Better positioned BYU or utah?

So desnews has an article right now about who is better positioned with the conference realignments. I think both schools did very well for themselves as far as their individual goals are concerned. I'd of course give the edge to BYU because BYUtv has the opportunity to become one of the most exciting projects that a university has used to this point.



Here's a jewel of a comment that was in the comments section:



I find it funny, actually pathetic, that most of the over-zealous BYU fans on the D News threads seem to forget how bad last season was for BYU football. Close wins against UW and the debacle SDSU game barely made BYU bowl eligible. When is there ever going to be one ounce of character or humility shown by Cougar fans? It is a shame. And this upcoming season...............? BYU is not that good with a very suspect defense and they could get rocked again big time.



Of course, DESNEWS denied my comment which is as follows, I obviously was simply trying to prove a point not be argumentative or belittle anyone:



I find it funny, actually pathetic, that most of the over-zealous Utah fans on the D News threads seem to forget how bad last season was for Utah football. Close wins against SDSU and the debacle BYU game could have easily cost the utes their last 5 games. When is there ever going to be one ounce of character or humility shown by Ute fans? It is a shame. And this upcoming season...............? Utah is not that good and graduated a ton of talent... they could get rocked again big time.





A few things:

1. THANKS you CougarCorner for letting me talk a bit of smack.

2. BYU is going to destroy the little u this year.

I will agree with the article on one point. Utah is in a more secure position. That can't be denied. What BYU is trying to do is innovative and daring, but it definitely has some major risk involved.



Another topic that has come up recently is someone wrote an article somewhere saying that there is a seismic shift in the state of Utah away from BYU to Utah. This I don't agree with. No BYU fan that I know will be changing allegiances. I do, however, think that kids that are now in elementary school may become fans of Utah, if they do well in the Pac-12, but I also think it's more likely that there will be people that are fans of both teams. As the home schedule for BYU ramps up, and if they can continue to schedule the Utah and BYU home games on opposite weeks, or at least at different times, a lot of people will buy season tickets for both teams to see good football every week.

I agree with Stuckingbig. A lot - a whole lot - depends on how either BYU or "them Yewts" do this coming season. Folks will be evaluating both teams & their records in their new adventures.



I think it's a bit premature to talk about a "seismic shift" to the Yewts because they are simply in the PAC-Whatever. I think Yewt fans are going to have a rude awakening this year. They'll finish over .500 - but not by much. It will be years - years till the Yewts compete for a PAC-Whatever Championship (IMHO).



Declocoug - very funny post! Ha-ha-ha!!! Zing! :D

I think the DesNews should disable all comments for any BYU or Utah sports related article.

Let's call a spade a spade.



Utah is in a great position. They just joined one of the best conferences in the country, one that will reward them with a Rose Bowl bid (or NC bid) if they win the conference. If we were in their position we'd be rubbing it all in their faces.



I do think independence is a good fit for BYU, at least for now, and will make the very best of the fact that we have not yet been offered a spot in a power conference. But I hope it doesn't last too long, for the sake of other sports like basketball. You can say what you want but playing in the high school gyms of the wcc sux.



The reality is Utah has eclipsed BYU performance-wise. They have been to BCS games twice, and won both times. We have yet to make our first appearance. They are no longer the re-headed stepchild. We have a better tradition and greater fan base, but it is their program that has really made progress lately.

Lets call a spade a spade. Utah doesn't even have a men's track team. Didn't the Pac 12 have to loan them money to buy out their basketball coaches contract, so they didn't have such a sucky basketball team in their conference? When exacty are they going to see those big bucks, cuz I'm thinking the Independence investment starts paying right away.

hypercoug wrote:
Let's call a spade a spade.



Utah is in a great position. They just joined one of the best conferences in the country, one that will reward them with a Rose Bowl bid (or NC bid) if they win the conference. If we were in their position we'd be rubbing it all in their faces.



I do think independence is a good fit for BYU, at least for now, and will make the very best of the fact that we have not yet been offered a spot in a power conference. But I hope it doesn't last too long, for the sake of other sports like basketball. You can say what you want but playing in the high school gyms of the wcc sux.



The reality is Utah has eclipsed BYU performance-wise. They have been to BCS games twice, and won both times. We have yet to make our first appearance. They are no longer the re-headed stepchild. We have a better tradition and greater fan base, but it is their program that has really made progress lately.

I was ready to say "amen" until I got to your last paragraph. I disagree. They went down the highway and hit all of the green lights--it happens. Other than those seasons, we've beaten them all but last year. That's not enough to me to make your argument. The BCS wins were what they are, same as our National Championship--in the past. I see them as being a very good program FB wise, but since you have to look at the whole picture and see all of their sports, there is NO proof IMHO that they have eclipsed us performance wise if you're going to actually call a spade a spade.



Haven't we won the Deseret Dual 2 of the last 3 (or is it 3 of the last 4) years? Even 2 of last 3 would make it hard to say Utah has "eclipsed" BYU.

Utah will take a few years to get up to speed financially, without a doubt. BYU generates more now, and will come close to what the U generates in the near future, without even taking donations into consideration. BYU thumps the U in regards to facilities and costs. BYU does not build until it is paid for, and Utah will have to leverage facilities and other costs for a while, unless donations go way up for them.



Having said that, jumping from a conference that will pay then $4-5M per year, to one tat will pay out $20-30M per is a HUGE change. Huge. BYU will not touch $25M per from all sources of TV revenue for all sports.

Dwight wrote:
Lets call a spade a spade. Utah doesn't even have a men's track team. Didn't the Pac 12 have to loan them money to buy out their basketball coaches contract, so they didn't have such a sucky basketball team in their conference? When exacty are they going to see those big bucks, cuz I'm thinking the Independence investment starts paying right away.

Indeed it does!



:evil: http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/252/brigham-young-cougars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:utard: http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/254/utah-utes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



7 ESPN appearances to 1 - and that one is because they're playing us. :D

Track team? Deseret Duel?



Nothing matters but Football and Basketball. Those are the only money generators, and the only sports with any significant fan following.



Yes independence is great for BYU, and a good fit. At least for now. Yes, it will pay well, and immediately. But c'mon... A spot in the PAC-12 would have been better. I, for one, am jealous of Utah (for this one thing) now. Still better to be a coug, but much much much better to be a frUte than it used to be. Utah is on the rise. There is no doubt about it. BYU is in kind of a stagnant phase but I think independence will help that. The ESPN contract will be great.

hypercoug wrote:
Track team? Deseret Duel?



Nothing matters but Football and Basketball. Those are the only money generators, and the only sports with any significant fan following.



Yes independence is great for BYU, and a good fit. At least for now. Yes, it will pay well, and immediately. But c'mon... A spot in the PAC-12 would have been better. I, for one, am jealous of Utah (for this one thing) now. Still better to be a coug, but much much much better to be a frUte than it used to be. Utah is on the rise. There is no doubt about it. BYU is in kind of a stagnant phase but I think independence will help that. The ESPN contract will be great.

If football and basketball are the only sports that matter, then Utah is clearly in decline, or have you missed their last few seasons?

EM_Puma wrote:

I was ready to say "amen" until I got to your last paragraph. I disagree. They went down the highway and hit all of the green lights--it happens. Other than those seasons, we've beaten them all but last year. That's not enough to me to make your argument. The BCS wins were what they are, same as our National Championship--in the past. I see them as being a very good program FB wise, but since you have to look at the whole picture and see all of their sports, there is NO proof IMHO that they have eclipsed us performance wise if you're going to actually call a spade a spade.



Haven't we won the Deseret Dual 2 of the last 3 (or is it 3 of the last 4) years? Even 2 of last 3 would make it hard to say Utah has "eclipsed" BYU.

I was pretty much just meaning football here - sorry if I was unclear. And I am just talking about recently. Utah finished undefeated and 6th ranked in 2004 and undefeated and 2nd ranked in 2008. Those are fantastic, notable accomplishments. Utah's performance on the field in the last decade has eclipsed BYU's. I'm not sure if talking about 1984 means all that much anymore - yes, it was great, but also a long time ago. We have the tradition, the facilities, the fans.... many other assets. The U has done more with less and is on a course upward. It doesn't take anything away from BYU to recognize that.

hawkwing wrote:

If football and basketball are the only sports that matter, then Utah is clearly in decline, or have you missed their last few seasons?

Tee hee! I have watched the basketball program slide into oblivion with a great deal of satisfaction.



As for football they beat us last year, remember. Both BYU/Utah were rebuilding last year and both have potential to be quite good in the next few seasons ahead.



But getting into the Pac-12 is going to help the U in a lot of ways and it is silly to ignore that or deny that.



Maybe I am coming off as too much of a "realist", as I know the realist faction was so dearly loved a few years back.

Utah was not rebuilding last year.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Utah was not rebuilding last year.

They are this year.

I think that this move to the pac-12 may have been a huge gamble on utah's part. They have to realize that most of their fan base are BYU haters and not uofu fans. So they could turn into another bottom of the totem pole team in the pac-12. How is Utah's fan base going to deal with that? I think they'll jump ship unless they are contending for the pac-12 championship game. They no longer have the BYU rivalry to lean on as the game will most likely be played early in the year with a lot less at stake.



Just because you're in the pac-12 doesn't mean you're going to be great, which is the sentiment I get when I read and hear comments from ute fans, and some BYU fans. AZ and ASU have struggled to even make headlines, WSU is as bad or worse than the bottom of the MWC, Washinton has struggled mightily, ORegon has been fairly consistent while OSU is the definition of inconsistency. The California schools have all had some success here and there but all pale in comparison with USC who I imagine will once again become the big dog of the pac-12 after a few years of struggling and getting a new coach who legitimately cleans house. And these teams still struggle against MWC teams after getting millions more year after year. Really, who would trade BYU's record in the MWC with WSU's to be in the pac-10. Point is, Utah is going to a conference where only 1-2 teams have done really well the last decade and they will most likely become a run of the mill pac-12 team that enjoys sporadic success and a lot of mediocre years.



Again, how is Utah's fan base going to deal with that? Especially with the much toned down nature of the BYU rivalry which seemed to keep them pumped up more than any other game.



Now understand that Utah could also make a huge splash, especially with all the other teams down and out. I'll admit it, pac-10 football hasn't been so hot lately and USC is going to have some rough years. Utes could become a major player in the pac-12.



I think it's highly likely that utah loses just under half their games for a few years, and then it's anyone's guess as to what happens. They could become the next USC (which I really doubt), or the next WSU. Most likely they become another team like Arizona. But those that think it's a no brainer better situation simply because of the money need to realize that utah just went from being one of the big fish in a small pond to a mid-sized-fish-at-best in a much higher stakes pond.

The great thing for both teams is that they now have a stage for them to make themselves or break themselves. If Utah does well and is consistently in the top of the PAC12, they will be major players. If they are consistently in the bottom, they will rarely be on TV and lose fans. No amount of money will trump the exposure success will bring.



BYU also has a stage to build itself into a national brand, all the money we need is there for the taking, but again, it's the exposure of winning that will decide if we're going to be a great success.

You are right that men't track isn't a big deal. However, I must say that even my impoverished highschool had a men's track team. BYU's track team has a long legacy of providing representatives in the Summer Olympics. World class runners like Henry Marsh, Doug Padilla, and Ed Eyestone. Ring any bells? My point is that Utah's athletic program really is second class to BYU in it's historic legacy, facilities, fan base, and most of all class. If you are wondering about that last point, just watch the nature of their respective celebrations on the field 2010 vs 2009. Max's tirade may not have been appropriate, but it wasn't vile, and it was factually correct. The only thing these schools have in common is geography and the fact that a good number of U students actually applied to BYU, but didn't get in. This is the real reason many members that attend the U have a disdain for a school that their tithing money subsidizes. I've often wanted to bring that last point up with some of my member friends that say they hate BYU.

YEah.... probably best not to bring up that last point with friends Dwight. Could cause a ruckus.

I thought that Stewart Mandell's article (quoted in the article in the topic post in this thread) was actually spot on. Utah's move was a good one, one with great potential. BYU's move to independence is also a good move for BYU, one that will pay off in a couple years as football schedules finalize. I'm not as nervous about the staff shakeup at BYU, just as I'm not sure that Utah will hold onto Whittingham forever.