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The Whittingham Myth

by Mars · 1/5/2015

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M
Mars
Year, BYU / Utah



Recruiting, Scout 53, Rivals 63 / Scout 71, Rivals 59.

2005, 6-6, Sagarin 55, SOS 65, Las Vegas Bowl loss to Cal / 7-5, Sagarin 51, SOS 76, Emerald Bowl win over Georgia Tech.

Recruiting, Scout 46, Rivals 67 / Scout 60, Rivals 55.

2006, 11-2, Sagarin 13, SOS 74, Las Vegas Bowl win over Oregon / 8-5, Sagarin 46, SOS 73, Armed Forces Bowl win over Tulsa.

Recruiting, Scout 42, Rivals 56 / Scout 66, Rivals 72.

2007, 11-2, Sagarin 17, SOS 59, Las Vegas Bowl win over UCLA / 9-4, Sagarin 34, SOS 60, Poinsettia Bowl win over Navy.

Recruiting, Scout 58, Rivals 83 / Scout 67, Rivals 60.

2008, 10-3, Sagarin 32, SOS 74, Las Vegas Bowl loss to Arizona / 13-0, Sagarin 5, SOS 56, Sugar Bowl win over Alabama.

Recruiting, Scout 40, Rivals 50 / Scout 55, Rivals 44.

2009, 11-2, Sagarin 15, SOS 61, Las Vegas Bowl win over Oregon State / 10-3, Sagarin 24, SOS 75, Poinsettia Bowl win over Cal.

Recruiting, Scout 22, Rivals 40 / Scout 34, Rivals 32.

2010, 7-6, Sagarin 45, SOS 55, New Mexico Bowl win over UTEP / 10-3, Sagarin 26, SOS 50, Las Vegas Bowl loss to Boise State.

Recruiting, Scout 66, Rivals 63 / Scout 39, Rivals 37.

2011, 10-3, Sagarin 34, SOS 90, Armed Forces Bowl win over Tulsa / 8-5, Sagarin 39, SOS 49, Sun Bowl win over Georgia Tech.

Recruiting, Scout 60, Rivals 62 / Scout 33, Rivals 28.

2012, 8-5, Sagarin 26, SOS 63, Poinsettia Bowl win over SDSU / 5-7, Sagarin 61, SOS 41, Not bowl eligible.

Recruiting, Scout 63, Rivals 71 / Scout 53, Rivals 44.

2013, 8-5, Sagarin 35, SOS 38, Fight Hunger Bowl loss to Washington / 5-7, Sagarin 34, SOS 3, Not bowl eligible.

Recruiting, Scout 62, Rivals 71 / Scout 69, Rivals 67.

2014, 8-5, Sagarin 56, SOS 69, Miami Beach Bowl loss to Memphis / 9-4, Sagarin 23, SOS 29, Las Vegas Bowl win over CSU.

Recruiting, Scout 47, Rivals 64 / Scout 51, Rivals 49.



10 Year average, 9.0-3.9, Sagarin 32.8, SOS 64.8, 6-4 in bowl games / 8.4-4.3, Sagarin 34.3, SOS 51.2, 7-1 in bowl games.

11 recruiting classes, Scout 50.8, Rivals 62.7 / Scout 54.4, Rivals 49.7.

5 year average, 8.2-4.8, Sagarin 39.2, SOS 63.0, 3-2 in bowl games / 7.4-5.2, Sagarin 36.6, SOS 34.4, 2-1 in bowl games.

5 recruiting classes, Scout 59.6, Rivals 66.2 / Scout 49.0, Rivals 45.0.

3 year average, 8.0-5.0, Sagarin 39.0, SOS 56.7, 1-2 in bowl games / 6.3-6.0, Sagarin 39.3, SOS 24.3, 1-0 in bowl games.

3 recruiting classes, Scout 57.3, Rivals 68.7 / Scout 57.7, Rivals 53.3.
G
Guest
I can't understand why any one would want him.
C
Cougs_Rule
hawkwing wrote:
I can't understand why any one would want him.


Because amidst all the bad news, he didn't fail one of the biggest unwritten ( or maybe written) imperatives at the U-- DONT LOSE TO YOUR HATED RIVAL. Amidst all this data, he got forbearance bc he beat and even humiliated, including urinating on, BYU.

I would almost be willing to bet serious money that Whitt now wishes he could have played BYU this year.
C
Cougs_Rule
Seriously. What is the difference between these numbers and Broncos?????????



Seriously!



Let me help you.



A BCS WIN AND DOMINATING YOUR RIVAL. its a pretty simple analysis.
M
Mars
Cougs_Rule wrote:
Seriously. What is the difference between these numbers and Broncos????????? Seriously! Let me help you. A BCS WIN AND DOMINATING YOUR RIVAL. its a pretty simple analysis.

They are pretty alike. The main difference is that Whittingham has both higher highs and lower lows.



Losing (non-bowl) Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 2.

10+ Win Seasons- Bronco 5, KWhitt 3.

11+ Win Seasons- Bronco 3, KWhitt 1.

12+ Win Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

13 Win Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Undefeated Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

BCS Bowls- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

BCS Bowl Wins- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Top 25 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 4, KWhitt 3.

Top 15 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 2, KWhitt 1.

Top 5 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Holy War Wins- Bronco 3, KWhitt 6.
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T
TulaneVandyRiceCoug
Isn't there a stat where several of the wins over byu were bookended by two losses? I think that happened several times.



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M
Mars
TulaneVandyRiceCoug wrote:
Isn't there a stat where several of the wins over byu were bookended by two losses? I think that happened several times.

2005: BYU-W/W/L to Utah/L. Utah-W/L/W over BYU/W.

2006: BYU-W/W/W over Utah/W. Utah-W/W/L to BYU/W.

2007: BYU-W/W/W over Utah/W/W. Utah-W/W/L to BYU/W.

2008: BYU-W/W/L to Utah/L. Utah-W/W/W over BYU/W.

2009: BYU-W/W/W over Utah/W. Utah-L/W/L to BYU/W.

2010: BYU-W/W/L to Utah/W. Utah-L/W/W over BYU/L.

2011: BYU-W/L/L to Utah/W/W. Utah-W/L/W over BYU/L/L.

2012: BYU-W/W/L to Utah/L/W. Utah-W/L/W over BYU/L/L.

2013: BYU-L/W/L to Utah/W/W. Utah-W/L/W over BYU/L/W.

2014: Utah backed out of the rivalry game.

2015: Utah backed out of the rivalry game.



Utah lost the game before and after beating BYU 0 times in the MWC, and every season they have played since they both left (3 times).



BYU is 3-3 in the game after losing to Utah (5-1 in the game before). BYU is 3-0 in the game after beating Utah (3-0 in the game before).

Utah is 2-4 in the game after beating BYU (2-4 in the game before). Utah is 3-0 in the game after losing to BYU (3-0 in the game before).
C
Cougs_Rule
BTW, Mars, impressive stats. Thanks
M
Mars
Cougs_Rule wrote:
BTW, Mars, impressive stats. Thanks

Thank you. I had taken a little break from this stuff- people tend to kill the messenger. But dinking around places likes the CFB Stats Warehouse can be fun.
G
Guest
What is amazing to me is that Whittingham's only sole achievement over Bronco is that he wins the rivalry game more consistently. In every other category he's either on par, or below Bronco. Yet so many fans have come to see him as a hot commodity that would take BYU to the promised land.
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M
Mars
hawkwing wrote:
What is amazing to me is that Whittingham's only sole achievement over Bronco is that he wins the rivalry game more consistently. In every other category he's either on par, or below Bronco. Yet so many fans have come to see him as a hot commodity that would take BYU to the promised land.

Well, that and 2008.



I think BYU fans are, currently:

1- Tired of Bronco.

2- Happy about the idea of "beating" the Utes in anything football-related. Even if it means taking their above-average head coach to replace our own good but flawed head coach.
G
Guest
Mars wrote:
What is amazing to me is that Whittingham's only sole achievement over Bronco is that he wins the rivalry game more consistently. In every other category he's either on par, or below Bronco. Yet so many fans have come to see him as a hot commodity that would take BYU to the promised land.

Well, that and 2008.



I think BYU fans are, currently:

1- Tired of Bronco.

2- Happy about the idea of "beating" the Utes in anything football-related. Even if it means taking their above-average head coach to replace our own good but flawed head coach.


I attribute 2008 to Urban's Sugar Bowl success recruits (admittedly maybe slightly unfairly). I don't give a whole ton of credit to Whitt for that.
G
Gunk
Perception is reality. Like it or not, Whit has successfully created the perception that Utah is better than BYU even though the numbers clearly show otherwise. How did Whit do this? By simply beating BYU on the field (handedly, I might add).



People are products of perception, so to the masses Utah is better than BYU (being invited to the Pac adds to the perception). Credit Whit for knowing a bit more about how people think and capitalizing on it.



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G
Guest
Gunk wrote:
Perception is reality. Like it or not, Whit has successfully created the perception that Utah is better than BYU even though the numbers clearly show otherwise. How did Whit do this? By simply beating BYU on the field (handedly, I might add).



People are products of perception, so to the masses Utah is better than BYU (being invited to the Pac adds to the perception). Credit Whit for knowing a bit more about how people think and capitalizing on it.



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I think you give Whitt too much credit. I think he just hates BYU and is willing to lose 2 games a year to win the 1 (against BYU).



But that's just my perception.



Even if you're right, his trick wouldn't work as well at BYU as it would at Utah, because BYU fans are more engaged and would not be willing to put up with 4 or 5 losses a year for long even with beating their rival.
B
Brayden Green
hawkwing wrote:
hawkwing wrote:
What is amazing to me is that Whittingham's only sole achievement over Bronco is that he wins the rivalry game more consistently. In every other category he's either on par, or below Bronco. Yet so many fans have come to see him as a hot commodity that would take BYU to the promised land.

Well, that and 2008.



I think BYU fans are, currently:

1- Tired of Bronco.

2- Happy about the idea of "beating" the Utes in anything football-related. Even if it means taking their above-average head coach to replace our own good but flawed head coach.


I attribute 2008 to Urban's Sugar Bowl success recruits (admittedly maybe slightly unfairly). I don't give a whole ton of credit to Whitt for that.


Then shouldn't Bronco's "good" years go to Crowton's offensive recruits (Pitta, Collie, Unga, Hall, Tonga, Fui, 7 NFL lineman) ? You can't have it both ways to downplay Whitt's success but elevate Bronco's in the same time frame, with the same constraints. You are committing logical fallacy.



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G
Guest
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Mars wrote:
What is amazing to me is that Whittingham's only sole achievement over Bronco is that he wins the rivalry game more consistently. In every other category he's either on par, or below Bronco. Yet so many fans have come to see him as a hot commodity that would take BYU to the promised land.

Well, that and 2008.



I think BYU fans are, currently:

1- Tired of Bronco.

2- Happy about the idea of "beating" the Utes in anything football-related. Even if it means taking their above-average head coach to replace our own good but flawed head coach.


I attribute 2008 to Urban's Sugar Bowl success recruits (admittedly maybe slightly unfairly). I don't give a whole ton of credit to Whitt for that.


Then shouldn't Bronco's "good" years go to Crowton's offensive recruits (Pitta, Collie, Unga, Hall, Tonga, Fui, 7 NFL lineman) ? You can't have it both ways to downplay Whitt's success but elevate Bronco's in the same time frame, with the same constraints. You are committing logical fallacy.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


That's the exact argument most of Bronco's detractor's make, that his good years are with Crowton's recruits, so it should also apply to Whittingham. In addition to that, there's a pretty big difference from inheriting a team that just went undefeated and won the Sugar Bowl and a team that is coming off of 3 straight losing seasons and had a number of players kicked off the team.
C
Cougs_Rule
I think it is a mix. He hates BYU (along with his father) as much as Max Hall hates the Utes. But somewhere along the career path, Whitt figured out--YOU DONT LOSE TO YOUR RIVAL.



And by the way, Hawk, the only point I disagree with is your last. if Bronco is still around in 2016 and loses again to the Utes, especially if its a Whit-led Utes, methinks that Fans "engagement" will turn sharply against Bronco. He simply must start treating that game more than just another game. Add to that Bronco's taunting which has been tantamount to calling them chickens on the Hill and he already has poster material for the next game. AND it's at Rice Chex stadium.
G
Guest
Cougs_Rule wrote:
I think it is a mix. He hates BYU (along with his father) as much as Max Hall hates the Utes. But somewhere along the career path, Whitt figured out--YOU DONT LOSE TO YOUR RIVAL.



And by the way, Hawk, the only point I disagree with is your last. if Bronco is still around in 2016 and loses again to the Utes, especially if its a Whit-led Utes, methinks that Fans "engagement" will turn sharply against Bronco. He simply must start treating that game more than just another game. Add to that Bronco's taunting which has been tantamount to calling them chickens on the Hill and he already has poster material for the next game. AND it's at Rice Chex stadium.


I agree with you that Bronco can't lose to the Utes again (assuming he's still around by then). Fans won't tolerate that.
A
AmmonCougar1
Mars wrote:
Seriously. What is the difference between these numbers and Broncos????????? Seriously! Let me help you. A BCS WIN AND DOMINATING YOUR RIVAL. its a pretty simple analysis.

They are pretty alike. The main difference is that Whittingham has both higher highs and lower lows.



Losing (non-bowl) Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 2.

10+ Win Seasons- Bronco 5, KWhitt 3.

11+ Win Seasons- Bronco 3, KWhitt 1.

12+ Win Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

13 Win Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Undefeated Seasons- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

BCS Bowls- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

BCS Bowl Wins- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Top 25 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 4, KWhitt 3.

Top 15 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 2, KWhitt 1.

Top 5 Final AP Poll rankings- Bronco 0, KWhitt 1.

Holy War Wins- Bronco 3, KWhitt 6.


FWIW, technically Kwitt was Co-Head Coach for the Fiesta Bowl in '04. So BCS Bowls and Wins is 2-0 for Kwhitt.



Go Cougs!!!

J. Child

Ammon, ID
C
CrimsonCoug
And so why would this guy who's on par with BYU's current head coach and peed on his alma mater be attractive to AD or BoT? And why would BYU be attractive to him? The whole notion is silly. But not quite as silly as a fan base who relished the predictions of Whittingham being fired at the beginning of the season now pining for him. THAT is silly.



Whit's a good coach, and had some good wins this year, but in his up and down world, I'll be shocked if he can match this year's success next year.
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