Truth and Perception, Was: Bitter, hateful article

BlueIsBetter wrote:

Ddawg wrote:

That was an excellent article. It was quite slanted, but informative. Very interesting to hear those former student athletes' sides of the story.

So - if it's "quite slanted" (which is another way to say negative spin and propaganda). How can it be an "excellent article?"

:bug:

Because it offers the other point of view. There are two sides to every coin.



In our eyes no racism occurs. In their eyes racism occurs. From their perspective BYU is racist. Not going to change that but it's informative to read why they think we're that way.



You can rant all you want that their perception is wrong/inaccurate, but perception is reality. So, is BYU racist? Yes, from their perspective. It's a no-win scenario. It's like a homosexual trying to convince LDS members gay marriage is okay. Not going to change the perception.

Gunk, you are totally and completely wrong here.



Perception isn't reality. Perception is perception. Reality is reality. If someone is claiming a false perception to be a reality, then they are wrong.





This type of thinking is a big part of what is wrong with the world.



(I mean no offense towards you, I like you a as a poster. This is just such a blatantly wrong post that I had to address it.)

No, I am not. It's a concept I studied thoroughly while at BYU. Perception is reality. Reality is subjective. Yes, there is an ultra-reality, an ultimate truth or bird's eye view of what really happened. That would essentially by God's view of reality. God is the only one that can have such a view because he's all-knowing and sees everything. We don't, so we couldn't possibly know what actually happened. It's why two people can see the same event and have to completely different stories.



For us mere mortals the "truth" of what happens to us is all subjective to our interpretation of events. We base our interpretation primarily off of our own experience and what's been passed down by others. We make choices, which in turn affect reality, based on our interpretations of the world we know.



For example, the "best" car someone could buy is completely subjective. If in reality, people were to only buy the "best" cars, the U.S. auto industry would have been dead in the water 20 years ago. Instead, people have their various views, prejudices and interpretations as to what the "best" car is. I could care less about the number of cup holders; however, numerous studies show Americans love cup holders, hence all the cup holders in U.S. made cars. Believe it or not, thousands of people (primarily women) each year base their decision off of which car to buy on the number of cup holders. Cars with crappy cup holders are not the "best" cars in their minds. Throwing in another cup holder is a lot cheaper for Chevrolet then investing in a better engine, yet the effect is the same: increased sales.



Another example. Most of my life I've grown up as one of the few Mormons in the area. There were 6 of us at my high school and fewer still at my places of employment. People base their view/reality of what a Mormon is by what they see me do. They know one Mormon, me, and if I do something that must mean all the other Mormons do it too.



Too often I've noticed when Mormons from Utah, Idaho or Arizona move into the area they complain about being "teased" at work. "People keep calling me The Mormon Guy and it's offensive." Why are they offended? They think people are teasing them or prejudice towards them, when they aren't. They take the nickname and completely misinterpret it. To them, they are being discriminated against and that feels very "real."



Glad you like me as a poster. See, I could have interpreted that you hated me and thus walked away from CougarCorner (I'm sure many would cheer), instead, I took no offense to your post because I know you posted your opinion based on what you know to be true. The world could actually use a bit more of that. Too much offense is being taken when none is intended.

Dcr36 wrote:

Kajdin wrote:

I just read the "article." There's a bad vibe just reading that article. I'm no Peter Priesthood, but I didn't like the feeling I got while reading it.

Same exact feeling I didn't even make it through the first paragraph before I stopped reading because it felt wrong.

Kinda sounds like our good friend "cognitive dissonance" doesn't it?



Okay! Okay! I know! I know! I'm done. I'm done. :sulk:

Come on, man. That's really rude and uncalled for.



I keep trying to walk away from this thread but I'm getting a little tired of the insinuation that because I find this article to be abhorrent, I'm somehow "sticking my head in the sand" and refusing to acknowledge an unpleasant reality about the school/the athletic program/the church/whatever.



The reason I don't like the article is because it's not even trying to be honest. Frankly, if there's a story here, these two writers have done it a disservice by trying to muddy and black-eye every institution and department possible. Pringle sounds like he may have had a legitimate reason to be upset with BYU. The Crowton years are something most BYU fans regret for reasons beyond the on-field shortcomings. And posters both here and on CougarBoard have come up with reasons for the discrepancy in disciplinary actions that any authoritative article would have at least made a token effort to explore:



-lack of clearly-defined advisors for non-LDS athletes means they're more likely to be "caught" when the violations have escalated to an unacceptable lever

-cultural attitudes towards authority figures (I'm no sociologist, but I wouldn't be surprised if a historically-underprivileged group of people would be less willing to cooperate/barter deals with authority figures, thus equalling more expulsions)

-as Dick Harmon pointed out, LDS kids/RMs who break the rules (yes, Gunk and dave, I acknowledge they exist) have years of experience hiding transgressions from parents/peers/teachers/church leaders. A stranger to BYU with no intent of following the honor code most likely lacks this experience.



ANY article on racism and athletics at BYU would have to examine AT LEAST SOME of the other plausible explanations beyond "BYU lies to black kids to recruit them, but really they're totally racist, so then they kick 'em out!" (Which if you think about it, really isn't a plausible explanation at all.) Instead of decent analysis, however, we just get bitter and disenfranchised athletes complaining about not getting playing time. We get some guy who never got close to breaking the 2-deep essentially calling Curtis Brown an Uncle Tom for getting baptized in order to get playing time, nevermind the fact he's our 2ND LEADING RUSHER OF ALL TIME. (I'm confused; do we hate black athletes, or just the non-LDS black athletes?) We get reputable source Ryan Kessman, last seen on "Bully Beatdown" and "Dr. Phil," acting as the primary source for WAAAAAY too many of the article's allegations. If there's a reason "cognitive dissonance" is causing me to not accept some of the claims of this article, it's because there's another part of my brain that handles something called "logic" and it can't accept ANY of the following conclusions.



I don't think anybody has really touched on my biggest pet peeve of the article yet. As with every HC violation that ever occurs, we rarely work with all the facts. The HC doesn't report them, which is the right thing to do. I don't want to know all the sordid details of Davies' or Unga's or anybody else's discretions; even if their leakings via the press are inevitable, I'm happy that the honor code office respects the private nature of the repentance process. This article takes that respect, flips it on the university, and suggests that the information is kept private in order to keep the university's affairs "secret." That's such a dirty rhetorical trick.



Look, there are few things that depress me more than the fact that the Church (and by extension, BYU) is still viewed warily by many within the black community. I understand there are many reasons for that, some more valid than others. If we want to engage in an honest, non-sensationalistic discussion of what could be done to improve the status quo, I'm all for it. But honestly, what does this article accomplish? I can't imagine this article actually "solving" anything at BYU; most of the problems addressed have been largely resolved by Rose's and Bronco's recruiting strategies, and any problems that actually exist and persist at BYU aren't going to be resolved by the article's "OMG BYU hates black people" tone. If I was a black non-member being recruited by BYU, this article would probably make me think twice about coming to Provo. That means no more Curtis Browns or Corby Easons, guys who found something of inestimable worth by heading here. That means no more Lamont Morgans or Brian Logans, guys who gave so much to us here at BYU and seem to be getting a lot in return. This article pisses me off because it feigns a noble purpose but offers nothing in the way of resolution. It just wants to mess stuff up.

Good points.



I find it odd that these authors accuse BYU of being racist when BYU was the one that recruited them. If BYU were really racist, we simply wouldn't recruit minorities. End of story.



You ask, "What does this article accomplish?" I agree the purpose of the article was to promote an agenda (99 percent of articles are written for such) and it's a horribly written, illogical article that masks itself as "research." But, this article did get us talking about an important issue and IMO did get us on this forum having a rather "honest, non-sensationalistic discussion," albeit not necessarily on what could be done to resolve the issue, but a healthy discussion nonetheless, which I've enjoyed.

Cougy_Monster wrote:

taekwondave wrote:

ill have a full docket and I don't doubt that these things do happen, but it is not the norm. If you know of this crap going on then you should turn them in because you probably went to BYU so you didn't have to put up with that crap.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Is THAT why you think I came to BYU???



Look, bro, I get that SOME kids come to BYU because they look at this honor code thing like a wall of protection against "the world." You apparently would be one of those. But there are more than just a handful of us who come to BYU despite the honor code, not because of it. BYU has other things it offers that no other University truly can that have NOTHING to do with the honor code and for those reasons only a great deal of students come to BYU. So no, some of us don't feel comfortable acting like gestapo just because the BYU gods have asked us to.

I'm scratching my head here. I'm not really sure why a rank-and-file student would choose to go to BYU without the moral climate being at least a partial motivating factor.



I mean, BYU's a good school, but there are still 70 other schools in the nation that offer a stronger undergrad program, and many of them are easier to get in to. If the honor code is an abhorrent factor that weighs against your willingness to attend at BYU, what does Provo offer that makes up for it? Cheaper tuition? Proximity? Family pressure?

Answer: Blazing hot chicks.

Don't forget Sat. night disco skating...wait that's Orem...

Gunk wrote:

Gunk wrote:

taekwondave wrote:
That was an excellent article. It was quite slanted, but informative. Very interesting to hear those former student athletes' sides of the story.

So - if it's "quite slanted" (which is another way to say negative spin and propaganda). How can it be an "excellent article?"

:bug:

Because it offers the other point of view. There are two sides to every coin.



In our eyes no racism occurs. In their eyes racism occurs. From their perspective BYU is racist. Not going to change that but it's informative to read why they think we're that way.



You can rant all you want that their perception is wrong/inaccurate, but perception is reality. So, is BYU racist? Yes, from their perspective. It's a no-win scenario. It's like a homosexual trying to convince LDS members gay marriage is okay. Not going to change the perception.

Gunk, you are totally and completely wrong here.



Perception isn't reality. Perception is perception. Reality is reality. If someone is claiming a false perception to be a reality, then they are wrong.





This type of thinking is a big part of what is wrong with the world.



(I mean no offense towards you, I like you a as a poster. This is just such a blatantly wrong post that I had to address it.)

No, I am not. It's a concept I studied thoroughly while at BYU. Perception is reality. Reality is subjective. Yes, there is an ultra-reality, an ultimate truth or bird's eye view of what really happened. That would essentially by God's view of reality. God is the only one that can have such a view because he's all-knowing and sees everything. We don't, so we couldn't possibly know what actually happened. It's why two people can see the same event and have to completely different stories.



For us mere mortals the "truth" of what happens to us is all subjective to our interpretation of events. We base our interpretation primarily off of our own experience and what's been passed down by others. We make choices, which in turn affect reality, based on our interpretations of the world we know.



For example, the "best" car someone could buy is completely subjective. If in reality, people were to only buy the "best" cars, the U.S. auto industry would have been dead in the water 20 years ago. Instead, people have their various views, prejudices and interpretations as to what the "best" car is. I could care less about the number of cup holders; however, numerous studies show Americans love cup holders, hence all the cup holders in U.S. made cars. Believe it or not, thousands of people (primarily women) each year base their decision off of which car to buy on the number of cup holders. Cars with crappy cup holders are not the "best" cars in their minds. Throwing in another cup holder is a lot cheaper for Chevrolet then investing in a better engine, yet the effect is the same: increased sales.



Another example. Most of my life I've grown up as one of the few Mormons in the area. There were 6 of us at my high school and fewer still at my places of employment. People base their view/reality of what a Mormon is by what they see me do. They know one Mormon, me, and if I do something that must mean all the other Mormons do it too.



Too often I've noticed when Mormons from Utah, Idaho or Arizona move into the area they complain about being "teased" at work. "People keep calling me The Mormon Guy and it's offensive." Why are they offended? They think people are teasing them or prejudice towards them, when they aren't. They take the nickname and completely misinterpret it. To them, they are being discriminated against and that feels very "real."



Glad you like me as a poster. See, I could have interpreted that you hated me and thus walked away from CougarCorner (I'm sure many would cheer), instead, I took no offense to your post because I know you posted your opinion based on what you know to be true. The world could actually use a bit more of that. Too much offense is being taken when none is intended.

Good post, but I disagree with most of it. Eating sugar is not good for my body. No matter how many books titled "Sugar is good for you!!!" or how many sugar conventions I go to, the fact remains that it is not good for my body, and if I eat it I will get fat, and probably eventually make myself be a diabetic.



Your "ultra-reality" (that apparently only god knows, which is a false concept) is actually just reality. Or as some would like to interpret it - the truth. There is no "sub-version" of reality or truth. There is truth and error, and a whole myriad and degree of shades in between.



Perception isn't reality/truth. People can be convinced of something, but that doesn't make it real. I understand that it can be "real" to them, but it isn't actually real, in reality. Islamic terrorists hold that Western Society is the devil, and it is their duty to kill any and all involved in such a behavior or lifestyle. That is their perception, but it is not reality. You have wasted your time if you have come to the conclusion that many people can have alternate realities at the same time. I would ask for my money back, were I you. There can only be one reality, not many.



(Your car example doesn't stand, because we don't get to twist and mold reality according to our desires and wishes. Reality is reality, and we can choose to accept it, or not.)



And as far as religion, I don't want to hi-jack the thread. But it is God's purpose to make everything that He knows, known to us - in our own time. He does that through the Holy Spirit (who is a member of the Godhead, and knows what God knows.) There isn't some form of "Elite" truth or reality. Just plain 'ol truth and reality that we don't know yet. But it does exist, and it is there, and not in multiplicity.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

Good post, but I disagree with most of it. Eating sugar is not good for my body. No matter how many books titled "Sugar is good for you!!!" or how many sugar conventions I go to, the fact remains that it is not good for my body, and if I eat it I will get fat, and probably eventually make myself be a diabetic.

What if I don't mind being fat or diabetic? :P In some cultures being fat and diabetic is the goal in life.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

Your "ultra-reality" (that apparently only god knows, which is a false concept) is actually just reality. Or as some would like to interpret it - the truth. There is no "sub-version" of reality or truth. There is truth and error, and a whole myriad and degree of shades in between.

We may be getting into semantics here, but please tell me who else knows all besides God, Jesus or the Holy Ghost? How is the idea that God is the only one that knows all a false concept?

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Perception isn't reality/truth. People can be convinced of something, but that doesn't make it real. I understand that it can be "real" to them, but it isn't actually real, in reality. Islamic terrorists hold that Western Society is the devil, and it is their duty to kill any and all involved in such a behavior or lifestyle. That is their perception, but it is not reality. You have wasted your time if you have come to the conclusion that many people can have alternate realities at the same time. I would ask for my money back, were I you. There can only be one reality, not many.

How is Islamic terrorist blowing themselves up not real? They think the U.S. is the devil incarnate and blow themselves up in an effort to eradicate us. Seems very real to me. Try telling the victims that it isn't actually real. The terrorists may be misinformed, misled, etc. but their actions and consequences are real and have eternal ramifications. They perceive something to be true and in the end it becomes a reality.



Same goes for the rest of us. Whether that's buying cars or making false claims against universities.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

(Your car example doesn't stand, because we don't get to twist and mold reality according to our desires and wishes. Reality is reality, and we can choose to accept it, or not.)

God grants men according to their desires. Seems real to me. Seems like I can shape things how I want them. What if someone doesn't come in contact with this "reality" you speak of? How could they accept it or not? What state are they living in if they don't come in contact with it or choose not to accept it? Do they vanish?

BlueIsBetter wrote:
And as far as religion, I don't want to hi-jack the thread. But it is God's purpose to make everything that He knows, known to us - in our own time. He does that through the Holy Spirit (who is a member of the Godhead, and knows what God knows.) There isn't some form of "Elite" truth or reality. Just plain 'ol truth and reality that we don't know yet. But it does exist, and it is there, and not in multiplicity.

Thread was hi-jacked long before we got on this tangent. Again, we may be getting into semantics here, but in our current mortal state we can't understand all that God comprehends. We can't. We're incapable of it right now, so what's that leave us? It leaves us understanding and interpreting the world according to our own observations. Occasionally, precept upon precept, God will grace us with an eternal perspective. God understands what is, what once was and what will be all at the same time. We don't.

I am the KING of thread hijacking. :lol: :lol:



Enjoy:



"AGAIN the twelve were gathered together in the Circle of palm trees, and one of them even Thomas said to the other, What is Truth? for the same things appear different to different minds, and even to the same mind at different times. What, then, is Truth?



And as they were speaking Jesus appeared in their midst and said, Truth, one and absolute, is in God alone, for no man, neither any body of men, knoweth that which God alone knoweth, who is the All in All.. To men is Truth revealed, according to their capacity to understand and receive.



The One Truth hath many sides, and one seeth one side only, another seeth another, and some see more than others, according as it is given to them.



Behold this crystal: how the one light its manifest in twelve faces, yea four times twelve, and each face reflecteth one ray of light, and one regardeth one face, and another another, but it is the one crystal and the one light that shineth in all.



Behold again, When one climbeth a mountain and attaining one height, he saith, This is the top of the mountain, let us reach it, and when they have reached that height, lo, they see another beyond it until they come to that height from which no other height is to be seen, if so be they can attain it.



So it is with Truth. I am the Truth and the Way and the Life, and have given to you the Truth I have received from above. And that which is seen and received by one, is not seen and received by another. That which appeareth true to some, seemeth not true to others. They who are in the valley see not as they who are on the hill top.



But to each, it is the Truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher Truth shall be revealed unto the same: and to the soul which receiveth higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore condemn not others, that ye be not condemned.



As ye keep the holy Law of Love, which I have given unto you, so shall the Truth be revealed more and more unto you, and the Spirit of Truth which cometh from above shall guide you, albeit through many wanderings, into all Truth, even as the fiery cloud guided the children of Israel through the wilderness.



Be faithful to the light ye have, till a higher light is given to you. Seek more light, and ye shall have abundantly; rest not, till ye find.



God giveth you all Truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seemeth to day, ye will abandon for the higher truth of the morrow. Press ye unto Perfection.



Whoso keepeth the holy Law which I have given, the same shall save their souls, however differently they may see the truths which I have given.



Many shall say unto me, Lord, Lord, we have been zealous for thy Truth. But I shall say unto them, Nay, but, that others may see as ye see, and none other truth beside. Faith without charity is dead. Love is the fulfilling of the Law.



How shall faith in what they receive profit them that hold it in unrighteousness? They who have love have all things, and without love there is nothing worth. Let each hold what they see to be the truth in love, knowing that where love is not, truth is a dead letter and profiteth nothing.



There abide Goodness, and Truth, and Beauty, but the greatest of these is Goodness. If any have hatred to their fellows, and harden their hearts to the creatures of God’s hands, how can they see Truth unto salvation, seeing their eyes are blinded and their hearts are hardened to God’s creation?



As I have reveived the Truth, so have I given it to you. Let each receive it according to their light and ability to understand, and persecute not those who receive it after a different interpretation.



For Truth is the Might of God, and it shall prevail in the end over all errors. But the holy Law which I have given is plain for all, and just and good. Let all observe it for the salvation of their souls."

Gunk wrote:

Good post, but I disagree with most of it. Eating sugar is not good for my body. No matter how many books titled "Sugar is good for you!!!" or how many sugar conventions I go to, the fact remains that it is not good for my body, and if I eat it I will get fat, and probably eventually make myself be a diabetic.

What if I don't mind being fat or diabetic? :P In some cultures being fat and diabetic is the goal in life.

Oh I don't mind if that is what you want. Just saying that no matter how hard you try to make something into something it isn't, it just won't happen. You can bend your mind, but you can't bend the object. Unfortunately, as one of my favorite "teenhood" movies would falsely allude us to believe, there actually is a spoon. The trick being not to ignore it, but to accept that and incorporate that into your knowledge.

Gunk wrote:

Your "ultra-reality" (that apparently only god knows, which is a false concept) is actually just reality. Or as some would like to interpret it - the truth. There is no "sub-version" of reality or truth. There is truth and error, and a whole myriad and degree of shades in between.

We may be getting into semantics here, but please tell me who else knows all besides God, Jesus or the Holy Ghost? How is the idea that God is the only one that knows all a false concept?

I think we are arguing conjectures. God and the Godhead are the only ones that know all of the "realities" collectively. But they aren't the only ones with knowledge of reality. I think we are both in agreement here.

Gunk wrote:

Perception isn't reality/truth. People can be convinced of something, but that doesn't make it real. I understand that it can be "real" to them, but it isn't actually real, in reality. Islamic terrorists hold that Western Society is the devil, and it is their duty to kill any and all involved in such a behavior or lifestyle. That is their perception, but it is not reality. You have wasted your time if you have come to the conclusion that many people can have alternate realities at the same time. I would ask for my money back, were I you. There can only be one reality, not many.

How is Islamic terrorist blowing themselves up not real? They think the U.S. is the devil incarnate and blow themselves up in an effort to eradicate us. Seems very real to me. Try telling the victims that it isn't actually real. The terrorists may be misinformed, misled, etc. but their actions and consequences are real and have eternal ramifications. They perceive something to be true and in the end it becomes a reality.



Same goes for the rest of us. Whether that's buying cars or making false claims against universities.

That's a nice spin. ;) That isn't what I said. Their perception is not a reality. They are acting under a false pretense as if it is real, when it is not. Nice try. So because they blow themselves up, in the end I am the devil? :evil: I'm not following you.

Gunk wrote:

(Your car example doesn't stand, because we don't get to twist and mold reality according to our desires and wishes. Reality is reality, and we can choose to accept it, or not.)

God grants men according to their desires. Seems real to me. Seems like I can shape things how I want them. What if someone doesn't come in contact with this "reality" you speak of? How could they accept it or not? What state are they living in if they don't come in contact with it or choose not to accept it? Do they vanish?

God grants men according to RIGHTEOUS desires, which are based in truth. Do I really need to explain to you the "plan of salvation" to answer the last few questions you have? (Or do you not know it? I'd be happy to explain to you the last part if you need me to.)

Gunk wrote:

And as far as religion, I don't want to hi-jack the thread. But it is God's purpose to make everything that He knows, known to us - in our own time. He does that through the Holy Spirit (who is a member of the Godhead, and knows what God knows.) There isn't some form of "Elite" truth or reality. Just plain 'ol truth and reality that we don't know yet. But it does exist, and it is there, and not in multiplicity.

Thread was hi-jacked long before we got on this tangent. Again, we may be getting into semantics here, but in our current mortal state we can't understand all that God comprehends. We can't. We're incapable of it right now, so what's that leave us? It leaves us understanding and interpreting the world according to our own observations. Occasionally, precept upon precept, God will grace us with an eternal perspective. God understands what is, what once was and what will be all at the same time. We don't.

Right, but as we can't be saved in ignorance, it is up to us to learn line upon line, precept upon precept (or faster, if we can handle it) until we do know what He does. God isn't purposefully "holding out" on us. There is a higher wisdom, but it is not "elite" or separate truth. It is the same truth we have now, just more of it, and a deeper knowledge of it. Does that make sense?