This is not our ceiling

As I started to get down on my life after this loss and down on BYU by thinking what might have been, had we had the services of Brandon Davies for the last seven games, it occurred to me that there is no need for that. With the coaching that Rose offers this team, plus the recruits that have been, are, and will continue to poor in thanks to that, as long as we keep Rose, the Sweet Sixteen will not be the zenith of our basketball lives over the next few years. I would not be one bit surprised to see BYU in the national championship game before long. As long as we keep Rose, the only direction I see us going is up. Was Jimmer the greatest scorer to ever grace our floor? Yes. Will he always be? Well, I hope so, because I hope to have well-rounded enough teams in the future that we don't need someone like that to lean on. But records that last a long time, once they're broken, they seem to suffer a few more assaults in a short amount of time so I really wouldn't be surprised if another Jimmer was raised up among us soon enough. We'll see. But here's to a great year, and a greater future. Now let's talk about the real reason we're all here: Football :evil:

Amen Brother!

BYU has a lot of talent coming into the program. I will miss watching Jimmer put up 30, 40, and 50 pts on occasion but BYU is going to be really good for a long time. Coach Rose has done a fantastic job with BYU basketball and I expect it to continue. Don't even think for a second that next year BYU will be "rebuilding" I expect 20+ or even 25+ wins next year and a WCC championship. Just watch and see.

taekwondave wrote:
As I started to get down on my life after this loss and down on BYU by thinking what might have been, had we had the services of Brandon Davies for the last seven games, it occurred to me that there is no need for that. With the coaching that Rose offers this team, plus the recruits that have been, are, and will continue to poor in thanks to that, as long as we keep Rose, the Sweet Sixteen will not be the zenith of our basketball lives over the next few years. I would not be one bit surprised to see BYU in the national championship game before long. As long as we keep Rose, the only direction I see us going is up. Was Jimmer the greatest scorer to ever grace our floor? Yes. Will he always be? Well, I hope so, because I hope to have well-rounded enough teams in the future that we don't need someone like that to lean on. But records that last a long time, once they're broken, they seem to suffer a few more assaults in a short amount of time so I really wouldn't be surprised if another Jimmer was raised up among us soon enough. We'll see. But here's to a great year, and a greater future. Now let's talk about the real reason we're all here: Football :evil:

I agree with most of what you say. I believe Rose is a superior coach and will have BYU back in the hunt for the wcc title and the national title. I do not agree that the real reason we're all here is football. I like them both in thier season. I have to say, however, that bb this year was the more exciting of the 2.

I'm here for basketball.



Someone made the observation a while ago about how our current bench players would have been starters on past BYU teams. Under Rose, our players are progressively getting better. We have some great talent coming in.



Rose also, though, needs to get better. He's a great coach and deserves a raise. We're lucky to have him and I hope he stays for a long time. That said, to progress further IMO Rose is going to need to work on two things:



1 - Post play. Whether it's ball screens, post ups, cuts underneath or slashes to the hoop, we need more in-the-paint points. We need more balance.



2 - In-game adjustments. Rose needs to recognize what's working and what's not working and do a better job of adjusting, even if that means benching a struggling starter. It happened with JT and it happened with Jimmer. As cool as 40 foot 3 pointers are I sincerely hope we don't see them again. I worry that between JT and Jimmer a precedent has been set that those are good shots. They're not.

Gunk wrote:
I'm here for basketball.



Someone made the observation a while ago about how our current bench players would have been starters on past BYU teams. Under Rose, our players are progressively getting better. We have some great talent coming in.

The talent coming in the last two years and next year and others on the horizon are some of the best in BYU history. The future is very bright indeed.

Gunk wrote:
Rose also, though, needs to get better. He's a great coach and deserves a raise. We're lucky to have him and I hope he stays for a long time. That said, to progress further IMO Rose is going to need to work on two things:

Everyone can improve. No one can afford to rest on their laurels.

Gunk wrote:
1 - Post play. Whether it's ball screens, post ups, cuts underneath or slashes to the hoop, we need more in-the-paint points. We need more balance.

We had balance to start the season. Then lost some of that balance when Collinsworth got hurt. We regained that balance when Davies really came on. Then we had nothing when he made his bed. Our post play, pre-Davies suspension, was some of the best we've had under Rose. Certainly the best since Keena Young.

Gunk wrote:
2 - In-game adjustments. Rose needs to recognize what's working and what's not working and do a better job of adjusting, even if that means benching a struggling starter. It happened with JT and it happened with Jimmer. As cool as 40 foot 3 pointers are I sincerely hope we don't see them again. I worry that between JT and Jimmer a precedent has been set that those are good shots. They're not.

JT was benched. Open shots are good shots. The shots Jimmer was taking yesterday were not because Florida was contesting them. They weren't open. Jimmer wasn't getting clean looks.



The coaches could have done better at trying to limit those, but what was the alternative? Please tell me who was making shots yesterday? Emery was 3-8, Hartsock 3-9, Abouo 2-9, Rogers 2-7. Collinsworth didn't want to shoot. Who was making shots yesterday? No one.



Rose has done a great job of in-game adjustments. Remember that great switch from zone to man-to-man against Gonzaga that changed the momentum completely in our favor. We didn't have answers for Florida. They were a better team than us yesterday. Remember the other guy can make adjustments too.

SpiffCoug wrote:

I'm here for basketball.



Someone made the observation a while ago about how our current bench players would have been starters on past BYU teams. Under Rose, our players are progressively getting better. We have some great talent coming in.

The talent coming in the last two years and next year and others on the horizon are some of the best in BYU history. The future is very bright indeed.

Gunk wrote:
Rose also, though, needs to get better. He's a great coach and deserves a raise. We're lucky to have him and I hope he stays for a long time. That said, to progress further IMO Rose is going to need to work on two things:

Everyone can improve. No one can afford to rest on their laurels.

Gunk wrote:
1 - Post play. Whether it's ball screens, post ups, cuts underneath or slashes to the hoop, we need more in-the-paint points. We need more balance.

We had balance to start the season. Then lost some of that balance when Collinsworth got hurt. We regained that balance when Davies really came on. Then we had nothing when he made his bed. Our post play, pre-Davies suspension, was some of the best we've had under Rose. Certainly the best since Keena Young.

Gunk wrote:
2 - In-game adjustments. Rose needs to recognize what's working and what's not working and do a better job of adjusting, even if that means benching a struggling starter. It happened with JT and it happened with Jimmer. As cool as 40 foot 3 pointers are I sincerely hope we don't see them again. I worry that between JT and Jimmer a precedent has been set that those are good shots. They're not.

JT was benched. Open shots are good shots. The shots Jimmer was taking yesterday were not because Florida was contesting them. They weren't open. Jimmer wasn't getting clean looks.



The coaches could have done better at trying to limit those, but what was the alternative? Please tell me who was making shots yesterday? Emery was 3-8, Hartsock 3-9, Abouo 2-9, Rogers 2-7. Collinsworth didn't want to shoot. Who was making shots yesterday? No one.



Rose has done a great job of in-game adjustments. Remember that great switch from zone to man-to-man against Gonzaga that changed the momentum completely in our favor. We didn't have answers for Florida. They were a better team than us yesterday. Remember the other guy can make adjustments too.

Jimmer: 11/29 or 38%

Emery: 3/8 or 38%

Hartsock: 3/9 or 33%

Abouo: 2/9 or 22%

Rogers: 2/7 or 29%



Emery was shooting as well as Jimmer. Difference was Jimmer took 29 shots and Emery only took 8. Hartsock also was shooting close to Jimmer. You are right, no one, including Jimmer, was making shots. The only thing that was really working for us was getting to the foul line. Based on the rates above had Roger taken 29 shots he would have scored 18 points.



So, you're saying taking a shot from 40 feet away if you're open is a good shot? :skeptic: Jimmer took at least 4 wide-open shots 10 feet behind the arc. One he made, the rest he clanked off the rim into the hands of defenders. I don't care how open you are, 40 footers are not good shots. They are not high-probability shots.



Yes, JT was benched, but that had more to do with better talent coming in. JT would still come off the bench and proceed to jack up deep shots left and right. We complained about it extensively all the time last season. For some reason we cheer when Jimmer does it and booed when JT did it.



We're going to have to agree to disagree on our post game. It was okay with Davies, but largely consisted of Davies posting up and Davies' solo performance as opposed to any sort of play calling or strategy. This may be something more for Rice and LaComb to work on as they are the ones that coach the bigs directly, but post play is still an area of improvement. In general the movement on this team was marginal at best this season. There were flashes of brilliance every now and then, but as a whole there was too much Jimmer watching. And that, I attribute to coaching.

Gunk, I agree with your comments 100%! Hopefully these are areas BYU can improve on for the future. Especially the post play. Hardly any "plays" were run for the post, it was mainly just BD trying to make something happen.

Gunk wrote:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on our post game. It was okay with Davies, but largely consisted of Davies posting up and Davies' solo performance as opposed to any sort of play calling or strategy. This may be something more for Rice and LaComb to work on as they are the ones that coach the bigs directly, but post play is still an area of improvement.

I don't get this argument. Post play is almost always solo performance. You dump the ball into the post and the post player makes something happen. You think Davies just got the ball by accident? That there were no play calls or strategy to get him the ball?



Post play is still an area of improvement, but to suggest that it didn't improve from the previous year(s) is just inaccurate.

Gunk wrote:
In general the movement on this team was marginal at best this season. There were flashes of brilliance every now and then, but as a whole there was too much Jimmer watching. And that, I attribute to coaching.

This I will grant you, too many guys did just stand around and watch Jimmer. And Jimmer too many times failed to really get his teammates involved. But we've seen multiple games where that wasn't the case. When guys makes shots, it sure makes it seem like Jimmer is getting them involved.



It's the chicken or the egg argument. Are they standing around watching Jimmer because he won't get them involved or are they not involved because they're just standing around watching Jimmer?



The bottom line is the team had played better than they did on Thursday. The entire season should not be judged based on that one game.

This isn't the ceiling, although, I would suspect this is as far as we go next year. My theory is based on two things: 1-Rose remains at BYU and 2-Davies is back on the court next year.



I think we can have a really good year next year. I think Rose needs to be smart in early scheduling to give his team a chance to become cohesive, although, this is the year that BYU gets to go on an overseas basketball trip, so they may have a head start on that already (especially if Carlino is allowed to play-pending NCAA decision).



I actually think that Jackson may be the bigger loss for the team going into next year, as I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would replace him on the defensive side of the ball. Some will say Abouo, and while that is mostly true, who then steps up and replaces what Charles gives (maybe Chris Collinsworth?). I think Rogers will be able to hit a bunch of threes next year to take up some of the Jimmer void, Carlino sounds like he's the real deal, Harrison will be able to fill the role Kyle filled on this years team, Noah and Chris will have to be good defenders and hit open shots, but Brandon will become a bigger part of the offense. The team can throw it down to him when they really need a basket. He will probably average 16 to 20 points and 5 to 8 rebounds. Throw in three 6'10" to 7 footers (two of which will play, one will redshirt), and the team is deeper this coming year. I say next year is another sweet 16 year (if Davies is playing).



The year after that, other than Noah, no one of major consequence is leaving, but we get Haws back. If Brandon plays next year, he's a senior for this run, and can probably move to the 4, and with two 7 footers manning the 5. That will be at least an elite-8 team. If Davies doesn't play next year, this is still an elite 8 team with him as a junior, and the next year gets even better because Kyle comes back, and there will probably be another Emery on board, not to mention other prized recruits.



Jimmer's biggest future impact may be in a boon in recruiting. People have seen BYU and they have seen the way that they play.



Again, the key is Rose. He took a team that was a 9 win team, and turned it into a 20 win team, with basically the same starting 5. If Brandon plays next year, this is a 30 win team, again.

2012-13 is the year we will really see things take off. Our guard play will be ready by then with experience. we will have Harrison and Chatman in, Haws back, Davies and CC ready to go, plus perhaps a real surprise in Parker(miracle, I know), But we will be fine. Just expect a rebuild for next season.

Lawboy wrote:
2012-13 is the year we will really see things take off. Our guard play will be ready by then with experience. we will have Harrison and Chatman in, Haws back, Davies and CC ready to go, plus perhaps a real surprise in Parker(miracle, I know), But we will be fine. Just expect a rebuild for next season.

If I'm not mistaken the Parker miracle wouldn't happen until the 2013 - 2014 season once we have both Haws and KC and maybe Nick Emery. That could be a sick team

SpiffCoug wrote:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on our post game. It was okay with Davies, but largely consisted of Davies posting up and Davies' solo performance as opposed to any sort of play calling or strategy. This may be something more for Rice and LaComb to work on as they are the ones that coach the bigs directly, but post play is still an area of improvement.

I don't get this argument. Post play is almost always solo performance. You dump the ball into the post and the post player makes something happen. You think Davies just got the ball by accident? That there were no play calls or strategy to get him the ball?



Post play is still an area of improvement, but to suggest that it didn't improve from the previous year(s) is just inaccurate.

Gunk wrote:
In general the movement on this team was marginal at best this season. There were flashes of brilliance every now and then, but as a whole there was too much Jimmer watching. And that, I attribute to coaching.

This I will grant you, too many guys did just stand around and watch Jimmer. And Jimmer too many times failed to really get his teammates involved. But we've seen multiple games where that wasn't the case. When guys makes shots, it sure makes it seem like Jimmer is getting them involved.



It's the chicken or the egg argument. Are they standing around watching Jimmer because he won't get them involved or are they not involved because they're just standing around watching Jimmer?



The bottom line is the team had played better than they did on Thursday. The entire season should not be judged based on that one game.

Good teams with a post presence don't rely on a single guy posting up down low. They send guys back door, they have them cut from the top of the key to the weak side, they let defenses collapse on the post and pass it out, they have a guard drive to the hoop and dish it the big rotating over, etc. Things, BYU very rarely does. Mix some improved post play in with our outside shooting and BYU would be very hard to stop.

Success builds success. Last year Butler went to the finals and lost their best player. This year, they are back in the final four. Several years ago, Utah went to the elite 8 and lost their best player. The next year, they went to the finals. It all hinges on the ability of Rose to sell the dream.

One of the things I like about Rose is that he actually has the dream of NCAA success and is actively trying to sell it. Unlike Cleveland, who left complaining about the unrealistic expectations of the administration, Rose believes we can win the tournament. I believe that next year, he will put together another team which will win some games in the tournament. He might even make it further than this year. Rose can teach defense. Defense wins tournament games.



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rblack wrote:
Success builds success. Last year Butler went to the finals and lost their best player. This year, they are back in the final four. Several years ago, Utah went to the elite 8 and lost their best player. The next year, they went to the finals. It all hinges on the ability of Rose to sell the dream.

One of the things I like about Rose is that he actually has the dream of NCAA success and is actively trying to sell it. Unlike Cleveland, who left complaining about the unrealistic expectations of the administration, Rose believes we can win the tournament. I believe that next year, he will put together another team which will win some games in the tournament. He might even make it further than this year. Rose can teach defense. Defense wins tournament games.



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Agreed.