Endorsement of Heaps or Indictment of Munns and Lark?

Just as it is with criticizing Bronco, Anae, or any one else associated with BYU Football, pointing out the fact that Heaps has a long way to go shouldn't be labeled as hating on the guy, especially after we have all had 6 games to watch him on the field.



As is usually the case, the truth is in the middle somewhere. Jake hasn't been as bad as his PER might indicate, but at the same time, it's naive to recalculate his PER by counting ALL drops as completions. Everyone drops balls--it happens in every game. Pitta dropped balls, Collie dropped balls, Jerry Rice dropped balls. When you count all of the drops, you end up with hypothetical 130 yard drives with 3 tds. It's stupid to hypothesize what the PER would be if all the balls were caught--because if one ball is caught, it changes the entire game going forward and a number of the later passes would never be thrown.



What kills me is the people who come on and bag on Nelson--who managed a better PER and more passing touchdowns with the same lousy receiving corps. You can't have it both ways--if Nelson was lousy, and the receivers are lousy, what does that say about Heaps if Nelson was a more effective passer despite his flaws? What it says is that Heaps may be more skilled, but he hasn't figured out how to use those skills at this level effectively yet--just like any other true freshman QB. There's a reason true freshmen only start when there is simply no other viable option at QB--we're seeing that reason this season.



We saw with SDSU that he is much more effective with two-reads sets and fast timed routes to negate pressure, but we also saw that he is still learning the speed of the game with the pick he threw in the endzone--he either didn't see the defender on the underneath route, or he thought the defender couldn't cut back in time to get to the ball. Either way, a ball that shouldn't have been thrown. Again, Heaps is better than his PER, but he is still a very raw, very green QB. He has the tools to make the throws, but he still has not arrived yet. He is our guy for this season, but I expect a full blown battle for the starting QB spot in the Spring--with a starter named before Summer. The reason we haven't seen Heaps or Lark at this point is simply because they aren't game-ready. Once Nelson went down, all the practice snaps went to Heaps to get him ready for the show. The only other QB in camp getting snaps is Marshall, who is getting his snaps as the scout team QB and as the option guy. We have proverbially put all of our eggs into the Heaps basket at this point, win, lose, or draw.

airattack wrote:
frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if all you are going to do on this board as a poster is to call people out for criticizing Jake and insinuating that they are biased or unreasonable, maybe you should tell the forum what your interest is with Heaps, just in the interest of full disclosure.

snoscythe wrote:

frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if all you are going to do on this board as a poster is to call people out for criticizing Jake and insinuating that they are biased or unreasonable, maybe you should tell the forum what your interest is with Heaps, just in the interest of full disclosure.

Airattack is a relative of Jake heaps. My guess is he is Heaps Father. Which makes me feel bad that he thinks that I can be counted on to "bag" on heaps. My observations are not bagging on the guy. I just find myself in the peculiar position of defending some realistic observations about his poor play to some fans that are turning a blind eye to his play at the expense of other players and coaches, which in turn makes it sound like I am criticizing Heaps. It has been very frustrating for me. I would have expected that some of y'all would have been more reasonable and recognized what is happening for what it is. But I guess I expected too much.

frdbtr wrote:
Airattack is a relative of Jake heaps. My guess is he is Heaps Father. Which makes me feel bad that he thinks that I can be counted on to "bag" on heaps. My observations are not bagging on the guy. I just find myself in the peculiar position of defending some realistic observations about his poor play to some fans that are turning a blind eye to his play at the expense of other players and coaches, which in turn makes it sound like I am criticizing Heaps. It has been very frustrating for me. I would have expected that some of y'all would have been more reasonable and recognized what is happening for what it is. But I guess I expected too much.

Some of us have been. :)

byutx wrote:
Why no mention of Matt Marshall? He has the best passing efficiency rating and completion percentage of anyone!



I'm trying to be nicer on the board and in life. So I will not comment on the quality of the initial post in this thread, nor will I nominate it as the dumbest and most uninformed post possibly ever on cougarcorner. I won't even say that it's at least top 5 in that category.

I think we are making progress here! ;)

frdbtr wrote:

airattack wrote:
frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if all you are going to do on this board as a poster is to call people out for criticizing Jake and insinuating that they are biased or unreasonable, maybe you should tell the forum what your interest is with Heaps, just in the interest of full disclosure.

Airattack is a relative of Jake heaps. My guess is he is Heaps Father. Which makes me feel bad that he thinks that I can be counted on to "bag" on heaps. My observations are not bagging on the guy. I just find myself in the peculiar position of defending some realistic observations about his poor play to some fans that are turning a blind eye to his play at the expense of other players and coaches, which in turn makes it sound like I am criticizing Heaps. It has been very frustrating for me. I would have expected that some of y'all would have been more reasonable and recognized what is happening for what it is. But I guess I expected too much.

Frdbtr, I think you have made some good points. The one thing that I do not think is acknowledged is the "poor play" needs to be in context. We pretty much ended up throwing Jake to the lions. Maybe that is too strong a word, but to ask a true freshman to take over a very sophisticated offense in a season where there are fewer than normal seniors to carry the offensive load, and ask him to play against a top five SOS is asking the impossible almost. That is why in the context that I see things I am pleased with where Heaps is at. can he do better? yes. Will he do better? yes Can we reasonably expect him to do better than he has? For me the answer is no. Perhaps others will disagree.

BoiseBYU wrote:
Frdbtr, I think you have made some good points. The one thing that I do not think is acknowledged is the "poor play" needs to be in context. We pretty much ended up throwing Jake to the lions. Maybe that is too strong a word, but to ask a true freshman to take over a very sophisticated offense in a season where there are fewer than normal seniors to carry the offensive load, and ask him to play against a top five SOS is asking the impossible almost. That is why in the context that I see things I am pleased with where Heaps is at. can he do better? yes. Will he do better? yes Can we reasonably expect him to do better than he has? For me the answer is no. Perhaps others will disagree.

I can't disagree with anything here. I haven't been meaning to say that Heaps is a bad QB and there have been unusual circumstances that have contributed to his poor play but he is still playing poorly. My irritation is with guys who are absolving Heaps of all blame on how poorly the offense playing. I completely agree with you that I think he will play better. I also think that he would have had better numbers if the defense had done its job earlier in the season and taken pressure off of him and allowed the offense to play a more ball controlled offense. The two 24-3 halftime defecits that BYU has found themselves in retarded his growth very badly IMO.

frdbtr wrote:

Frdbtr, I think you have made some good points. The one thing that I do not think is acknowledged is the "poor play" needs to be in context. We pretty much ended up throwing Jake to the lions. Maybe that is too strong a word, but to ask a true freshman to take over a very sophisticated offense in a season where there are fewer than normal seniors to carry the offensive load, and ask him to play against a top five SOS is asking the impossible almost. That is why in the context that I see things I am pleased with where Heaps is at. can he do better? yes. Will he do better? yes Can we reasonably expect him to do better than he has? For me the answer is no. Perhaps others will disagree.

I can't disagree with anything here. I haven't been meaning to say that Heaps is a bad QB and there have been unusual circumstances that have contributed to his poor play but he is still playing poorly. My irritation is with guys who are absolving Heaps of all blame on how poorly the offense playing. I completely agree with you that I think he will play better. I also think that he would have had better numbers if the defense had done its job earlier in the season and taken pressure off of him and allowed the offense to play a more ball controlled offense. The two 24-3 halftime defecits that BYU has found themselves in retarded his growth very badly IMO.

Thanks for the feedback. I am NO EXPERT, but from where I stand, I think Heaps has done about all one could realistically hope a freshman QB could do. As an absolute, Heaps has not done well. But in context, I think he had done quite well. Anyways, I think things will continue to get better..maybe not this week :bug: but who knows?

Isola wrote:
Let me first say, I really like Heaps and how he is developing. In the Washington game he rocketed just about all the passes whether they needed more touch on them or not, but for the most part he has gotten away from that. Then in the USU game after a drop he rifled a pass on third down when it needed touch, but he has really gotten away from that. I bring these up not to say he isn't good but rather to say that he is clearly eliminating early mistakes. I also remember a play when a lineman was getting into it with an opponent after the play and Heaps ran down and grabbed the lineman by the chest and pulled him away...a clear leader. I am loving it and makes me look forward to future years.



But I would be really disappointed if we never see what Munns can do, although I am admittedly partial since he is a local. Still, a 6'5" 250 QB who was a 4 star recruit...I want to see what he can do.

Don't worry, you can see him play at Oregon State, Washington St., Washington, or wherever he decides to play in 2012. I don't think Lark and Munns are staying after this year. The coaches are basically telling them that they are worse than a QB with the 5th-worst passer rating in the country. We are going to be really deep at QB come 2012...

Nobody was ever critical of Nelson's numbers they were critical of the fact that he has a weak and inaccurate arm, and that he does not fit in at all with BYU offensively. Quit trying to make apples out of oranges. If we were Yewtah State, I'd love the idea of Nelson at the helm.

livin the dream wrote:
It bothers me to see posts like this that cast all the blame on the quarterback. Calling Heap's offense "unbearable" to watch...really? Are you watching the games? He has a great arm, motion, pocket presence, etc. He doesn't look like a true freshman at all (even though he had to split reps in spring and fall camps). When I watch him throw, I start thinking about how great the cougars could be by next year or (fingers crossed) by the end of the season.



Over the past couple of years I remember reading countless posts complaining about Max Hall, and how he was the cause of all BYU's problems. I always enjoyed watching Max throw with ridiculous accuracy, and pick apart defenses. Sure he had a rough game here and there, but are there any quarterbacks that haven't had a rough game??? I wonder what all the Max haters are thinking now that he is STARTING in the NFL, and WINNING!



Give the kid a chance to show what he's got before you kick him to curb (as you probably wanted to do with Max). It's not Heap's fault his receivers are terrible this season, and the defense (before SDSU) couldn't get opposing offenses off the field.

I didn't call it unbearable to watch. I called it unwatchable. And it's not Heaps' offense, it's BYU's offense. And you're right about a great arm and motion, but his pocket presence resembles that of a stud high schoolers. This will obviously improve. I don't want to kick Jake to the curb. The whole reason for my post was to see why we don't give Munns a look. I know the receivers have been brutal (which I clearly stated), but Jake has also missed pretty easy throws as well.

byutx wrote:
Why no mention of Matt Marshall? He has the best passing efficiency rating and completion percentage of anyone!



I'm trying to be nicer on the board and in life. So I will not comment on the quality of the initial post in this thread, nor will I nominate it as the dumbest and most uninformed post possibly ever on cougarcorner. I won't even say that it's at least top 5 in that category.

That's good because it would be incredibly sideways to knock a guy for contemplating the potential of Jason Munns, a highly touted QB with many similarities to Kellen Moore.

Isola wrote:
Let me first say, I really like Heaps and how he is developing. In the Washington game he rocketed just about all the passes whether they needed more touch on them or not, but for the most part he has gotten away from that. Then in the USU game after a drop he rifled a pass on third down when it needed touch, but he has really gotten away from that. I bring these up not to say he isn't good but rather to say that he is clearly eliminating early mistakes. I also remember a play when a lineman was getting into it with an opponent after the play and Heaps ran down and grabbed the lineman by the chest and pulled him away...a clear leader. I am loving it and makes me look forward to future years.



But I would be really disappointed if we never see what Munns can do, although I am admittedly partial since he is a local. Still, a 6'5" 250 QB who was a 4 star recruit...I want to see what he can do.

Thank you for actually reading the initial post instead of stopping upon reading that "the anointed one" doesn't look like we had envisioned...so far.

byutx wrote:

How could you miss the biggest fact/opinion of all:

Fact: the coaches' decision to go with the 2-QB system screwed us big time and cost us at least one game, possibly 2



Opinion: this is the biggest non-Crowton mistake by a BYU coach in the modern era

Opinion: it is the single biggest factor in our offensive and team ineptitude

That's a money response. Brilliant!

frdbtr wrote:

airattack wrote:
frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if all you are going to do on this board as a poster is to call people out for criticizing Jake and insinuating that they are biased or unreasonable, maybe you should tell the forum what your interest is with Heaps, just in the interest of full disclosure.

Airattack is a relative of Jake heaps. My guess is he is Heaps Father. Which makes me feel bad that he thinks that I can be counted on to "bag" on heaps. My observations are not bagging on the guy. I just find myself in the peculiar position of defending some realistic observations about his poor play to some fans that are turning a blind eye to his play at the expense of other players and coaches, which in turn makes it sound like I am criticizing Heaps. It has been very frustrating for me. I would have expected that some of y'all would have been more reasonable and recognized what is happening for what it is. But I guess I expected too much.

Word. And I hope it's not his Dad. I just wish people would chill about the ludicrous notion that maybe, perhaps, possibly Jake has some room for improvement and maybe warm to the idea of "can we give Munns a look?"

cougman wrote:

Why no mention of Matt Marshall? He has the best passing efficiency rating and completion percentage of anyone!



I'm trying to be nicer on the board and in life. So I will not comment on the quality of the initial post in this thread, nor will I nominate it as the dumbest and most uninformed post possibly ever on cougarcorner. I won't even say that it's at least top 5 in that category.

That's good because it would be incredibly sideways to knock a guy for contemplating the potential of Jason Munns, a highly touted QB with many similarities to Kellen Moore.

My comments really had little to do with Munns or Lark (both of which were unfit to lead the team this season) but were rather directed at your idiotic notion that we already need to look at benching Heaps. I'm sure you were one of the guys calling for Max Hall's head after his 1-2 start in 2007, right? I guess we'll never know because you're new.

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:
Why no mention of Matt Marshall? He has the best passing efficiency rating and completion percentage of anyone!



I'm trying to be nicer on the board and in life. So I will not comment on the quality of the initial post in this thread, nor will I nominate it as the dumbest and most uninformed post possibly ever on cougarcorner. I won't even say that it's at least top 5 in that category.

That's good because it would be incredibly sideways to knock a guy for contemplating the potential of Jason Munns, a highly touted QB with many similarities to Kellen Moore.

My comments really had little to do with Munns or Lark (both of which were unfit to lead the team this season) but were rather directed at your idiotic notion that we already need to look at benching Heaps. I'm sure you were one of the guys calling for Max Hall's head after his 1-2 start in 2007, right? I guess we'll never know because you're new.

I know your comments had little to do with Munns or Lark, which is why your response was below poopy.



I don't think I went after Max. Although, he followed one of my all time favorites in Beck (is there a better play than ripping the Utes heart out by finding Harline wide open?), so I could have been a little hard on him but I guess you could look at my posts at cougarblue for the past 5 years or so.



If it's idiotic to consider making a change at 1-4, I'm guilty. Apparently you're cool with BYU performing at a high level of mediocrity. Myself on the other hand, I want more than 1-4 and poor play by the ENTIRE offense. Why not explore some options.

Benching heaps is a stupid idea. Heaps definitely has room to improve and anyone watching the games can see he is getting noticeably better each game. The excitement of the team this year comes from the improvements we see from all the young players we have and realize how good they will become. If these players were juniors or seniors and still playing at this level it would be dissappointing and discouraging. I am not at all discouraged by our players, except for the receivers. If you have given up on heaps at this point in the season you either don't understand football and player development or you have something personal against heaps (or bias in favor of Munns/Lark).



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I agree that benching Heaps is a dumb idea at this point. We have put all of our eggs into the Heaps basket, and the only two QBs getting meaningful reps are Heaps and Marshall (who gets them with the scout team and the option package). To bench Heaps would mean starting all over from scratch with Munns or Lark, or going with Marshall as the number one option. Until Heaps gets to where he physically cannot perform, any of those options are a massive step backward for the development of the TEAM.



We've all complained about the two-QB system, but to switch our horse at this point would simply reintroduce all of the confusion that the offense finally is showing signs of working out. Heaps has a long way to go if he wants to pin down next year's starting position by his play this season, but he is our guy for this season with no room for discussion at this point.