Honor Code

I'm not a BYU graduate, so I don't know the process of the Honor Code.



I know everyone who enrolls signs the Honor Code and agrees to live by it, but I'm confused to some things.



Assuming Harvey and his girlfriend did things they should not have done, which I don't want to condem them on, cause I'm 100% positive it's the same thing I did before I got married with my wife(girlfriend at the time).



Why would they have to withdraw from school or get kicked off the team??? I understand Teo getting the boot cause he got a DUI. He broke the law. I can understand him getting kicked off, but on the more intimate matters that are to be resolved between that said person and their bishop. Not the football coach or the schools AD, president, teacher, etc...



The Church preaches repentance and forgiveness. Is this BYU's way of their "repentance" process for violating the Honor Code??? I'm just lost cause this should be between him/her and their bishop.



Everyone sins... Everyone makes mistakes. If 100% of the student body admitted to their wrong doings against the Honor Code... I can't see half of them graduating because of them violating the Honor Code.

You are not the first to raise this. While I was in a position of leadership in a BYU Ward, one of the members of the High Council lamented the fact that when someone had transgressed, who was the only member in his family, and was not supported by his family in being a member, was expelled, he had lost the only real support group that he had.



It was my understanding that his concern was run up the chain of command at least as far as the Board of Trustees. While acknowledging the concern, the decision was not altered.

The way our world is heading... BYU needs to pass out chastity belts to everyone who signs the Honor Code during their admittance process.



Bengal,

That's rough for anyone who has to endure that process alone like that.

I can't even comprehend the thoughtlessness it must take for someone to believe that it's best to kick a struggling member and/or member who has a non-member family off campus during the one time in their life when they are probably in need of it the most.

Sometimes I have to wonder if - in this way - the honor code has lost us more youth than it has saved.

The true shame isn't so much in the honor code itself, but in the way which it is carried out and enforced.

I've had experience with a roommate at BYU who had the pre-marital relations problem and had to deal with the Honor Code office as a result. He was put on probation for a while as he tried to work things out with the bishop, but the HC Office doesn't kick you out for chastity issues--they kick you out for losing your ecclesiastical endorsement. It's your bishop who makes the call to the HC office telling them he is withdrawing his endorsement.



He was later given the boot, but only because he continued to make those choices.



I think many people have the wrong idea about the HC Office because you first hear about the reasons for the expulsion/withdrawal when you hear about the expulsion/withdrawal. That doesn't mean this is the first offense, and it generally isn't. The only person I know of who was booted for a first time offense was someone who was caught cheating in the Testing Center....but that will get you booted from any academic institution, Honor Code or not.



Anyways, isn't this all kind of irrelevant in Harvey's situation? He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

snoscythe wrote:
Anyways, isn't this all kind of irrelevant in Harvey's situation? He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own...

Yeah... I kinda said that,

Why would they have to withdraw from school or get kicked off the team???

So if the Bishop reports it to BYU and the Honor Code office. How in the world does a non-member get reported on, since they don't have to confess to a Bishop. Or do they???

snoscythe wrote:
the HC Office doesn't kick you out for chastity issues--they kick you out for losing your ecclesiastical endorsement. It's your bishop who makes the call to the HC office telling them he is withdrawing his endorsement.

I agree that most people don't realize this and it is an important point.

Why would they have to withdraw from school or get kicked off the team???

So if the Bishop reports it to BYU and the Honor Code office. How in the world does a non-member get reported on, since they don't have to confess to a Bishop. Or do they???

All students need an ecclesiastical endorsement from some type of clergyperson, and that endorsement needs to be renewed annually just like an LDS student from their bishop. While there may not be the week to week oversight that you get at a BYU ward, there is at a minimum annual review.

Italics wrote:
I can't even comprehend the thoughtlessness it must take for someone to believe that it's best to kick a struggling member and/or member who has a non-member family off campus during the one time in their life when they are probably in need of it the most.

Sometimes I have to wonder if - in this way - the honor code has lost us more youth than it has saved.

The true shame isn't so much in the honor code itself, but in the way which it is carried out and enforced.

Yeah, how can you kick someone out of the temple when they need it most, when they're struggling, right? Going to BYU is a privilege that one must be worthy of, and they know it, they still have thousands of other options of going to school where they can still attend church and institute while "struggling." Don't be a :utard:

snoscythe wrote:



He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility?? Food for thought. I like your thoughts.



I certainly wish Harvey & the young lady the best. I hope there is both a Church & family safety net to support them during this tough & embarrassing time.

I hope they do not become bitter. That will probably depend on how friends, team, family & teammates extend the hand of friendship & love them.



Hey Harvey ..... we love ya Brutha!!! Sincere heartfelt support for you!!!!

Ddawg wrote:

He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility??

It is a possibility--by withdrawing before the ecclesiastical endorsement was revoked, they just have to re-enroll with an endorsement in the Fall--they just have to clear the Dean of Students. The Honor Code Office would have nothing to do with it other than filing the ecclesiastical endorsement. If your endorsement gets revoked, its a more strenuous battle to come back and you have to deal with the HC office at that point. Easier to ask permission than forgiveness, I guess.



However, it looks unlikely that Harvey will be coming back after all--Jay Drew is reporting Harvey will enter June's supplemental draft.

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:



He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility??

It is a possibility--by withdrawing before the ecclesiastical endorsement was revoked, they just have to re-enroll with an endorsement in the Fall--they just have to clear the Dean of Students. The Honor Code Office would have nothing to do with it other than filing the ecclesiastical endorsement. If your endorsement gets revoked, its a more strenuous battle to come back and you have to deal with the HC office at that point. Easier to ask permission than forgiveness, I guess.



However, it looks unlikely that Harvey will be coming back after all--Jay Drew is reporting Harvey will enter June's supplemental draft.

Yeah from what I have heard through the pipeline Harvey will be entering the supplemental draft and will not be returning to BYU in the fall. Although I see no reason why he couldn't return in the fall since he withdrew instead of getting kicked out.

Schmoe wrote:

I can't even comprehend the thoughtlessness it must take for someone to believe that it's best to kick a struggling member and/or member who has a non-member family off campus during the one time in their life when they are probably in need of it the most.

Sometimes I have to wonder if - in this way - the honor code has lost us more youth than it has saved.

The true shame isn't so much in the honor code itself, but in the way which it is carried out and enforced.

Yeah, how can you kick someone out of the temple when they need it most, when they're struggling, right? Going to BYU is a privilege that one must be worthy of, and they know it, they still have thousands of other options of going to school where they can still attend church and institute while "struggling." Don't be a :utard:

Huge differences and huge holes in your comparison of BYU to the temple.

You know what these are, and I don't think I need to waste my time pointing out the weaknesses in such an analogy.



The fact of the matter is that often times students are booted for one time offenses - and no matter how hard you try to rosey it up, saying things like "Well they agreed to live it and didn't" does not require a very high IQ or amount of thought.

I've even heard some bishops, while telling stories in talks, talk about students that they really liked and felt bad for, who they "had no choice" but to pull their endorsement for because they "had no choice," even though they felt bad for doing it because they knew that that person needed help, and would be returning to a situation where they would probably continually sin and become completely inactive. If you don't see the tragedy in such a situation, I don't think there's much more I can say to convince you.



And no, I have never been kicked out of a church institution, let alone even so much as ever spoken to someone who works on the honor code committee, I just recognize absurdity when I see it. I guess it's hard for me to imagine any situation when the best thing for a struggling youth (whether it's continual struggling, or a one-time thing where they slipped up) is to have their education pulled, be humiliated, and most likely be put somewhere where it will be easier to sin. But maybe some of you can explain to me why that's a good thing.

Ddawg wrote:

He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility?? Food for thought. I like your thoughts.

Some recent quotes from Bronco make it sound as if it's a possibility Harvey could be back, but at this point, I doubt it.



If Harvey felt like he could - or wanted to - repent and be eligible to play come September, he would have. Obviously the kid wants to play, or he wouldn't have even stuck around for his senior year.



The fact that he withdrew says to me that it was a preemptive move. If he suspects he'll be ready/worthy/whatever by September, why withdraw?

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:



He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility??

It is a possibility--by withdrawing before the ecclesiastical endorsement was revoked, they just have to re-enroll with an endorsement in the Fall--they just have to clear the Dean of Students. The Honor Code Office would have nothing to do with it other than filing the ecclesiastical endorsement. If your endorsement gets revoked, its a more strenuous battle to come back and you have to deal with the HC office at that point. Easier to ask permission than forgiveness, I guess.

Either way it basically comes down to the endorsement - or lack thereof.

My wife works on the honor code committee and is one of the people who reviews the cases and makes a decision if they should be re-admitted. I'm yet to hear of a case where the person has cleared things up with the church and is still rejected.

Regardless, what you said above - basically pointing out the "loopholes" in the system - stands as another testament to just how flawed the HC system is to begin with.

Italics wrote:

snoscythe wrote:



He wasn't kicked out--he withdrew on his own, and as long as he has an ecclesiastical endorsement by September, he can be back on the field for Washington.

Very interesting comment "Sno." I wonder if that is a real possibility?? Food for thought. I like your thoughts.

Some recent quotes from Bronco make it sound as if it's a possibility Harvey could be back, but at this point, I doubt it.



If Harvey felt like he could - or wanted to - repent and be eligible to play come September, he would have. Obviously the kid wants to play, or he wouldn't have even stuck around for his senior year.



The fact that he withdrew says to me that it was a preemptive move. If he suspects he'll be ready/worthy/whatever by September, why withdraw?

To save face for him, her, and the school?



And no, he's not coming back. He's trying to get into June's supplemental draft.



http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=14452&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/byus-harvey-unga-a-supplemental-draft-hopeful/

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/elsewhere/2010/apr/16/byu-leading-rusher-unga-withdraws-school-following/

http://www.mwcconnection.com/2010/4/16/1427389/harvey-unga-expected-to-enter-the

http://www.fantasysp.com/news/nfl/306080/byu_s_harvey_unga_a_supplemental_draft_hopeful

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/380108-breaking-news-harvey-unga-leaving-byu-after-honor-code-violation

http://www.collegefantasyfootballinsider.com/news/16155/BYUs-Harvey-Unga-leaves-school

Italics wrote:
My wife works on the honor code committee and is one of the people who reviews the cases and makes a decision if they should be re-admitted.

But at a completely different school. You might want to clarify for everyone that you are referring to a school in a completely different state when you tell them that your wife "works on the honor code committee."

snoscythe wrote:



To save face for him, her, and the school?



And no, he's not coming back. He's trying to get into June's supplemental draft.



http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=14452&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/byus-harvey-unga-a-supplemental-draft-hopeful/

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/elsewhere/2010/apr/16/byu-leading-rusher-unga-withdraws-school-following/

http://www.mwcconnection.com/2010/4/16/1427389/harvey-unga-expected-to-enter-the

http://www.fantasysp.com/news/nfl/306080/byu_s_harvey_unga_a_supplemental_draft_hopeful

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/380108-breaking-news-harvey-unga-leaving-byu-after-honor-code-violation

http://www.collegefantasyfootballinsider.com/news/16155/BYUs-Harvey-Unga-leaves-school

And as I said, I highly doubt this was his top choice. If he felt he had the possibility to play, he would have stuck around. Are you forgetting that this has been his choice thus far for the entire off-season? It's not like the kid prefers the supplemental draft over the main draft itself. This was a "last resort" choice, and it's horribly obvious that withdrawing from BYU was not an attempt to jump through the loopholes of the system. It's not like Harvey suddenly decided that he'd rather get the sloppy-seconds version of the draft than play another year at BYU. Here's to hoping his NFL teammates will be greater support to him than the players on BYU...

snoscythe wrote:

My wife works on the honor code committee and is one of the people who reviews the cases and makes a decision if they should be re-admitted.

But at a completely different school. You might want to clarify for everyone that you are referring to a school in a completely different state when you tell them that your wife "works on the honor code committee."

The HC works the same way. If you really want to try and argue differences - the main one would be that BYU-Provo is less strict. Which leads me to ask - what's your point? Unless you're just trying to strengthen my argument, which you've done a splendid job at so far by pointing out the ways in which one can dance around the Honor Code.

Italics wrote:

Italics wrote:
My wife works on the honor code committee and is one of the people who reviews the cases and makes a decision if they should be re-admitted.

But at a completely different school. You might want to clarify for everyone that you are referring to a school in a completely different state when you tell them that your wife "works on the honor code committee."

The HC works the same way. If you really want to try and argue differences - the main one would be that BYU-Provo is less strict. Which leads me to ask - what's your point? Unless you're just trying to strengthen my argument, which you've done a splendid job at so far by pointing out the ways in which one can dance around the Honor Code.

Just pointing out that you are willing to mislead to buttress your arguments.