Endorsement of Heaps or Indictment of Munns and Lark?

Jake's numbers so far don't look so solid. Completing 53% (I guess it would be closer to 60% if we had anyone who could catch) at 4.8 yards per attempt and just 1 TD to 4 picks. Jordan Wynn completed 58% at 7.5 per attempt and had 8 TD's and 4 picks as a freshman. Is Bronco just going with him because he thinks/knows he'll be around next year and believes he'll develop into what we all hope and want? Or is this an indictment on Munns and Lark on how bad they are? With all the hype Munns had coming out of high school (see the picture of Munns in the middle standing next to Kellen Moore), I would have thought we might have at least had a look at him at this point. Has anyone seen him in practice? Munns Moore.jpg

I'm not trying to bail on Jake, but this offense is borderline unwatchable whenever they try and throw. I hope Jake gets a little help from his WR's and TE's or Munns or Lark get a shot.

you realize that both Lark and Munns are just back from their missions and were in no shape or ready to play D1 football. If either had been here last season, that player would likely be the QB.



Heaps is talented and exceptional and was thrust into the position because of circumstances. It was no indictment on Nelson, Lark, or Munns. It was just the circumstances.



Oh, and the qb at BSU started as a redshirt freshman, much different than Heaps circumstance.

I'm sure the receivers could find ways to drop balls thrown to their hands, chest and helmet from Lark or Munns just as well as Heaps.

WRs drop the ball so lets put in a new QB? Yeah, that makes sense...

This post is silly. I stopped reading it after the comparison to wynn who played patsies in his firsr games as opposed to who heaps has played against earlier on in his freshman season.



Given the coaching debacle heaps has had to endure as a freshamn I am impressed with how he has done. Once the game slows down for him he will be amazing. We know has has the intangibles as well as the skills. Just look at the situation he was put in. It was a recipe for disaster.



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anyone who is focusing too much on Jake's "poor" stats is not actually watching the games.



the receivers have been awful... not just at dropping the ball when it gets to them, but at even putting themselves in the position where they ARE open enough to have the ball thrown to them. I think it's impressive what Jake has done with so little help, especially considering that he was named the starter after we were already 25% through the season.



It really baffles me why some people just still don't get this. Or even HOW they don't get it.

cougman wrote:
Jake's numbers so far don't look so solid. Completing 53% (I guess it would be closer to 60% if we had anyone who could catch) at 4.8 yards per attempt and just 1 TD to 4 picks. Jordan Wynn completed 58% at 7.5 per attempt and had 8 TD's and 4 picks as a freshman. Is Bronco just going with him because he thinks/knows he'll be around next year and believes he'll develop into what we all hope and want? Or is this an indictment on Munns and Lark on how bad they are? With all the hype Munns had coming out of high school (see the picture of Munns in the middle standing next to Kellen Moore), I would have thought we might have at least had a look at him at this point. Has anyone seen him in practice? Munns Moore.jpg

I'm not trying to bail on Jake, but this offense is borderline unwatchable whenever they try and throw. I hope Jake gets a little help from his WR's and TE's or Munns or Lark get a shot.

Just a reference as far as the impact of dropped passes from the Utah State Game (which is the only one I could find an accurate count of dropped passes) Jake Heaps was 27/55 or 49% for 270 yards (4.9 yards per pass) with a Qb rating of 83.05. All of the news articles estimate the dropped passes at 11-13 with just under 200 yards and touchdown passes on 2 separate drives (there were 3 dropped TD passes but two were in back to back plays) . So if we take a low estimate 11 drops with 170 yards. That would have increased his stats to 38/55 or 69% completions for 440 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 141.02. If we go with the high estimates he would be 40/55 or 72% completions for 460 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 147.71.



I'm not sure how this would translate to the other games this season. But for at least one games the drops made a 50-70 point difference in Heaps QB rating and a 20% difference in completions. Several of the news reporters have said that these passes aren't dropped in practice, so if we can change that one stat Heaps goes from being a relatively bad QB to a pretty good one.

Mythranor wrote:

Jake's numbers so far don't look so solid. Completing 53% (I guess it would be closer to 60% if we had anyone who could catch) at 4.8 yards per attempt and just 1 TD to 4 picks. Jordan Wynn completed 58% at 7.5 per attempt and had 8 TD's and 4 picks as a freshman. Is Bronco just going with him because he thinks/knows he'll be around next year and believes he'll develop into what we all hope and want? Or is this an indictment on Munns and Lark on how bad they are? With all the hype Munns had coming out of high school (see the picture of Munns in the middle standing next to Kellen Moore), I would have thought we might have at least had a look at him at this point. Has anyone seen him in practice? Munns Moore.jpg

I'm not trying to bail on Jake, but this offense is borderline unwatchable whenever they try and throw. I hope Jake gets a little help from his WR's and TE's or Munns or Lark get a shot.

Just a reference as far as the impact of dropped passes from the Utah State Game (which is the only one I could find an accurate count of dropped passes) Jake Heaps was 27/55 or 49% for 270 yards (4.9 yards per pass) with a Qb rating of 83.05. All of the news articles estimate the dropped passes at 11-13 with just under 200 yards and touchdown passes on 2 separate drives (there were 3 dropped TD passes but two were in back to back plays) . So if we take a low estimate 11 drops with 170 yards. That would have increased his stats to 38/55 or 69% completions for 440 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 141.02. If we go with the high estimates he would be 40/55 or 72% completions for 460 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 147.71.



I'm not sure how this would translate to the other games this season. But for at least one games the drops made a 50-70 point difference in Heaps QB rating and a 20% difference in completions. Several of the news reporters have said that these passes aren't dropped in practice, so if we can change that one stat Heaps goes from being a relatively bad QB to a pretty good one.

Well done. Unfortunately there are still some fans who insist on seeing that Heaps share the blame for the drops, which is proof that they are social fans only and have no real grasp of this game. I think Heaps has overall been average at best in his play, but to look solely at stats to backup why he hasn't been great (True Freshman people!) is the wrong way to go as you have shown.

mizzoucoug wrote:

cougman wrote:
Jake's numbers so far don't look so solid. Completing 53% (I guess it would be closer to 60% if we had anyone who could catch) at 4.8 yards per attempt and just 1 TD to 4 picks. Jordan Wynn completed 58% at 7.5 per attempt and had 8 TD's and 4 picks as a freshman. Is Bronco just going with him because he thinks/knows he'll be around next year and believes he'll develop into what we all hope and want? Or is this an indictment on Munns and Lark on how bad they are? With all the hype Munns had coming out of high school (see the picture of Munns in the middle standing next to Kellen Moore), I would have thought we might have at least had a look at him at this point. Has anyone seen him in practice? Munns Moore.jpg

I'm not trying to bail on Jake, but this offense is borderline unwatchable whenever they try and throw. I hope Jake gets a little help from his WR's and TE's or Munns or Lark get a shot.

Just a reference as far as the impact of dropped passes from the Utah State Game (which is the only one I could find an accurate count of dropped passes) Jake Heaps was 27/55 or 49% for 270 yards (4.9 yards per pass) with a Qb rating of 83.05. All of the news articles estimate the dropped passes at 11-13 with just under 200 yards and touchdown passes on 2 separate drives (there were 3 dropped TD passes but two were in back to back plays) . So if we take a low estimate 11 drops with 170 yards. That would have increased his stats to 38/55 or 69% completions for 440 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 141.02. If we go with the high estimates he would be 40/55 or 72% completions for 460 yards or 11.5 yards per pass and a QB rating of 147.71.



I'm not sure how this would translate to the other games this season. But for at least one games the drops made a 50-70 point difference in Heaps QB rating and a 20% difference in completions. Several of the news reporters have said that these passes aren't dropped in practice, so if we can change that one stat Heaps goes from being a relatively bad QB to a pretty good one.

Well done. Unfortunately there are still some fans who insist on seeing that Heaps share the blame for the drops, which is proof that they are social fans only and have no real grasp of this game. I think Heaps has overall been average at best in his play, but to look solely at stats to backup why he hasn't been great (True Freshman people!) is the wrong way to go as you have shown.

Yes and to completely absolve the chosen one (heaps) from any blame for our offensive woes is ignorant at the very least.

frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

I tell my kids --- "Stupid is a bad word" --- but come on guys, this is the worst thread I've read in a long time. Jake's done good for what he's working with aka.... Anea play calling and worse...this years recievers.

If nothing else this thread should pop up at the end of the season for digestion.

airattack wrote:
frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if you have been lurking this board, you know that I don't "bag" on heaps. I have stated in multiple threads that I think he is talented and the future of the program. I am merely making observations based on what I am seeing in games. When I say that he is making improper reads of the defense and that he throws too early or too late at times, it is an observation, I am not trying to say that he needs to be benched or that he isn't capable of getting it done. I am merely stating my opinion on why I think that the offense is not performing the way that it is capable. I think that our offensive struggles are a result of poor coaching + poor execution by everyone on the offense including Heaps(at certain times).



My comments on Heaps being "the chosen one" are my frustration by certain posters who come onto the board and flame me for my opinions that don't only include Heaps but the rest of the offense (like stated above). It is amazing to me how Heaps has gotten a pass from the same types of fans that thought that QB's like John Walsh and Kevin Feterick were the worst QB's that ever took a snap from center when both of those guys had a higher PER rating then Heaps has. Matt Berry had a higher PER then heaps has. All this gets blamed on his recievers though who for some reason can't catch passes (when they had no trouble catching balls from Max Hall last year). Like I stated above, i think that Heaps is still learning and is going to be a very good QB but I get sick of hearing about how bad our recievers are, how bad our Oline is, and how bad coaching is when the guy that is throwing the ball is above reproach. It just doesn't make sense to me. So go ahead Missouri coug, flame away.

It bothers me to see posts like this that cast all the blame on the quarterback. Calling Heap's offense "unbearable" to watch...really? Are you watching the games? He has a great arm, motion, pocket presence, etc. He doesn't look like a true freshman at all (even though he had to split reps in spring and fall camps). When I watch him throw, I start thinking about how great the cougars could be by next year or (fingers crossed) by the end of the season.



Over the past couple of years I remember reading countless posts complaining about Max Hall, and how he was the cause of all BYU's problems. I always enjoyed watching Max throw with ridiculous accuracy, and pick apart defenses. Sure he had a rough game here and there, but are there any quarterbacks that haven't had a rough game??? I wonder what all the Max haters are thinking now that he is STARTING in the NFL, and WINNING!



Give the kid a chance to show what he's got before you kick him to curb (as you probably wanted to do with Max). It's not Heap's fault his receivers are terrible this season, and the defense (before SDSU) couldn't get opposing offenses off the field.

I disagree frdbtr. You are pretty consistent about making sure that everyone knows what Jake does wrong, and actually try to blame drops on him for throwing it too hard at times. Seriously, good receivers make plays on balls, whether an underhanded toss and a hard throw. Bringing up Max Hall is simply stupid. Max had Pitta, George, Collie, and Unga around him. Tell me what similar player Heaps has to actually get open and catch balls this year? Get back to us on that one. McKay has been average 2 years running, Ashworth worse than that for 2 years and Hafoka has really struggles since being ill last year. Chambers has been ok, but far from great, and Hoffman, Mahina, Matthews, Wilson, Muehlmann, etc are true freshman also, and simply not getting it done at the levels we are accustomed to. The receiving corps this year is subpar compared to last year and the year before, and it is not even debatable. Yet you continually compare Jake to Max, without bringing this up. Simply unfair, plus Jake a true freshman, For what Jake has to work with this year in the WR/TE skill positions, and for what he is showing on the field. He is good now, and will be great soon--barring injury.



Larks mission really came at a bad time because of his injury. Munns due to birthday. Had either had a year back after the mission, I'd bet one of them might be the guy and Jake would have pulled a RS. Harsh realities forced other plans.

Lawboy wrote:
I disagree frdbtr. You are pretty consistent about making sure that everyone knows what Jake does wrong, and actually try to blame drops on him for throwing it too hard at times. Seriously, good receivers make plays on balls, whether an underhanded toss and a hard throw. Bringing up Max Hall is simply stupid. Max had Pitta, George, Collie, and Unga around him. Tell me what similar player Heaps has to actually get open and catch balls this year? Get back to us on that one. McKay has been average 2 years running, Ashworth worse than that for 2 years and Hafoka has really struggles since being ill last year. Chambers has been ok, but far from great, and Hoffman, Mahina, Matthews, Wilson, Muehlmann, etc are true freshman also, and simply not getting it done at the levels we are accustomed to. The receiving corps this year is subpar compared to last year and the year before, and it is not even debatable. Yet you continually compare Jake to Max, without bringing this up. Simply unfair, plus Jake a true freshman, For what Jake has to work with this year in the WR/TE skill positions, and for what he is showing on the field. He is good now, and will be great soon--barring injury.



Larks mission really came at a bad time because of his injury. Munns due to birthday. Had either had a year back after the mission, I'd bet one of them might be the guy and Jake would have pulled a RS. Harsh realities forced other plans.

I have not "compared" Jake to Max Hall. I have simply asked the question as to why the same recievers were catching passes from Max that they are not catching from Jake. Did Mackay not catch a pass last year? Did Ashworth not catch a pass last year? Did Chambers not catch a pass last year? How many of Max's throws did they drop? I know that we can't answer the last question but I have watched replays of games from last year and guys didn't have balls bouncing off their hands all year last year. So either Max was getting them the ball on time and in the right place making it easier for them to catch or they just all forgot how to squeaze the ball when it gets to them this year.



Once again, I am not flaming Heaps. I have stated over, and over and over again that I think that things are going to improve with him over time. My ENTIRE point with pointing out that there may be more to the dropped passes then the recievers being the worst recievers BYU has ever had is because I don't believe that they are. I think that the problems with the offense are a combination of a freshman QB and his recievers not quite being on the same page + bad coaching. I think that things are going to improve.



One last question. Matt Berry is widely looked at as a failure of a QB for the cougars. His PER is higher then Heaps has been (he started as a freshman just a few months after returning from his mission in 2002). Who were his recievers? I just want to know since I believe that his #1 catching option in 2003 was Toby Christiensen. Do you think our recievers this year are worse then they were in 2003?

Based upon current stats and making plays, I'd say this group equal to the 2003 team, except 2003 had a more steady TE. They might be more physically talented than 2003, but they are not getting it done, and it is on them as a group. That 2003 team had an NFL QB on roster who played that year, 2 NFL fullbacks, an NFL TE that all contributed that year.



By the way, for your claim about passes being poorly thrown and dropped, not on time, of those 13 in the USU, go back and let me know which 13 were on Heaps in that way and back up your assertion. And them tell me of the 13 that were dropped, how many the coaches expected the receiver to pull in, because I think it would be 13. The fact is, the receiver group is not helping hte team by making lays, and is often blowing routine plays and hurting the team more than the QB position does.

Lawboy wrote:
Based upon current stats and making plays, I'd say this group equal to the 2003 team, except 2003 had a more steady TE. They might be more physically talented than 2003, but they are not getting it done, and it is on them as a group. That 2003 team had an NFL QB on roster who played that year, 2 NFL fullbacks, an NFL TE that all contributed that year.



By the way, for your claim about passes being poorly thrown and dropped, not on time, of those 13 in the USU, go back and let me know which 13 were on Heaps in that way and back up your assertion. And them tell me of the 13 that were dropped, how many the coaches expected the receiver to pull in, because I think it would be 13. The fact is, the receiver group is not helping hte team by making lays, and is often blowing routine plays and hurting the team more than the QB position does.

I am not pointing to specific plays. I am just trying to make a statement that it is not just one position group that is causing offensive break downs in the passing game. You guys think that I am trying to say that Heaps is the main problem here. I am not saying that at all, I am saying that the offense is strugging because we have a Freshman QB that is slowly improving. Yes, the recievers should be working harder to make plays that would have been easier if we had a veteran QB but the bottom line is it isn't the recievers making all of the bad plays, it is a combination of bad coaching bad throwing, bad catching, bad blocking. It isn't happening all on the same play. Different plays break down for different reasons, but the accumulative effect is that we are now 2-4 instead of 5-1. AND having said that, if Bronco had been in charge of the defense all year instead of just the last game, we probably wouldn't be 2-4 now regardless of the offense.

Why no mention of Matt Marshall? He has the best passing efficiency rating and completion percentage of anyone!



I'm trying to be nicer on the board and in life. So I will not comment on the quality of the initial post in this thread, nor will I nominate it as the dumbest and most uninformed post possibly ever on cougarcorner. I won't even say that it's at least top 5 in that category.

frdbtr wrote:

frdbtr you can always be counted on to bag on Heaps... no matter what. No matter the topic.

airattack, if you have been lurking this board, you know that I don't "bag" on heaps. I have stated in multiple threads that I think he is talented and the future of the program. I am merely making observations based on what I am seeing in games. When I say that he is making improper reads of the defense and that he throws too early or too late at times, it is an observation, I am not trying to say that he needs to be benched or that he isn't capable of getting it done. I am merely stating my opinion on why I think that the offense is not performing the way that it is capable. I think that our offensive struggles are a result of poor coaching + poor execution by everyone on the offense including Heaps(at certain times).



My comments on Heaps being "the chosen one" are my frustration by certain posters who come onto the board and flame me for my opinions that don't only include Heaps but the rest of the offense (like stated above). It is amazing to me how Heaps has gotten a pass from the same types of fans that thought that QB's like John Walsh and Kevin Feterick were the worst QB'sthat ever took a snap from center when both of those guys had a higher PER rating then Heaps has. Matt Berry had a higher PER then heaps has. All this gets blamed on his recievers though who for some reason can't catch passes (when they had no trouble catching balls from Max Hall last year). Like I stated above, i think that Heaps is still learning and is going to be a very good QB but I get sick of hearing about how bad our recievers are, how bad our Oline is, and how bad coaching is when the guy that is throwing the ball is above reproach. It just doesn't make sense to me. So go ahead Missouri coug, flame away.

Yes, you are correct. KF was the worst. If it wasn't for the millions of dollars his dad pumped into the program I don't think he would have started.

Wow, those were hard years to watch; consistant poor play by our QB. :gross:

frdbtr wrote:
I am not pointing to specific plays. I am just trying to make a statement that it is not just one position group that is causing offensive break downs in the passing game. You guys think that I am trying to say that Heaps is the main problem here. I am not saying that at all, I am saying that the offense is strugging because we have a Freshman QB that is slowly improving. Yes, the recievers should be working harder to make plays that would have been easier if we had a veteran QB but the bottom line is it isn't the recievers making all of the bad plays, it is a combination of bad coaching bad throwing, bad catching, bad blocking. It isn't happening all on the same play. Different plays break down for different reasons, but the accumulative effect is that we are now 2-4 instead of 5-1. AND having said that, if Bronco had been in charge of the defense all year instead of just the last game, we probably wouldn't be 2-4 now regardless of the offense.

wow I think you are stretching it here a little saying it isn't about a specific play when in reality it is about specific plays, all the plays where the receivers have dropped the balls. I have gone on record before the season started that Heaps should have been redshirted, but I am not placing blame on him for dropped passes. I agree with you that timing is a huge part of the game and that both the QB and the WR needs to have that timing down for plays to happen, and this should get better. I will argue though that at this point in the year that timing shouldn't be an issue. Heaps has taken most of the snaps in practice and in the games since the 2nd qtr of the FSU game so everyone should be familiar with each other.... not a valid excuse here.



I went back to the thread that had the video of the dropped passes in the USU game because that is the only one I have access to right now and looked at how well the receiver was covered, how much the receiver had to reach for the ball and how the timing was, and if Heaps was under pressure. I didn't count balls that the receivers didn't even get a finger on, like the one thrown over the head of Mendenhall in the endzone, but where the receivers actually got TWO hands on the ball. Out of the 12 dropped balls, one was a bad pass to Hoffman in the left slot, Heaps fault, one to Jacobson who was covered really well, but Heaps put the ball where only Jacobson could catch it and he didn't, I give this one dropped to good coverage and one over the middle to Mathews who was covered pretty good but got 2 hands on the ball.



Other than these 3 passes all the other passes were on time, in the right spot, receivers open, and Heaps not under pressure so conclusion is it has been mostly the receivers fault.