Endorsement of Heaps or Indictment of Munns and Lark?

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:
People need to realize that Heaps is far behind where he would be now had the coaches not bungled the QB indecision. If stubborn Anae had given up the notion that Riley could be the guy, even in a 2-QB system, thus giving Heaps a full fall camp to get ready, then he would be far ahead of where he is now.



Don't underestimate the value of 50-60 hour weeks in fall camp with all the reps and the opporrunity for the offense gel. As it is, we basically hit the reset button on offense right around the FSU game, but it wasn't possible to have a full reset with a full fall camp. Nobody can know how our record would be different if Jake was rightly given a full chance starting out the gate, but I don't think we would have lost to USU, at least.



We are still a couple weeks away from where Jake should be ready for WEEK 1 of the regular season. I don't foresee him being really ready to go until, at the earliest, the last 2 weeks of the season.

I will become less willing to give him a pass on the whole "he didn't get enough reps in fall camp" if he doesn't carve up the dregs of the MWC with his passing. Like I posted in an earlier post in this thread. Matt Berry joined fall camp right after his mission, took over as starting qb half way through the year and had a 121 PER in 2002 with IMO the smallest and slowest recievers BYU has ever had. If Jake Heaps struggles against teams like UNLV, I am going to have a hard time giving him a pass anymore.

Did these smaller, slower receivers drop as many passes as our receivers?

Was Matt Berry barely 19 years old in the middle of a crap storm of unprecedented coaching debacles?

Cherry picking variables is really lame.

Matt Marshall has a better PER this season, so should he be the guy right now?

Let me think.....Crowton vs Bronco. Hmmmm. I would think that 2002 and 2003 are looked at as the worst coaching years in recent BYU history so I would think that this year Heaps is in a better situation, coaching wise, then Berry. I don't know off the top of my head how many balls were dropped by Berry's recievers but if you look at the talent pool, once again, Heaps has the upper hand there. If Heaps can't get it done against NM, CSU, UNLV, and Wyoming, then IMO he is not the answer at QB. You can blame the recievers and coaching all you want but the bottom line is these same recievers didn't have trouble holding onto the ball when it was being thrown by Max hall last year. And all of you all that are telling me that I can't compare Heaps to Max Hall because Max Hall is now in the NFL are proving my point for me.

While overall, you are correct, I think the 2-guy system was worse than any football-related decision Crowton ever made. Also, you can be sure that the 02 DC didn't give up.



But you're right. Maybe Popke from Necessary Roughness has some elegibility yet. Or the nerdy kid from Little Giants-or even Icebox.



I'm done with this topic. Anyone that thinks that the single biggest factor in our offensive struggles isn't the 2 QB decision doesn't have the mental capacity to understand much.



Who do you guys think Bronco is talking about when he says "uneducated fans"?

Sorry, we all forgot you are the ultimate educated fan.



And whether he admits it or not Bronco was part of that decision, so maybe he part of this uneducated fans circle that obviously doesn't include yourself. I still don't think that the 2QB thing would have been an issue if the rest of the issues BYU is dealing with weren't crippling the team this year.

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:
People need to realize that Heaps is far behind where he would be now had the coaches not bungled the QB indecision. If stubborn Anae had given up the notion that Riley could be the guy, even in a 2-QB system, thus giving Heaps a full fall camp to get ready, then he would be far ahead of where he is now.



Don't underestimate the value of 50-60 hour weeks in fall camp with all the reps and the opporrunity for the offense gel. As it is, we basically hit the reset button on offense right around the FSU game, but it wasn't possible to have a full reset with a full fall camp. Nobody can know how our record would be different if Jake was rightly given a full chance starting out the gate, but I don't think we would have lost to USU, at least.



We are still a couple weeks away from where Jake should be ready for WEEK 1 of the regular season. I don't foresee him being really ready to go until, at the earliest, the last 2 weeks of the season.

I will become less willing to give him a pass on the whole "he didn't get enough reps in fall camp" if he doesn't carve up the dregs of the MWC with his passing. Like I posted in an earlier post in this thread. Matt Berry joined fall camp right after his mission, took over as starting qb half way through the year and had a 121 PER in 2002 with IMO the smallest and slowest recievers BYU has ever had. If Jake Heaps struggles against teams like UNLV, I am going to have a hard time giving him a pass anymore.

Did these smaller, slower receivers drop as many passes as our receivers?

Was Matt Berry barely 19 years old in the middle of a crap storm of unprecedented coaching debacles?

Cherry picking variables is really lame.

Matt Marshall has a better PER this season, so should he be the guy right now?

Let me think.....Crowton vs Bronco. Hmmmm. I would think that 2002 and 2003 are looked at as the worst coaching years in recent BYU history so I would think that this year Heaps is in a better situation, coaching wise, then Berry. I don't know off the top of my head how many balls were dropped by Berry's recievers but if you look at the talent pool, once again, Heaps has the upper hand there. If Heaps can't get it done against NM, CSU, UNLV, and Wyoming, then IMO he is not the answer at QB. You can blame the recievers and coaching all you want but the bottom line is these same recievers didn't have trouble holding onto the ball when it was being thrown by Max hall last year. And all of you all that are telling me that I can't compare Heaps to Max Hall because Max Hall is now in the NFL are proving my point for me.

While overall, you are correct, I think the 2-guy system was worse than any football-related decision Crowton ever made. Also, you can be sure that the 02 DC didn't give up.



But you're right. Maybe Popke from Necessary Roughness has some elegibility yet. Or the nerdy kid from Little Giants-or even Icebox.



I'm done with this topic. Anyone that thinks that the single biggest factor in our offensive struggles isn't the 2 QB decision doesn't have the mental capacity to understand much.



Who do you guys think Bronco is talking about when he says "uneducated fans"?

We haven't rotated QB's since the second half of the AF game. Heaps has had ALL the reps since the FSU game. The 2 QB system is over. I hate to keep bringing up Berry but he is the perfect example of BYU fans turning on a good QB. 2002 started with Engeman, went to a 2 QB system with Engeman and peterson, when that failed, they went to Berry who had just returned from his mission right before fall practice (kinda like Munns who has not seen a sniff of a snap any time this year) and he played miles better then our #1 rated QB out of high school. This whole conversation has irritated me. I started out just hinting that maybe, just maybe it wasn't all on the recievers and now I am posting on how bad Heaps has played. I still think he is going to be special but I got sick of hearing how everyone else is the reason why Heaps is playing bad. Heaps is the reason Heaps is playing bad and it will be up to him to correct it. When he starts playing like he is capable, I can guarantee you that the rest of the offense will start looking better.

Dang guys...about six pages ago I thought we agreed that for a true freshamn, Heaps has done about as well as one could hope or expect? Guess that understanding went up in smoke. I think that is true. I do not think that the OLine or the receivers have done as well as can be expected I think all in all the running backs have. If all had done what we could reasonably expect, I think we would be ahead of where we are. Not where we want to be. But where we are. Might still be 2-4 because of lots of other issues in any event. Peace out

I do agree that Heaps is doing well for a True Freshman generally, and very well for a True Freshman with a supporting cast on offense that replaces

2 NFL quality Tight Ends with a chorus of freshmen,

A rookie QB who beat defending super bowl champs in first NFL start with said TRUE FRESHMAN QB,

1 of our better fullbacks in history with a newbie - walk on level fullback (Mendenhall) and a solid but not spectacular RB Kariya serving as a FB at times (the guy most of you want benched in favor of freshman JUICE),

The best running back in BYU history with a promising but minimally experienced, somewhat fumble-prone RB DiLuigi (if his latest fumble had been called - we R 1-5 most likely), and

A new center (ask Oklahoma what kind of problems this can cause for QB protection based on last year vs us), and

Experienced but not spectacular cast of receivers who now have the dropsies.

Oh and a mediocre defense and inconsistent special teams - especially punting, grad assistant coach just promoted when someone retired during fall camp, and defensive coordinator that had to be fired.

What I don't agree with is the assertion that if the idiot coaches had just done this or that we would have won more games. The idiot coaches did not have much to work with in the early going.

I don't agree that Heaps, having just squeaked by SDSU in week 6, perhaps due to a fumble not called on DiLuigi, although Heaps did look much improved for the early part of the game, would have played like that vs UW in week 1 with absolutely no game experience because of having gotten more snaps in Fall Camp. Snaps in Fall Camp do not slow the game down for you like a Top 20 defense in your face does.

I don't agree that the 2-QB system is the stupidest thing a coach has ever done at BYU. I have been told directly by a star defensive player for UW that it gave them problems and they could not stop it. Otherwise, I am not sure Nelson would have won that game and I know Heaps would not have.

Since you asked, BYU TX, I am sure that Bronco means you and another person I have been asked not to single out, and won't since he didn't ask, and every other poster that thinks they know more than coaches that are actually good enough to get hired and paid to do this for a living. I think he especially means those that seem to grossly misunderstand the value of experience.

For the record - I am fully on the Heaps bandwagon. And TX you may want to read more than the first sentence of my [post if you assumed otherwise. Heaps is getting experience – will likely be drinking it from a fire hose this Saturday.

The game for Heaps should be half speed for the 4 weeks after that and he should inspire you and others to post more nonsense of what might have been, because the entire BYU team should look like world beaters - after Saturday for 4 weeks, and then they will all become stupid, slow, bad hands, can't separate, can't jump, too short, etc. against the U.



It is called Level of Competition.



But by the time we get to play Utah Heaps and some other key people will have 5 more weeks of EXPERIENCE and baptism by fire, this Saturday. Maybe that is enough to sneak up on Utah who will likely have had a tough game or two by then - maybe tough enough to bang them up a little. But then Utah does have two QBs that can play.



Pray that Heaps gets protection tomorrow. We do not want to start over with Lark or Munns at this point.

frdbtr wrote:
This whole conversation has irritated me. I started out just hinting that maybe, just maybe it wasn't all on the recievers and now I am posting on how bad Heaps has played. .

Your problem is that you combined 2 distinct arguments and got yourself confused. You cited stats to prove your claim that Heaps is not doing very well. Another poster showed the number of solid drops, lost yardage, and lost scores that were due to receiver error. When you add those stats back Heaps looks pretty dang good for a freshman Q. But you couldn't see how drops and the offense led by Heaps are 2 different things. So you followed up with a nonsensical argument about how maybe Heaps timing or other intangible factors contributed to the drops. This is where you confused yourself.



2 arguments:



1. Drops (subset of the offense): 100% the receivers' fault. You cannot place any blame on Heaps for timing issues or whatever. 2 hands is a catch--the stats show he has lost hundreds of yards and multiple TD's due to their pathetic play. This is only one component of the offensive production, but severely impacts confidence, momentum, and rhythm.



2. Sucky offense (generally speaking): Heaps is certainly culpable. He is a freaking Freshman! Nobody is claiming that this kid is a God and he may never be that good. We'll find out. Blame him all you want, but you'll have to let us all know who the playmakers are around him that would make our offense go if only Heaps got him/her the ball. I would love to find out.

mizzoucoug wrote:

This whole conversation has irritated me. I started out just hinting that maybe, just maybe it wasn't all on the recievers and now I am posting on how bad Heaps has played. .

Your problem is that you combined 2 distinct arguments and got yourself confused. You cited stats to prove your claim that Heaps is not doing very well. Another poster showed the number of solid drops, lost yardage, and lost scores that were due to receiver error. When you add those stats back Heaps looks pretty dang good for a freshman Q. But you couldn't see how drops and the offense led by Heaps are 2 different things. So you followed up with a nonsensical argument about how maybe Heaps timing or other intangible factors contributed to the drops. This is where you confused yourself.



2 arguments:



1. Drops (subset of the offense): 100% the receivers' fault. You cannot place any blame on Heaps for timing issues or whatever. 2 hands is a catch--the stats show he has lost hundreds of yards and multiple TD's due to their pathetic play. This is only one component of the offensive production, but severely impacts confidence, momentum, and rhythm.



2. Sucky offense (generally speaking): Heaps is certainly culpable. He is a freaking Freshman! Nobody is claiming that this kid is a God and he may never be that good. We'll find out. Blame him all you want, but you'll have to let us all know who the playmakers are around him that would make our offense go if only Heaps got him/her the ball. I would love to find out.

And you still haven't answered my question on how one of the worst QB's in BYU history (Berry) was able to look better with a worse supporting cast, and how these same recievers were able to catch Max Halls throws last year with no problem.

Here are the facts, I don't doubt anyone will disagree with me on this, but it's what I believe to be true.



First off the coaches messed up with the 2 QB system. But I still believe that Crowton's handling of the Beck/Berry situation.

The receivers have had an inexcusable number of drops and have disappointed overall.

Some of the blame lies at the hand of a true freshman, who has mistimed some of his throws and made a few bad decisions.

Luckily this same freshman has improved from game to game and will hopefully show dramatic improvement as we start playing some of the cupcakes on our schedule.



What is the distributions of blame? 60-40 for the receivers? 80-20? We'll never know, and it doesn't matter as long as it gets fixed.

frdbtr wrote:

frdbtr wrote:
This whole conversation has irritated me. I started out just hinting that maybe, just maybe it wasn't all on the recievers and now I am posting on how bad Heaps has played. .

Your problem is that you combined 2 distinct arguments and got yourself confused. You cited stats to prove your claim that Heaps is not doing very well. Another poster showed the number of solid drops, lost yardage, and lost scores that were due to receiver error. When you add those stats back Heaps looks pretty dang good for a freshman Q. But you couldn't see how drops and the offense led by Heaps are 2 different things. So you followed up with a nonsensical argument about how maybe Heaps timing or other intangible factors contributed to the drops. This is where you confused yourself.



2 arguments:



1. Drops (subset of the offense): 100% the receivers' fault. You cannot place any blame on Heaps for timing issues or whatever. 2 hands is a catch--the stats show he has lost hundreds of yards and multiple TD's due to their pathetic play. This is only one component of the offensive production, but severely impacts confidence, momentum, and rhythm.



2. Sucky offense (generally speaking): Heaps is certainly culpable. He is a freaking Freshman! Nobody is claiming that this kid is a God and he may never be that good. We'll find out. Blame him all you want, but you'll have to let us all know who the playmakers are around him that would make our offense go if only Heaps got him/her the ball. I would love to find out.

And you still haven't answered my question on how one of the worst QB's in BYU history (Berry) was able to look better with a worse supporting cast, and how these same recievers were able to catch Max Halls throws last year with no problem.

Ugh. So basically you're asking for a loose and useless "comparison?"



Give it up man, you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper, and it's beginning to look desperate.

hawkwing wrote:
Here are the facts, I don't doubt anyone will disagree with me on this, but it's what I believe to be true.



First off the coaches messed up with the 2 QB system. But I still believe that Crowton's handling of the Beck/Berry situation.

The receivers have had an inexcusable number of drops and have disappointed overall.

Some of the blame lies at the hand of a true freshman, who has mistimed some of his throws and made a few bad decisions.

Luckily this same freshman has improved from game to game and will hopefully show dramatic improvement as we start playing some of the cupcakes on our schedule.



What is the distributions of blame? 60-40 for the receivers? 80-20? We'll never know, and it doesn't matter as long as it gets fixed.

My point exactly.

Italics wrote:

mizzoucoug wrote:

This whole conversation has irritated me. I started out just hinting that maybe, just maybe it wasn't all on the recievers and now I am posting on how bad Heaps has played. .

Your problem is that you combined 2 distinct arguments and got yourself confused. You cited stats to prove your claim that Heaps is not doing very well. Another poster showed the number of solid drops, lost yardage, and lost scores that were due to receiver error. When you add those stats back Heaps looks pretty dang good for a freshman Q. But you couldn't see how drops and the offense led by Heaps are 2 different things. So you followed up with a nonsensical argument about how maybe Heaps timing or other intangible factors contributed to the drops. This is where you confused yourself.



2 arguments:



1. Drops (subset of the offense): 100% the receivers' fault. You cannot place any blame on Heaps for timing issues or whatever. 2 hands is a catch--the stats show he has lost hundreds of yards and multiple TD's due to their pathetic play. This is only one component of the offensive production, but severely impacts confidence, momentum, and rhythm.



2. Sucky offense (generally speaking): Heaps is certainly culpable. He is a freaking Freshman! Nobody is claiming that this kid is a God and he may never be that good. We'll find out. Blame him all you want, but you'll have to let us all know who the playmakers are around him that would make our offense go if only Heaps got him/her the ball. I would love to find out.

And you still haven't answered my question on how one of the worst QB's in BYU history (Berry) was able to look better with a worse supporting cast, and how these same recievers were able to catch Max Halls throws last year with no problem.

Ugh. So basically you're asking for a loose and useless "comparison?"



Give it up man, you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper, and it's beginning to look desperate.

If my comparison's are so crappy, how come no one has even tried to refute them. I have maintained that the drops are not all heaps fault but I introduced the idea that maybe there are issue with timing in the offense that have contributed to recievers dropping passes that they have caught in the past. No one has refuted this. Max Hall is a good QB, we have evidence to support that. Jacobsen didn't drop John Beck's passes in 2006 either, when he was a true freshman. We have evidence to support that Beck was a very good QB. Now all of a sudden, Jacobsen is horrible, Ashworth couldn't catch a cold and Chambers is non existant. All these guys caught many balls from Max Hall last year and didn't seem to struggle with handling the passes. Yes, we do miss our NFL TE's and our all time leading rusher but JJ has been a real man running the football. I have said it 1000 times on this board this week, the problems are going to be worked out, but I am sick of all the blame getting spread to everyone but the guy throwing the ball.

frdbtr wrote:

Here are the facts, I don't doubt anyone will disagree with me on this, but it's what I believe to be true.



First off the coaches messed up with the 2 QB system. But I still believe that Crowton's handling of the Beck/Berry situation.

The receivers have had an inexcusable number of drops and have disappointed overall.

Some of the blame lies at the hand of a true freshman, who has mistimed some of his throws and made a few bad decisions.

Luckily this same freshman has improved from game to game and will hopefully show dramatic improvement as we start playing some of the cupcakes on our schedule.



What is the distributions of blame? 60-40 for the receivers? 80-20? We'll never know, and it doesn't matter as long as it gets fixed.

My point exactly.

Is that your point? Exactly? Cause I've been trying to figure out just what you are saying through 9 pages. It's not going well for me thus far.

Yay! It is less than 24 hours til game time...maybe this thread will die.

http://astoriedcareer.com/rip.gif" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Fried Butter



Logic confuses some of these guys when it refutes what they want to believe. It is a carryover preseason. It is the guys that believed or even obsessed that Heaps would win the Heisman 4 years in a row starting this year with Apo coming in 2nd, Van NOy coming in 3rd, and Juice coming in 4th. Stout and Keoshian would tie for the Butkus award - this year. Drew Phillips would take every punt and kick-off to the house. All in 2010. We would not have to just settle for a BCS Bowl or two like Utah with wins over Bama and whomever it was they beat the first time - PItt?, but BYU would win the NC because we are BYU, Magic Happens, and we are living right. They are the same guys tha tused to think Logan was lousy and to short. THey are the guys that think it is all about speed and athleticism and put absolutely no weight on experience. they believe it is all simple and black and white.



They just cannot accept that BYU is not that good this year and in any given year is not going to beat absolutley anybody they play no matter where they play them. They just cannot deal with it. So now, that devolves into, after much finger pointing in every direction, that if this or if that, Jake would have started and we would have won them all. They cannot let go of the reality, reality, reality of who we are.



They assume we could get any coach we want or any player we want if this and if that.



Save your breath with logic and reason - never piss into a strong wind. It doesn't work.



Now, I have to remind myself of the same advice.



Go Cougs

Wow cougar bib, that is a pretty disrespectful indictment of your fellow CC brethren. Many of us have differing opinions than you or frdbtr and it doesn't make us any less realists or any less correct in our opinions because we aren't swayed to your thinking after 8, 9 or even 10 pages now. 5 or 6 pages ago it would have been a good time to realize there is a difference of opinion on this and rehashing it over and over again is not going to bring anyone around to your version of reality.



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BYULV wrote:
Wow cougar bib, that is a pretty disrespectful indictment of your fellow CC brethren. Many of us have differing opinions than you or frdbtr and it doesn't make us any less realists or any less correct in our opinions because we aren't swayed to your thinking after 8, 9 or even 10 pages now. 5 or 6 pages ago it would have been a good time to realize there is a difference of opinion on this and rehashing it over and over again is not going to bring anyone around to your version of reality.



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It's actually nothing new. Cougar Bib can't let two threads go by without saying something disdainful and arrogant - at best in joke form. Different thread, same arrogant poster. It is starting to be like the sun rising. The only other constant is FordBeater picking out random people to argue with, and constantly ask them questions that have no correlation with the issue at hand. "You still didn't answer..." "You still didn't answer..." "Still you have failed to..."



You want to know why Berry looked "better" with "less"?



- He had an offensive co-ordinator actually worth 2 pennies, for starters. You know, the one currently at Oregon averaging 45 points a game, in easily the best offense in the nation?



- He wasn't a true freshman, had already had his mission. Are you telling me there won't be a difference between a 18 year old and 21 year old playing?



- He was playing patsies, with all the snaps of a starter. Heaps has played our toughest part of the schedule (11th strongest in the nation) with half the dnaps coming in. If you don't think there has been drastic improvement in his reads and mechanics from week to week since he has gotten all the snaps you are clearly not watching the game.



- There is a huge difference in not only the 2002-2003 quality of opponents, but also the quality of our in-conference opponents. It isn't hard to see that Air Force, SDSU, Utah State, are all better than they used to be 8 years ago. We should still beat them, true. But we would beat 2 if not 3 of them if we had a defense playing worth crap, and if Jake had his rhythm of now, then.



There are others, but that should give you enough to chew on.



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BlueIsBetter wrote:

Wow cougar bib, that is a pretty disrespectful indictment of your fellow CC brethren. Many of us have differing opinions than you or frdbtr and it doesn't make us any less realists or any less correct in our opinions because we aren't swayed to your thinking after 8, 9 or even 10 pages now. 5 or 6 pages ago it would have been a good time to realize there is a difference of opinion on this and rehashing it over and over again is not going to bring anyone around to your version of reality.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

It's actually nothing new. Cougar Bib can't let two threads go by without saying something disdainful and arrogant - at best in joke form. Different thread, same arrogant poster. It is starting to be like the sun rising. The only other constant is FordBeater picking out random people to argue with, and constantly ask them questions that have no correlation with the issue at hand. "You still didn't answer..." "You still didn't answer..." "Still you have failed to..."



You want to know why Berry looked "better" with "less"?



- He had an offensive co-ordinator actually worth 2 pennies, for starters. You know, the one currently at Oregon averaging 45 points a game, in easily the best offense in the nation?



- He wasn't a true freshman, had already had his mission. Are you telling me there won't be a difference between a 18 year old and 21 year old playing?



- He was playing patsies, with all the snaps of a starter. Heaps has played our toughest part of the schedule (11th strongest in the nation) with half the dnaps coming in. If you don't think there has been drastic improvement in his reads and mechanics from week to week since he has gotten all the snaps you are clearly not watching the game.



- There is a huge difference in not only the 2002-2003 quality of opponents, but also the quality of our in-conference opponents. It isn't hard to see that Air Force, SDSU, Utah State, are all better than they used to be 8 years ago. We should still beat them, true. But we would beat 2 if not 3 of them if we had a defense playing worth crap, and if Jake had his rhythm of now, then.



There are others, but that should give you enough to chew on.



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Crowton is not the Ocoordinator at Oregon, hasn't been for about 4 years. Berry got No practice snaps in the fall of 2002. Yes his competition wasn't what ours has been so far this year I will agree with that. I never said that Heaps was the entire problem, but I also don't think that the recievers and Robert Anae are the entire problem either. I am sick of all you heaps worshippers making excuses and not answering my legit questions. This is my last response on this subject in this or any other thread. Just remember, if Heaps fails against Wyoming, NM, UNLV, or CSU then he does not have what it takes to lead this team....period.

BYULV wrote:
...5 or 6 pages ago it would have been a good time to realize there is a difference of opinion on this and rehashing it over and over again is not going to bring anyone around...

I think this is the best advice/opinion on the matter. Going 5-6 pages good...still getting worked up after 10 pages, time to realize there is a difference of opinion and stop on the matter...That goes for everyone.