KVN

craigoscarson wrote:
John Walsh got paid.... signing a 1st round contract back (the CBA has made 1st round picks less valuable now than then) then is more money than most people make in their lifetimes. He was a bust but one that made a good business decision.

Um, Walsh got drafted in the 7th round, and back then got a non-guaranteed contract and didn't even make it out of camp. His signing bonus was less than $30K.

According to Wikipedia:



Overly optimistic about draft. IMHO poorly advised by money grubbing agents.

Drafted 7th round

Cut shortly after draft



It does not say that he was even signed or paid anything.

Maybe. Maybe not. A pittance at best.



Horrible business decision driven by poor advice.



What is Walsh doing today. IDK. It does not say.



I do know what became of Sheide, Nielsen, Wilson, McMahon, Young, Bosco, Detmer, Sarkisian, Beck, and Hall because they all built a legacy that keeps them in the discussion.



I still see Bosco making occasional commercials in addition to working for BYU.



Legacy. Beats the heck out of what if?



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Cougarbib wrote:
According to Wikipedia:



Overly optimistic about draft. IMHO poorly advised by money grubbing agents.

Drafted 7th round

Cut shortly after draft



It does not say that he was even signed or paid anything.

Maybe. Maybe not. A pittance at best.



Horrible business decision driven by poor advice.



What is Walsh doing today. IDK. It does not say.



I do know what became of Sheide, Nielsen, Wilson, McMahon, Young, Bosco, Detmer, Sarkisian, Beck, and Hall because they all built a legacy that keeps them in the discussion.



I still see Bosco making occasional commercials in addition to working for BYU.



Legacy. Beats the heck out of what if?



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I won't argue about legacy, that speaks for itself. KVN was already one of the greatest LB's ever at Byu BEFORE this season. Now the legacy he is building is missed tackles ;)

Kyle was projected as a late 1st round early 2nd round guy after his junior year. His projections now are the same OR worse. Even with the advice he got on things to work on, he could have still been drafted high and worked on them as a pro instead.



Kyle's reasons to come back(his words) aren't aligned with what your saying. His main reason was that "he needed byu". As for legacy; i don't know where he sits on the all time #'s, from what I have heard(or haven't) He isn't going to be record breaking. Could be wrong.

Cougarbib wrote:



KVN either has it or he does not have it.







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He proved this after his junior year

stgeorgefan wrote:
Kyle was projected as a late 1st round early 2nd round guy after his junior year.

I assume you are going off of message boards and not the official NFL projection he received in January? Because what I've heard about the NFL opinion was nothing like going between picks 25 and 45.

snoscythe wrote:

Kyle was projected as a late 1st round early 2nd round guy after his junior year.

I assume you are going off of message boards and not the official NFL projection he received in January? Because what I've heard about the NFL opinion was nothing like going between picks 25 and 45.

Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember NFL people were say 3-4 round at best for him.

Cougarbib wrote:



KVN either has it or he does not have it.

What is it, an imaginary girl friend? :whistle:

snoscythe wrote:

John Walsh got paid.... signing a 1st round contract back (the CBA has made 1st round picks less valuable now than then) then is more money than most people make in their lifetimes. He was a bust but one that made a good business decision.

Um, Walsh got drafted in the 7th round, and back then got a non-guaranteed contract and didn't even make it out of camp. His signing bonus was less than $30K.

Complete brain fart... I was thinking about John Tait when I wrote that. I was at arrowhead stadium the day that he signed which was a little bit after Carl Peterson insulted John and his agent.



Note to self: double check what you read on 3 hours sleep in 48 hours... (new baby thing)

Cougarbib wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:
You need look no further than John Walsh to see what happens when gaudy stats bring hype and NFL Agents, and a player signs amidst hoopla and $ anticipation and leaves early with predictions to go early 1st round - possibly #1 pick



And then BAM



Combines. Oh - crap he is a slow runner - unexpected finding. BAM. Undrafted.



KVN either has it or he does not have it. But he has way more atrention this Year than last. More teams will give him a serious look. If he shows what they want to see in the combines he will go high. They already know he has the intangibles.



Hopefully, KVN will go late 1st round to a really good team with a specific need.



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John Walsh got paid.... signing a 1st round contract back (the CBA has made 1st round picks less valuable now than then) then is more money than most people make in their lifetimes. He was a bust but one that made a good business decision.

How much did he get Craig? If you do not know - admit that. Then guess. I do not know. There, I admitted that. I will bet you that Tucanos lunch that he got so much less than $1M that it wasn't even in the same neighborhood. $250K or less is my wild guess.



And, how are you so sure that after staying for another record breaking year and serious Heisman consideration that he would not have gotten that deal or even better. He was an excellent college QB.



If he was making really big bucks, one might argue that an extra year of making really big bucks is worth more than legacy and the real life-time earnings off the field that cone from such legacy. An extra year of working for peanuts is worth just that - peanuts - unless he built some legacy doing that.



Read the novel Playing For Pizza - that guy did, fictionally of course, build a legacy and find the love of his life, playing for pizza and peanuts professionally in Italy.



Finally Craig - CBA? Wrong sport.



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1st I was thinking about John Tait... 2nd CBA is the collective bargaining agreement and the 1st round picks now get paid significantly less after the last one 3rd Tait made nearly $50 million in his career 4th I shouldn't be on chat groups after my wife just had a baby I've had only a few hours sleep the last 2 days.. lastly I was on my mission to Bulgaria when John Walsh played... I remember nothing about him



Tait left a year early too and it paid off for him, but he didn't like his time in KC and KC didn't like him. Except for me. I split time with him teaching sunday school at the singles ward for a while.

Y12 wrote:
This assault on KVN is an outrage. No, this is not a knee jerk reaction to the original post. I went back and watched the game again, and here is what I saw.



Uani Unga 15 tackles

Alani Fua 13 tackles

Spencer Hadley 12 tackles



Unga the middle linebacker and the outside linebackers opposite KVN had most of the tackles (yes, Hadley is playing OLB again it was noted on BYU TV's pregame show).



That means, Boise State made a very conscious effort to AVOID Van Noy. It is very hard to make a lot of tackles and plays if you are not near the ball. Even though, he had a key pass breakup on an early third down (almost a sack/forced fumble) that helped set the tone in the game. He also had a key fumble recovery because he was not being lazy, rather he was pursuing the play (one of the many plays that went away from him).



On that QB sneak on 4th and 1 at the BYU 12-yard line, Van Noy is the reason the Boise QB did not get the first down. He came off the edge and pulled him back just enough to stop his forward progress and give the rest of the defense in the middle to get enough surge to push back the line and prevent the first down. That was a VERY BIG stop for BYU. Boise State probably scores a TD to make it 10-7 if they convert that first down, and we have an entirely different ball game.



KVN had a solid game against Boise State.



No it was not perfect, but no where near deserving of a thread ripping him apart.



Don't get me wrong. I wish every game Van Noy stepped on the field and had a combination of his Tulsa and San Diego State bowl games, but it just doesn't happen, which is why those games are so special.



Houston he did have a problem taking down O'Korn, and it will probably cost him some $$$$ in the draft. Was it a result of laziness, or any lack of effort? I don't think so.



O'Korn is 6'4". KVN is not used to playing QBs that size, so his usual tactics didn't work as well. That is something he has to learn to adjust to, because the NFL has a lot of big QBs who won't go down as easily as he is used to.



You could even include running backs and receivers in that as well, which I think has been the NFL's big knock on Van Noy all along. He makes a lot of plays by being athletic enough to get to players he has no business tackling, but he makes a dive at their legs and takes them out. Truly athletic, but probably not going to work at the NFL because most players are bigger, faster, and stronger.



So, the Houston game may have dropped his draft stock, but not by much because it was just a reinforcement of what scouts already knew.



As for the season, Van Noy is on pace to have a career high for tackles, and at the half way point was on pace to equal his TFLs from last year and had already tied his career high for QBHs in a season. After 8 games, he now has a career high for pass breakups in a season.



KVN is getting it done this year. All he needs is a forced fumble and blocked punt to have a three peat on filling all the stat categories, which is unheard of.

Look, it's a message board so perhaps I was not as clear as I would have been in person. I think his playmaking and play disrupting abilities are as good as ever. Team are scheming to avoid him and he is making defense adjust. But I ask again, how many behind the los tackles have you seen him miss the last 2 seasons? I don't remember any. However, this year he has missed quite a few and some have resulted in huge plays. What I see is lazy tackling because he's diving at people instead of driving his body through them more often than he used to.



I'm not the only one who is seeing this so the return "bashing" by some on this thread is a bit embarrassing. I don't mean to bash KVN...I simply meant to bring up a discussion about his level of play. If I'm wrong about laziness, please offer an alternate explanation. Injury? Increased fatigue due to more plays? If someone has inside information, by all means share it.

Maybe the guys who know where to find actual data can post the range of draft projections for KVN. The latest ones, because iirc, it dropped a bit as the draft declaration date approached.



In any event, projections are projections.



The Combine sometimes boosts or unravels those when it is too late to back out of leaving early.



I searched and found a 2005 D News or Trib article on Walsh. It said neither NFL Scouts nor BYU fans warmed up to him. He was not LDS. But, neither was McMahon. Arrogance was mentioned. Being cocky. LaVell was quoted as saying another year would have prepared him better for the NFL. He said he thought John made a mistake by going early.



His high school friends and coach gathered at his house on draft day expecting a 1st round call. It never came. Last QB taken. 7th round.



An undisclosed off-the-field injury was alluded to as impacting his ability to prove himself and ckimb back up. Spent 3 years trying to find any league. Then moved on.



The article was written 10 years after he left.



At that time, he was coaching little league soccer, married with children, and selling Snap-On Tools.



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mizzoucoug wrote:

This assault on KVN is an outrage. No, this is not a knee jerk reaction to the original post. I went back and watched the game again, and here is what I saw.



Uani Unga 15 tackles

Alani Fua 13 tackles

Spencer Hadley 12 tackles



Unga the middle linebacker and the outside linebackers opposite KVN had most of the tackles (yes, Hadley is playing OLB again it was noted on BYU TV's pregame show).



That means, Boise State made a very conscious effort to AVOID Van Noy. It is very hard to make a lot of tackles and plays if you are not near the ball. Even though, he had a key pass breakup on an early third down (almost a sack/forced fumble) that helped set the tone in the game. He also had a key fumble recovery because he was not being lazy, rather he was pursuing the play (one of the many plays that went away from him).



On that QB sneak on 4th and 1 at the BYU 12-yard line, Van Noy is the reason the Boise QB did not get the first down. He came off the edge and pulled him back just enough to stop his forward progress and give the rest of the defense in the middle to get enough surge to push back the line and prevent the first down. That was a VERY BIG stop for BYU. Boise State probably scores a TD to make it 10-7 if they convert that first down, and we have an entirely different ball game.



KVN had a solid game against Boise State.



No it was not perfect, but no where near deserving of a thread ripping him apart.



Don't get me wrong. I wish every game Van Noy stepped on the field and had a combination of his Tulsa and San Diego State bowl games, but it just doesn't happen, which is why those games are so special.



Houston he did have a problem taking down O'Korn, and it will probably cost him some $$$$ in the draft. Was it a result of laziness, or any lack of effort? I don't think so.



O'Korn is 6'4". KVN is not used to playing QBs that size, so his usual tactics didn't work as well. That is something he has to learn to adjust to, because the NFL has a lot of big QBs who won't go down as easily as he is used to.



You could even include running backs and receivers in that as well, which I think has been the NFL's big knock on Van Noy all along. He makes a lot of plays by being athletic enough to get to players he has no business tackling, but he makes a dive at their legs and takes them out. Truly athletic, but probably not going to work at the NFL because most players are bigger, faster, and stronger.



So, the Houston game may have dropped his draft stock, but not by much because it was just a reinforcement of what scouts already knew.



As for the season, Van Noy is on pace to have a career high for tackles, and at the half way point was on pace to equal his TFLs from last year and had already tied his career high for QBHs in a season. After 8 games, he now has a career high for pass breakups in a season.



KVN is getting it done this year. All he needs is a forced fumble and blocked punt to have a three peat on filling all the stat categories, which is unheard of.

Look, it's a message board so perhaps I was not as clear as I would have been in person. I think his playmaking and play disrupting abilities are as good as ever. Team are scheming to avoid him and he is making defense adjust. But I ask again, how many behind the los tackles have you seen him miss the last 2 seasons? I don't remember any. However, this year he has missed quite a few and some have resulted in huge plays. What I see is lazy tackling because he's diving at people instead of driving his body through them more often than he used to.



I'm not the only one who is seeing this so the return "bashing" by some on this thread is a bit embarrassing. I don't mean to bash KVN...I simply meant to bring up a discussion about his level of play. If I'm wrong about laziness, please offer an alternate explanation. Injury? Increased fatigue due to more plays? If someone has inside information, by all means share it.

Really???? If I were being called lazy, and my level of play was being called into question by a bunch of "fans" who really have NO IDEA what is going on, and have no business in my business, I would think that I was being bashed.



Several of us have offered viable "alternate explanations" on this thread, but they apparently don't meet your higher standard of discernment, so you just choose to ignore them.



Obviously "inside information" from KVN's position coach in Jay Drew's article yesterday fails to meet your higher standards as well.



I think it would do a lot of us well, to ponder a little bit on the difference between being a fan and being a troll.

snoscythe wrote:

Kyle was projected as a late 1st round early 2nd round guy after his junior year.

I assume you are going off of message boards and not the official NFL projection he received in January? Because what I've heard about the NFL opinion was nothing like going between picks 25 and 45.

I was going of "projections" from TV, message boards news etc.



I don't want to come across that I wanted KVN to leave last year and that he made a mistake to come back. My original comment was that senior expectations/fan expectations are the reason he could have gone after his monster Jr year.



I don't know if his draft stock has improved. Anthony Barr from UCLA is a LB that has. Tv guys say he would have gone 1st round last year. Some "projections" have kyle as the 3-4 best LB. A 1st-2 round pick would be up to how many teams want/need LB's.

stgeorgefan wrote:

stgeorgefan wrote:
Kyle was projected as a late 1st round early 2nd round guy after his junior year.

I assume you are going off of message boards and not the official NFL projection he received in January? Because what I've heard about the NFL opinion was nothing like going between picks 25 and 45.

I was going of "projections" from TV, message boards news etc.



I don't want to come across that I wanted KVN to leave last year and that he made a mistake to come back. My original comment was that senior expectations/fan expectations are the reason he could have gone after his monster Jr year.



I don't know if his draft stock has improved. Anthony Barr from UCLA is a LB that has. Tv guys say he would have gone 1st round last year. Some "projections" have kyle as the 3-4 best LB. A 1st-2 round pick would be up to how many teams want/need LB's.

From what I heard about Kyle's NFL evaluation is that they pegged his best-case scenario as a very late third round pick. His #1 negative was size--at his height and weight he was a tweener, smaller than the prototypical NFL OLB, and bigger than the prototypical safety.



With that info in hand, I think KVN made a wise choise to go back another year to bulk up with an extra 10-15 pounds in the offseason, and give the scouts a year of tape with him playing at the protoypical size for an NFL 3-4 OLB. The difference in pay for a fourth-rounder is significantly less than that of a late first-rounder, so if KVN can go before the middle of the 2nd round, his investment will have paid off in added income in his rooke contract over what he would have made under the NFL projection.



I know that the environment at BYU was also a big factor in his decision after his talks with Harvey Unga and Andrew Rich.



The NFL offers their evaluations (which are prepared anonymously by actual scouts from actual teams who get paid to evaluate that player's position) to give the player some uninterested data to consider. Agents are calling these guys overselling to try and get them as clients, and Mel Kiper, the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none "scout", is foaming rabidly at the mouth that half the graduating class could go on day one, so the NFL is trying to avoid another John Walsh.

What He Said - Sno - is what I recall hearing.



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Brian Urlacher was a safety in college and he ended up at MLB. I think KVN has a place on the right team and his production will be a big reason he goes higher than his initial projections. He's a football player. I'm not so sure Kyle couldn't play in a 4-3. He's great in coverage and we just don't have tape of what he'd look like. I have no doubt that he could put on some more weight and strength... those are measurable that can be improved. The intangibles, he's got. The IQ he's got. He can open field tackle. He's been asked to do for BYU what BYU needs, but I would be very curious to see him in a 4-3.



Vontaze Burfict was a terrifc player in college, had terrific production, but because of his awful 40 time and history of poor decision making, he went undrafted. He's now an incredibly productive player in the NFL. It's not a perfect system, but Burfict had some warts and teams were afraid of them. Kyle has a very high IQ, doesn't carry the risk of a Burfict, and is faster and taller than Burfict. If NFL teams knew what Burfict was going to be, he would have been a top 10 pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vontaze_Burfict" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



My eye tells me that if Manti Teo can find a place in a starting lineup in the NFL, then so can Kyle (better measurables, equivalent production). Kyle has the frame to add another 10-15 lbs and I would be shocked if he didn't go in day 1 to someone that appreciates production.

In no way am i bashing on Kyle, but I have said for a few years that he is a finesse player and tackler--and an amazing one at that. But the NFL wants hard hitting, physical LBs. I think this is a knock on KVN. My prediciton is that he will end up being a special teams player unless he puts on another 10-15 pounds of muscle.

I re watched the BSU game again, and watched for him specifically. What a treat to watch him as well as the rest of the D. I suspect KVN will be rested and ready to consistently and very visibly disrupt Wisc. I think that Wisc will be arrogant enough regarding the "quality" of their Big 10 athletes and won't shy away from running his way.

Clearly C_R you are not one whom I was calling out for bashing. You have not called him any names or complained about his character, which is exactly what some have done. An honest critique without demanding he change to satisfy you is not bashing.

In fact I have nothing but defended his play this year. He is a gifted and amazing college football player. He is likely an All-American and will garner other awards. He is not lackluster or lazy. And that post was a pathetic display toward a BYU hero.

Now as for the NFL, He will get serious consideration, praise and scrutiny. it will be a mixed analysis by pundits and scouts. and I believe he will be end of 1st round at highest or more likely bottom of second round.

He will be a great special teams player and sub in nicely. Who knows, if he puts on more weight he could have a career similar to Bryan Kehl's and maybe better.

I think a lot of the added scrutiny comes from KVN being dethroned as the superstar of the team by Taysom.