Archived Topic

Honor Code

by BigCougsFan · 4/17/2010

urroner

4/20/2010, 2:01:16 AM

snoscythe wrote:
Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.

Who's that knocking at my door,

It's just a little sin.

I opened the door just a little bit

And all Hell came marching in.

Schmoe

4/20/2010, 2:28:11 AM

I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

Italics

4/20/2010, 2:45:07 AM

rblack wrote:
I wish Unga well, whether he finds a way to play his last year at BYU or whether he seeks to move on to the NFL.

That said, I wish everyone would quit speculating on what happened. We don't know. I don't care.

That's good you feel that way, but you need to realize that politely asking people to not speculate isn't going to make a difference. Until the HC changes itself, we will continue - as we have - to see this happen.

Cougy_Monster

4/20/2010, 3:01:38 AM

Schmoe wrote:
I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

In the end we will not be judged by how little we sinned but by how sincerely we repented. Denying the role of responsibly dealing with consequences of our mistakes is short-sighted. We all would be better off if we could avoid mistakes in the first place, but since that's not possible we're then better off not making the 2nd mistake of blaming others (or the system) for our pain instead of admitting you are responsible for your actions.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

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snoscythe

4/20/2010, 3:25:28 AM

You could just substitute a few words in a lot of these anti-HC posts and come up with some pretty good pro-amnesty for illegal immigrants arguments.

"Why do we need to ruin their lives because of some silly, antiquated law? Don't we understand that their families' collective well-being is at stake? How un-Christian."

Funny how morals are so very situational. Rules/laws/agreements are only good to the extent they fit within our values system. Some people just value BYU football more than personal responsibility in society, just like some people value illegal activity for profit over national security.

Schmoe

4/20/2010, 4:49:27 AM

Cougy_Monster wrote:
I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

In the end we will not be judged by how little we sinned but by how sincerely we repented. Denying the role of responsibly dealing with consequences of our mistakes is short-sighted. We all would be better off if we could avoid mistakes in the first place, but since that's not possible we're then better off not making the 2nd mistake of blaming others (or the system) for our pain instead of admitting you are responsible for your actions.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Bingo-Boingo! Hit the nail on the head.

Mars

4/20/2010, 6:47:21 AM

I'm still waiting for Italics to post anything that makes even a shred of sense. BYU would be better off abolishing the honor code? It's evil to enforce a signed moral contract? Wow, good luck enjoying heaven someday buddy...

And yes, Corianton served a mission and eventually led his people to colonize a new land overseas after his repentance. Great scriptural story.

rblack

4/20/2010, 12:30:23 PM

Italics wrote:
I wish Unga well, whether he finds a way to play his last year at BYU or whether he seeks to move on to the NFL.

That said, I wish everyone would quit speculating on what happened. We don't know. I don't care.

That's good you feel that way, but you need to realize that politely asking people to not speculate isn't going to make a difference. Until the HC changes itself, we will continue - as we have - to see this happen.

What exactly would you take out of the honor code? Would you allow students to drink? Drink as long as it is only occasionally? Sleep with each other? Sleep with each other as long as it is a committed relationship? Sleep with each other as long as they promise to get married some day?

The fact of the matter is, the honor code is one of the things that separate us from the lesser schools. It is not easy. It is not the societal norm. However, BYU has taken a stand and has proven over the years that they can be equal to their peers while expecting a higher standard. If we do away with the honor code, we might as well cheer for Utah. If we make it an internal or personal standard and we eliminate enforcement, history has shown that the standard will become nonexistent. I do not want BYU to become just another school. I can endure losing seasons. I can handle missing out on otherwise talented recruits. I can deal with the occasional scandal. However, one of the reasons I cheer for BYU is because I know that they are different. They are not thugs. In short they are not :utard: .

Ddawg

4/20/2010, 2:44:45 PM

Cougy_Monster wrote:
I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

In the end we will not be judged by how little we sinned but by how sincerely we repented. Denying the role of responsibly dealing with consequences of our mistakes is short-sighted. We all would be better off if we could avoid mistakes in the first place, but since that's not possible we're then better off not making the 2nd mistake of blaming others (or the system) for our pain instead of admitting you are responsible for your actions.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

How is it possible for a "Cougy_Monster" to be so damn insightful!

(TIC ;) ).

Good post. Good sentiments & thoughts. With your permission - I'm filing that away in my memory vault for future use - so I can look & sound insightful & deep - which I am not. Ha-ha!!!!

8)

imuakahuku

4/20/2010, 5:45:05 PM

FWIW- The Lord's U is next to campus, accross from the temple.

Wickchad

4/20/2010, 6:47:25 PM

rblack wrote:

What exactly would you take out of the honor code?

Easy, the honor code does not apply to the football team.

rblack

4/20/2010, 7:13:19 PM

Wickchad84087 wrote:

What exactly would you take out of the honor code?

Easy, the honor code does not apply to the football team.

Then the football team wouldn't be worth cheering for.

Wickchad

4/20/2010, 7:37:36 PM

rblack wrote:
rblack wrote:

What exactly would you take out of the honor code?

Easy, the honor code does not apply to the football team.

Then the football team wouldn't be worth cheering for.

Is 0-12 but gives good firesides worth cheering for?

rblack

4/20/2010, 8:20:45 PM

Wickchad84087 wrote:
Wickchad84087 wrote:

What exactly would you take out of the honor code?

Easy, the honor code does not apply to the football team.

Then the football team wouldn't be worth cheering for.

Is 0-12 but gives good firesides worth cheering for?

Yes

I don't follow pro football because of the greed and the Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger, etc. stories. I don't follow Pro Basketball because of the greed and the Kobe Bryant, etc. stories. Baseball is not my sport.

College football and basketball are becoming more and more filled with scandals which are brushed under the rug, recruiting violations, etc.

I'm too busy to pay any attention to any team except BYU. The reason I pay attention to BYU is because, they are the only team out there which has chosen to take the high road. Not only have they chosen to take the high road, they have proven, time and time again that they can compete, while taking the high road. So, would I cheer for them if they were 0-12, yes. However, I expect that they will continue to compete and compete well, while taking the high road. I cheer for BYU because it produces individuals like Unga who, despite having flaws, chooses to own up to them and accepts consequenses for them when it would be easier to hide it all under the rug and go on with the season. It's called integrity and it's what makes it worth being a BYU fan.

GolfDiveNCougs

4/20/2010, 8:39:32 PM

imuakahuku wrote:
FWIW- The Lord's U is next to campus, accross from the temple.

Wait...Rock Canyon Park???

Cougy_Monster

4/20/2010, 8:51:43 PM

GolfDiveNCougs wrote:
FWIW- The Lord's U is next to campus, accross from the temple.

Wait...Rock Canyon Park???

It's not Rock Canyon Park. Don't be silly. It's Wymount apartments.

BoiseBYU

4/20/2010, 10:00:13 PM

We could go the route of the Iranian clerics like Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi who claims that promiscuous women "increases earthquakes." :bug:

Seriously, I am glad for the honor code. If more schools had one, we would all be better off as a result....

I wish Bro. Unga the very best in whatever he decides to do. I have respected his play and the way he has carried himself on the field. I do not know what happened or why he withdrew from school and am glad to leave that to Bro. Unga, his Bishop, and the Lord. In the end, Bro. Unga is one of us and I extend my support to him and his family as he addresses his future.

Cougy_Monster

4/20/2010, 11:20:11 PM

Ddawg wrote:
Schmoe wrote:
I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

In the end we will not be judged by how little we sinned but by how sincerely we repented. Denying the role of responsibly dealing with consequences of our mistakes is short-sighted. We all would be better off if we could avoid mistakes in the first place, but since that's not possible we're then better off not making the 2nd mistake of blaming others (or the system) for our pain instead of admitting you are responsible for your actions.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

How is it possible for a "Cougy_Monster" to be so damn insightful!

(TIC ;) ).

Good post. Good sentiments & thoughts. With your permission - I'm filing that away in my memory vault for future use - so I can look & sound insightful & deep - which I am not. Ha-ha!!!!

8)

If only I hadn't learned those lessons the hard way.

Italics

4/21/2010, 5:57:08 AM

Schmoe wrote:
I know that labeling BYU as the Lord's University is silly and that the Brethren don't have a lot of input as far as academics are concerned. I do, however, find it hard to believe that they would not be involved in the honor code rules and how they are enforced.

If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them? Do those consequences help us? No, the rules help us avoid the unwanted consequences. So asking if these consequences will "help" Harvey is downright stupid, following the honor code would have helped him.

These are both extremely simple minded arguments.

"If there weren't consequences for doing bad things, would we keep doing them?"

Believe it or not, there are still punishments for sin WITHOUT the honor code. Currently, the "consequences" for breaking the "code" often times lead to students facing unnecessary ridicule, embarrassment, and humiliation. Often times, these kids are outcast and put into situations where they will have less support and be in an easier situation to sin. Their education is a whole other topic. But hey, that's "they way it is," and it's "what's in the contract," so I guess that excuses it, right? Why question it when we can just mindlessly conform?

You're only fooling yourself if you seriously think the HC is preventing some gigantic multitude of sin on BYU's campus. Kids who want to drink will drink. Kids who want to have sex will have sex. Heck, a good number of things in the honor code are not even scriptural or based off of actual commandments, so most of the "code" isn't even preventing sin in the first place.

But hey, not being given a chance to exercise self-discipline and agency for good is overrated. It's soooo much more efficient to be watched over and told what to do your entire life. It's a much better plan than testing people to see if they fear God more than man. Just ask Satan, he'll tell you all about how great a plan it is.

Italics

4/21/2010, 6:01:12 AM

snoscythe wrote:
You could just substitute a few words in a lot of these anti-HC posts and come up with some pretty good pro-amnesty for illegal immigrants arguments.

"Why do we need to ruin their lives because of some silly, antiquated law? Don't we understand that their families' collective well-being is at stake? How un-Christian."

Funny how morals are so very situational. Rules/laws/agreements are only good to the extent they fit within our values system. Some people just value BYU football more than personal responsibility in society, just like some people value illegal activity for profit over national security.

That's a stretch at best. Not even worth responding to.

Way to exercise the self-righteous ideology of "anyone who questions what I believe in must be a sinner/must value football over morality/etc" as well. I appreciate the fact that you most likely agree with me on 90% of moral and political issues, but for our sake, I hope you never debate them with people who know what they're talking about. Weak, unfounded, uninformed, invalid, straw-man arguments make any side look confused.

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