Coaching Hires & That Chip On Bronco's Shoulder

Let me first say that I appreciate Bronco. I also trust him.



However, not to sound too Marsish but Bronco has a pretty big chip on his shoulder, especially concerning the fans. Started with him getting booed in his first game as HC when he punted on 4th and short. (He really REALLY needs to get over that, btw).



So I gotta wonder if these unexpected hires for coach--Dupaix, Clark, and even Doman--rather than the fan favorites of Chad Lewis, Cahoon, and perhaps even Detmer, weren't somehow BECAUSE it could let Bronco be his own man. I wonder, in fact, if the favorable fan buzz around Cahoon et al actually hurt their chances. It would be sad if it did, but if Bronco has one fault it may be that his rugged individualism and chippy attitude prejudices him against "popular" choices--even if there's merit to them.



In some ways this isn't really a fair argument because it can't be shown to be right or wrong, but I do wonder.

Somehow Bronco choosing coaches with actual coaching experience over guys without it, is somehow to spite the fans.



Argument fail.

First question to Steve Clark, assuming he gets hired: Since you coached for Urban Meyer, will you refer to the school as BYU or TDS?

Florwood wrote:
First question to Steve Clark, assuming he gets hired: Since you coached for Urban Meyer, will you refer to the school as BYU or TDS?

second question, will you call it Utah or SNOT?

kitic77 wrote:
Somehow Bronco choosing coaches with actual coaching experience over guys without it, is somehow to spite the fans.



Argument fail.

Yeah, maybe. But I'm not saying it's to spite the fans, I'm just wondering if it's in spite of them. To the extent that coaching is more than coaching, you're probably right--this argument doesn't hold as well (though that still doesn't explain the initial Doman hire). But if he's hiring a position coach to actually coach a position, then I'm having a hard time seeing how someone who's done it for a sustained career at the highest level (Lewis, Cahoon, Detmer) and who's shown to be successful in instructing BYU players during the off-season (Lewis, Cahoon) is inferior to someone who hasn't done either.

I have been saying this ever since Bronco Fired Jaime Hill. Bronco wants coaches who have a certain mindset and intensity in their coaching style. I don't think he cares what the fans want (pointed out by the OP). If Cahoon, Detmer, Lewis don't exhibit the right intensity and mindset that Bronco is looking for in his coaches then they don't get the job. Doman is a bronco style coach, this new hire (Dupaix sp?) from what I read is a Bronco style of coach. I don't think Bronco looks at guys who were successful as pro's and thinks "I need this guy because he was a good player". Doman was hired as QB coach with absolutely no coaching experience because Bronco loved his energy and intensity as a person and wanted it taught down to his players.

I don't think Bronco has a beef with the fans much anymore. At least he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as you are suggesting he does. I can't tell you how many interviews I listened to this season where I heard Bronco go out of his way to thank the fans. In fact during the post game interview for the New Mexico game(I believe it was that game) Bronco interrupted Wrubell during Wrubells wrap up and said how grateful he was for the fans and thanked them for attending and being loud. Something like that was said after every game by Bronco.



It seems to me that the fans have a bigger chip on their shoulder towards Bronco then the other way around. Those fans are the ones who "really, REALLY need to get over it."

CannonCougar85 wrote:
I don't think Bronco has a beef with the fans much anymore. At least he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as you are suggesting he does. I can't tell you how many interviews I listened to this season where I heard Bronco go out of his way to thank the fans. In fact during the post game interview for the New Mexico game(I believe it was that game) Bronco interrupted Wrubell during Wrubells wrap up and said how grateful he was for the fans and thanked them for attending and being loud. Something like that was said after every game by Bronco.



It seems to me that the fans have a bigger chip on their shoulder towards Bronco then the other way around. Those fans are the ones who "really, REALLY need to get over it."

Yes, I noticed that too. But Bronco also went out of his way to call out the doubters this year--several times. And he often seems to preface what he says with something like "some people may not see that" or "some people might prefer X". (Sorry, way too busy/lazy to go grab sound bites.)



But in the end, I have to agree with you at least somewhat, Bronco has made some good progress in his fan relationship. I think the fans shouting "Bronco! Bronco!" and the team joining in at the end of the NM bowl, probably helped that relationship along as well. But I still wonder if he is at least unpersuaded if not outright put off by whatever comes out as fanpinions.

I think we as fans get too caught up in former great athletes and assume that their greatness on the field or mentoring other players will translate into coaching prowess. There is no guarantee that a former field genius is adept at transferring that knowledge to young men. No fan has ever interviewed a coaching applicant, we have no idea how well they perform in that aspect. The thing I get from the moves that Bronco has made is simply that the all time greats, were great at what they did but they are not ready to coach at a top tier NCAA program.

CrimsonCoug wrote:

I don't think Bronco has a beef with the fans much anymore. At least he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as you are suggesting he does. I can't tell you how many interviews I listened to this season where I heard Bronco go out of his way to thank the fans. In fact during the post game interview for the New Mexico game(I believe it was that game) Bronco interrupted Wrubell during Wrubells wrap up and said how grateful he was for the fans and thanked them for attending and being loud. Something like that was said after every game by Bronco.



It seems to me that the fans have a bigger chip on their shoulder towards Bronco then the other way around. Those fans are the ones who "really, REALLY need to get over it."

Yes, I noticed that too. But Bronco also went out of his way to call out the doubters this year--several times. And he often seems to preface what he says with something like "some people may not see that" or "some people might prefer X". (Sorry, way too busy/lazy to go grab sound bites.)



But in the end, I have to agree with you at least somewhat, Bronco has made some good progress in his fan relationship. I think the fans shouting "Bronco! Bronco!" and the team joining in at the end of the NM bowl, probably helped that relationship along as well. But I still wonder if he is at least unpersuaded if not outright put off by whatever comes out as fanpinions.

I would agree with the chip. It does show up from time to time.

I was at a dinner with the Legacy Club a few years ago and he basically called out the group in the context of none of the players or coaches are perfect and then said "but then, none of you are perfect either."

His stating the obvious really didnt offend me and in fact I kind of liked the push back on some of the most innane questions that come from, lets see wat did Bronco call them last year? Oh yeah, "uneducated". Again, this didnt offend me, I kind of thought it was funny (cant remember the context--maybe it was defending Max). But what it does exppose is a soft underbelly that he occassionally reacts and defends. What it tells me is that he has to get better at "not swinging at pitches in the dirt", by fans especially. I exclude media, they can kiss off. I hate most of the media anyway--they are pond scum searching for a quote to make them famous. Even Harmon's luster is down in my book, lately.

Sorry to go on. The point is, it shows a vulnerability that could decrease longevity as a coach. Stupid people say stupid crap. dont let it get to you Bronco.

CannonCougar85 wrote:
I don't think Bronco has a beef with the fans much anymore. At least he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as you are suggesting he does. I can't tell you how many interviews I listened to this season where I heard Bronco go out of his way to thank the fans. In fact during the post game interview for the New Mexico game(I believe it was that game) Bronco interrupted Wrubell during Wrubells wrap up and said how grateful he was for the fans and thanked them for attending and being loud. Something like that was said after every game by Bronco.



It seems to me that the fans have a bigger chip on their shoulder towards Bronco then the other way around. Those fans are the ones who "really, REALLY need to get over it."

Totally agree. Bronco went out of his way to acknowledge and thank the fans on every call-in show after he fired Hill and maybe even some times before that. Bronco learns.



I do think Bronco has a sweet spot for overachievers - being one himself. But it is a sweet spot - not a blind spot imho.



Experience matters. Great NFL players seldom end up as college coaches. Yes there are exceptions. Steve Spurrier comes to mind. I think the issue in most cases is not that they could not figure out how to coach, although some could not. Most of them can make far better money and enjoy a much more family friendly lifestyle doing something else as announcers, advertising spokesperson, motivational speakers, car dealership or restaurant owners, etc.



They certainly don't need a job - maybe making it hard to have that fire. For example, I believe Detmer could coach and will likely prove that he can coach at the high school where he coached last year - total ground up turnaround for a team that did not win any games. Whether he will ever have the passion to pay the life-style price to coach in college - TBD. His recent interview quotes did not make that seem likely in the short term.

CrimsonCoug wrote:
Let me first say that I appreciate Bronco. I also trust him.



However, not to sound too Marsish but Bronco has a pretty big chip on his shoulder, especially concerning the fans. Started with him getting booed in his first game as HC when he punted on 4th and short. (He really REALLY needs to get over that, btw).



So I gotta wonder if these unexpected hires for coach--Dupaix, Clark, and even Doman--rather than the fan favorites of Chad Lewis, Cahoon, and perhaps even Detmer, weren't somehow BECAUSE it could let Bronco be his own man. I wonder, in fact, if the favorable fan buzz around Cahoon et al actually hurt their chances. It would be sad if it did, but if Bronco has one fault it may be that his rugged individualism and chippy attitude prejudices him against "popular" choices--even if there's merit to them.



In some ways this isn't really a fair argument because it can't be shown to be right or wrong, but I do wonder.

So let me get this straight: You are accusing Bronco of hiring coaches that the fan's aren't necessarily excited about just to he can say he is his own man? That Cahoon might not be hired because too many fans wanted him? It has nothing to do with their merit, or maybe lack of coaching experience of some of those not hired.



(I learned a long time ago to re-state my arguments in the simplest terms, sometimes saying them out loud to see if they make sense. Sometimes they would sound really stupid. I think you might find this helpful with your original post.) :whistle:

I have only seen Bronco 1 time in person, up close, in my life. This does not count at games from the stands. The 1 times was after the FSU game. I was hanging around with my 2 brothers watching the players and coaches walk right out. Many players stopped and mingled. some headed right for the buses. Some coaches stopped and mingled, but most did not. Bronco was last coach to come out, I assume after all of his media obligations were over. I am sure he was not pleased after a loss. But the guy walked right from the stands to the bus and really did not acknowledge anyone, including many fans calling his name and yelling words of encouragement. It struck me as a bit odd, to be honest.



I do havea co-worker who ran into him at the Harley store in Lehi and said he seemed very pleasant. I think Bronco does put a bit of a shield up around fans though, but has been gradually lowering it. But I still he is not not 100% comfortable in public getting all the attention and notice. The guy is basically a Rock Star in Utah County, and I am not sure he is comfortable with that. But perhaps is a little moreso now than he was a few years ago.



All the same, I think he and BYU football fit together hand in glove.

CannonCougar85 wrote:
I don't think Bronco has a beef with the fans much anymore. At least he doesn't have as big of a chip on his shoulder as you are suggesting he does. I can't tell you how many interviews I listened to this season where I heard Bronco go out of his way to thank the fans. In fact during the post game interview for the New Mexico game(I believe it was that game) Bronco interrupted Wrubell during Wrubells wrap up and said how grateful he was for the fans and thanked them for attending and being loud. Something like that was said after every game by Bronco.



It seems to me that the fans have a bigger chip on their shoulder towards Bronco then the other way around. Those fans are the ones who "really, REALLY need to get over it."

Ditto. You beat me to it. Before this season I was in kind of the same position as the OP, but Bronco won me over, right after he was won over by our incredible fan base, showing up 30,000 strong in the rain to games being down 1-4. That is impressive as hell! I will fight to the death anyone that says we have a bad, or lackluster fan base.



On the flip side, we as individuals need to be more respectful of Bronco. 2 wards ago, I was in Dennis Pitta's ward his junior season (well, more like he was in mine... ;) I was there first!) and I went out of my way to not talk to him about the games or anything else.



Pretend that you are a mechanic (this is more for Bronco), and that everywhere you go (movies, dinner, CHURCH - you know, the places we go to get away from our jobs and actually relax) people are asking you what you think about the new transmission system in a car coming out, or - even worse - telling you that if you just used a 5/16th socket wrench instead of a 3/4 socket wrench he would get a better result changing sparkplugs... I'm sure that he gets tired of talking shop everywhere he goes, and Bronco is the type of person to push back a little on that. (And I like that!) I hate to make generalities, but here I go! We as a LDS community tend to think that we can be a little more intrusive in other people's lives and tell them what to do and I am sure that gets very annoying in a public spotlight (see: every dumb-A poster that gets on insisting that players go on missions because it's the right thing to do...blah blah blah)



<<<< STEPS OFF SOAP BOX >>>>



So I wasn't content w Bronco's treatment of his fans pre-2011 season, but I think that he has really seen us in a different light this season, and has stated such several times - going out of his way to do so. I appreciate his efforts, and look forward to as many more seasons of this as he can stand. Unless he allows something like qb2 to happen again. Then he is fair game... ;)

northerncougar wrote:

Let me first say that I appreciate Bronco. I also trust him.



However, not to sound too Marsish but Bronco has a pretty big chip on his shoulder, especially concerning the fans. Started with him getting booed in his first game as HC when he punted on 4th and short. (He really REALLY needs to get over that, btw).



So I gotta wonder if these unexpected hires for coach--Dupaix, Clark, and even Doman--rather than the fan favorites of Chad Lewis, Cahoon, and perhaps even Detmer, weren't somehow BECAUSE it could let Bronco be his own man. I wonder, in fact, if the favorable fan buzz around Cahoon et al actually hurt their chances. It would be sad if it did, but if Bronco has one fault it may be that his rugged individualism and chippy attitude prejudices him against "popular" choices--even if there's merit to them.



In some ways this isn't really a fair argument because it can't be shown to be right or wrong, but I do wonder.

So let me get this straight: You are accusing Bronco of hiring coaches that the fan's aren't necessarily excited about just to he can say he is his own man? That Cahoon might not be hired because too many fans wanted him? It has nothing to do with their merit, or maybe lack of coaching experience of some of those not hired.



(I learned a long time ago to re-state my arguments in the simplest terms, sometimes saying them out loud to see if they make sense. Sometimes they would sound really stupid. I think you might find this helpful with your original post.) :whistle:

Northern: Re-reading my original post at your behest, I can sort of see where you're coming from. I came off stronger than I actually feel.

However, I didn't say that there were no other considerations in a hire beyond what the public thinks, as you ascribe to me. Of course there are. In your mind I must have implied otherwise--sorry.

So here's what I am saying:

1: Bronco, though having warmed recently, has a past of being nonplussed by fans and their opinions. He's even seemed to go out of his way to declare that "fans want A; I'm doing B" (that's a correlative statement, not a causal one).

2: If 1. is causal then all things equal, Bronco may be put off by fan fawning over a particular candidate, which may hurt that candidate's chances.



I think that 1. is pretty well established, and 2, while unprovable, is plausible and would fit with the character established in 1. The problem, though is that it's not falsifiable, so, as I said in the beginning, it's not really a "fair" statement.



But it is an open question, in my opinion: Does being a fan favorite or getting some popular press hurt a candidate's chances?



Sorry, but given Bronco's past acrimonious streak towards fans and the press, that doesn't sound like a stupid question to me at all...though it may be an unfair one.

Its true that Bronco doesn't feed into the hype when it comes to players or coaches. It seems like he gets stubborn when there are fan favorites. For example not starting Heaps at the beginning of the season. Bronco knew all along that he was the more talented drop back BYU style QB, but he didn't start him because he doesn't think people should merit positions based on hype. Which is odd because hype is usually born out of talent.



I will say this, i was one of the foolish fans that was calling for Bronco to make Hill the Defensive Coordinator, a few seasons back. We all know how well that worked out. I believe we were coming off 2 straight years of beating TCU and then went to 3 years of getting schooled.

I should also reiterate that I really like Bronco, what he's doing with the program, and what he represents. I also recognize that it's his chippy persona which turned the defense around, so I'm not necessarily saying that his attitude towards fans is a fault. At its most benign, it's merely an attribute of his personality. I just hope that it doesn't cloud his judgment or keep him from letting things roll of his back that should--like my comments, for example.

I hope he's here for a long, long, LONG time.



Fully Invested.

Fans can afford to get emotional about player and coach choices and playing decisions. Bronco cannot. Coaches get fired when things do not work out - fans do not.



Bronco is selecting his own guys to run this football team. He won't be able to say someone made him pick person A or person B. He is not passing up better coaches because they were more popular. He is apparently, so far anyway, passing up inexperienced popular coaches for more experienced, less popular ones. But with some fans, the most popular player is the one not playing and the most popular coach is the popular player that has never coached. It is easy to put those inexperienced guys on a pedestal and assume they will work out nearly perfectly. The experienced guys, however, have already proven that they are not perfect and with the internet their imperfections are publicized widely.

I have worked in the engineering field for years and years and years and then some more and I have learnt by sad experience that sometimes the best engineers make the worst managers.

CrimsonCoug wrote:

CrimsonCoug wrote:
Let me first say that I appreciate Bronco. I also trust him.



However, not to sound too Marsish but Bronco has a pretty big chip on his shoulder, especially concerning the fans. Started with him getting booed in his first game as HC when he punted on 4th and short. (He really REALLY needs to get over that, btw).



So I gotta wonder if these unexpected hires for coach--Dupaix, Clark, and even Doman--rather than the fan favorites of Chad Lewis, Cahoon, and perhaps even Detmer, weren't somehow BECAUSE it could let Bronco be his own man. I wonder, in fact, if the favorable fan buzz around Cahoon et al actually hurt their chances. It would be sad if it did, but if Bronco has one fault it may be that his rugged individualism and chippy attitude prejudices him against "popular" choices--even if there's merit to them.



In some ways this isn't really a fair argument because it can't be shown to be right or wrong, but I do wonder.

So let me get this straight: You are accusing Bronco of hiring coaches that the fan's aren't necessarily excited about just to he can say he is his own man? That Cahoon might not be hired because too many fans wanted him? It has nothing to do with their merit, or maybe lack of coaching experience of some of those not hired.



(I learned a long time ago to re-state my arguments in the simplest terms, sometimes saying them out loud to see if they make sense. Sometimes they would sound really stupid. I think you might find this helpful with your original post.) :whistle:

Northern: Re-reading my original post at your behest, I can sort of see where you're coming from. I came off stronger than I actually feel.

However, I didn't say that there were no other considerations in a hire beyond what the public thinks, as you ascribe to me. Of course there are. In your mind I must have implied otherwise--sorry.

So here's what I am saying:

1: Bronco, though having warmed recently, has a past of being nonplussed by fans and their opinions. He's even seemed to go out of his way to declare that "fans want A; I'm doing B" (that's a correlative statement, not a causal one).

2: If 1. is causal then all things equal, Bronco may be put off by fan fawning over a particular candidate, which may hurt that candidate's chances.



I think that 1. is pretty well established, and 2, while unprovable, is plausible and would fit with the character established in 1. The problem, though is that it's not falsifiable, so, as I said in the beginning, it's not really a "fair" statement.



But it is an open question, in my opinion: Does being a fan favorite or getting some popular press hurt a candidate's chances?



Sorry, but given Bronco's past acrimonious streak towards fans and the press, that doesn't sound like a stupid question to me at all...though it may be an unfair one.

I believe I understand a little more of what you are inferring with Bronco, and I still challenge your original statement and your #1 above. I disagree completely with your statement "He's even seemed to go out of his way to declare that 'fans want A; I'm doing B'". He has said that fans aren't very smart sometimes (I agree with that completely) but I can't think of one time he has deliberately made a decision in opposition of what fans want, just because they want it.



Because of that your whole argument falls flat in my opinion. Please elaborate on your statement "fans want A; I'm doing B".