America /= US government

Well the mods are a little quick with the trigger and the rest of the sheep keep baaing so here is the breakdown of how the original thread went.



This just in poster BoiseBYU criticizes recent Chinese military developments and jvquarterback criticizes 60 years worth of US military developments. Jvquarterback gets labeled anti-american, a liar, etc, etc. The liar issues are easily resolved as jvquarterback has the truth on his side, but the unamerican label persists.



Well criticism of the government isn't unamerican, it is the same thing the founding fathers did so it is very American. But there are more state worshiping posters out there than I can keep up with as they keep posting from their government offices the world over.

tww wrote:

BoiseBYU wrote:
China's new weapon systems--stealth fighters and aircraft carrier-sinking missles--are not a threat to others, China's military leaders say.

This just in (well maybe the folks in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would say I'm a little late) ... US weapons systems have never and will never be a threat to anyone anywhere ... US military leaders say.

If you go carrying pictures of chairman mao you aren't going to make it with it anyone.



Not cool.

Yea, I got the Beatles reference. I deplore communists, but I also deplore any state or political philosophy that uses force against innocents, including the US.

BoiseBYU wrote:

Dude! What's funny is that Chinese military leaders this week said a transparently false thing--that no one need worry or pay attention to all of their military upgrades--I was making light of it. I have never seen US military leaders say that countries should not worry about our weapons. Rather, they say, I think, that if you mess with us we have the wherewithal to respond.

I'm sure the US military would say the same thing as the Chinese. No one need worry about them.



BTW in case you were wondering there are 1186 US military installations outside US territory and 0 Chinese military installations outside China.

BoiseBYU wrote:

LOL! A man of my generation!...BTW, you forgot "any how" (People who know the song will understand) Speaking of Mao, I just read a very comprehensive biography, Mao, The Untold Story. I used to think, ignorantly, that there are not evil people the likes of Hitler. I was wrong. Big Time. Mao was evil to his country, evil to his family, evil to his friends and 70 million people died as a result...

Unfortunately there were quite a few very wicked men at that time. Harry Truman was on the same order as Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Not only did he drop bombs on innocents he sent 20 million Russian whites in Poland and the Ukraine to the slaughter via the treaties signed at the end of the war.

Cougarbib2 wrote:
With a billion people, there must be 6-8 of them with speed. Maybe we need to go there and recruit defensive backs - outsourcing of sorts.



Just kidding]

My dad is in Shanghai until tomorrow. I'll ask him to take a look.

jvquarterback wrote:

jvquarterback wrote:

China's new weapon systems--stealth fighters and aircraft carrier-sinking missles--are not a threat to others, China's military leaders say.

This just in (well maybe the folks in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would say I'm a little late) ... US weapons systems have never and will never be a threat to anyone anywhere ... US military leaders say.

If you go carrying pictures of chairman mao you aren't going to make it with it anyone.



Not cool.

Yea, I got the Beatles reference. I deplore communists, but I also deplore any state or political philosophy that uses force against innocents, including the US.

BoiseBYU wrote:

Dude! What's funny is that Chinese military leaders this week said a transparently false thing--that no one need worry or pay attention to all of their military upgrades--I was making light of it. I have never seen US military leaders say that countries should not worry about our weapons. Rather, they say, I think, that if you mess with us we have the wherewithal to respond.

I'm sure the US military would say the same thing as the Chinese. No one need worry about them.



BTW in case you were wondering there are 1186 US military installations outside US territory and 0 Chinese military installations outside China.

BoiseBYU wrote:

LOL! A man of my generation!...BTW, you forgot "any how" (People who know the song will understand) Speaking of Mao, I just read a very comprehensive biography, Mao, The Untold Story. I used to think, ignorantly, that there are not evil people the likes of Hitler. I was wrong. Big Time. Mao was evil to his country, evil to his family, evil to his friends and 70 million people died as a result...

Unfortunately there were quite a few very wicked men at that time. Harry Truman was on the same order as Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Not only did he drop bombs on innocents he sent 20 million Russian whites in Poland and the Ukraine to the slaughter via the treaties signed at the end of the war.

Cougarbib2 wrote:
With a billion people, there must be 6-8 of them with speed. Maybe we need to go there and recruit defensive backs - outsourcing of sorts.



Just kidding]

My dad is in Shanghai until tomorrow. I'll ask him to take a look.

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn into into something else but these are all very old and tired arguments that were debunked long ago. Your statements fall under three categories totally false (as in China has no military installations outside of China), misleading (as in suggesting that U.S. military installations are to keep our allies in line), and twisted (as in equating Truman with Stalin, Hitler and Mao). Whoever your professors were, they sure did a job on you.

I'm with you, tww.



For those who have been been historically challenged about the real McCarthy story, I would encourage you to read Ann Coulter's Book, "Treason." It will blow your mind if you're able to respect how well she has foot-noted it. The Dems of the day did to Joe what they later did to demonize Ken Starr, Newt Gringrich, Karl Rove, and Dick Cheney, all of whom were far better Americans than their detractors were.



For those who have been abused in History class about love of country, I would suggest reading Romney's book, "No Apology: The Case for American Greatness."



No one is saying that the greatest nation in the history of the world has always been perfect. However, there is no intellectuality, only sheep-hood, to be found in the whole-sale swallowing of dogma for the demonization of America.

tww wrote:

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn into into something else but these are all very old and tired arguments that were debunked long ago. Your statements fall under three categories totally false (as in China has no military installations outside of China), misleading (as in suggesting that U.S. military installations are to keep our allies in line), and twisted (as in equating Truman with Stalin, Hitler and Mao). Whoever your professors were, they sure did a job on you.

1) China has no foreign military bases. They have recently threatened to build several around the Indian ocean, including Pakistan where the Chinese state has leased port space in Gwadar. If the Chinese were smart they would not build any installations, just as if the US were smart, they would dismantle foreign military installations.



2) I never suggested US military installations existed to keep allies in line. But if you think you should be more worried about a state with >1000 foreign military bases than a state that may have 1, by all means I'll agree.



3) Perhaps you should check your history. Truman, Churchill and the western allies signed treaties ceding eastern Europe to the Soviets. While I agree Stalin and the reds bear most of the culpability for the subsequent murder of Russian whites who had resettled in those countries, Truman and Churchill knew very well what was about to happen (the communists subsequently murdered 20M whites). The unconditional surrenders Truman required left eastern Europe and the far east to the mercy or the communists and led directly to additional unnecessary wars. Yes I put Truman in the same camp as Mao, Hitler and Stalin, if only for bombing innocents in Japan, let alone his other failings.



But you keep on with your worship of the state, setting up for yourself a false god. I don't care if that state is Nazi Germany, USSR, China or the US, patriotism that leads to using (non-retaliatory) force against others is a false god.

BOID wrote:

No one is saying that the greatest nation in the history of the world has always been perfect. However, there is no intellectuality, only sheep-hood, to be found in the whole-sale swallowing of dogma for the demonization of America.

America /= US government (just as China /= Chinese state). Anyone who thinks criticism of the state, let alone one politician, is equivalent to criticism of America lacks more than "intellectuality." As Dr Johnson said, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

I deplore long-winded zealots turning good comedy into useless political rhetoric.

This stuff has been split off from the humor thread in the Football section.



I should just delete it, but enough good rebuttal points were brought up to avoid that.



I will tell JV the same thing that I told tae dave, a person who sits down at a piano and plays only one note is doing themselves and everyone else around them a disservice and you'll likely end up in the same situation as him.

jvquarterback wrote:

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn into into something else but these are all very old and tired arguments that were debunked long ago. Your statements fall under three categories totally false (as in China has no military installations outside of China), misleading (as in suggesting that U.S. military installations are to keep our allies in line), and twisted (as in equating Truman with Stalin, Hitler and Mao). Whoever your professors were, they sure did a job on you.

1) China has no foreign military bases. They have recently threatened to build several around the Indian ocean, including Pakistan where the Chinese state has leased port space in Gwadar. If the Chinese were smart they would not build any installations, just as if the US were smart, they would dismantle foreign military installations.



2) I never suggested US military installations existed to keep allies in line. But if you think you should be more worried about a state with >1000 foreign military bases than a state that may have 1, by all means I'll agree.



3) Perhaps you should check your history. Truman, Churchill and the western allies signed treaties ceding eastern Europe to the Soviets. While I agree Stalin and the reds bear most of the culpability for the subsequent murder of Russian whites who had resettled in those countries, Truman and Churchill knew very well what was about to happen (the communists subsequently murdered 20M whites). The unconditional surrenders Truman required left eastern Europe and the far east to the mercy or the communists and led directly to additional unnecessary wars. Yes I put Truman in the same camp as Mao, Hitler and Stalin, if only for bombing innocents in Japan, let alone his other failings.



But you keep on with your worship of the state, setting up for yourself a false god. I don't care if that state is Nazi Germany, USSR, China or the US, patriotism that leads to using (non-retaliatory) force against others is a false god.

BOID wrote:

No one is saying that the greatest nation in the history of the world has always been perfect. However, there is no intellectuality, only sheep-hood, to be found in the whole-sale swallowing of dogma for the demonization of America.

America /= US government (just as China /= Chinese state). Anyone who thinks criticism of the state, let alone one politician, is equivalent to criticism of America lacks more than "intellectuality." As Dr Johnson said, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

WOW!



You need to find a new mentor.

I like your little buzz word non-retalitory force. So let evil go is what you are saying. Kill or enslave every other human on earth and we will stand by and watch. As long as you don't attack us we have no right nor obligation to intercede. Please don't ever run for public office. We have enough of the 60's mentality already in office.

And the comparason of Truman to Mao. Wow. Off the charts with that one. I honestly suggest you find a new history teacher or mentor.

So......we're going to rip on the US for not doing more to protect eastern Europe after world war II, and then we're going to rip them for having too many foreign military establishments? I guess we're supposed to be everywhere and nowhere, all at once?

hawkwing wrote:
This stuff has been split off from the humor thread in the Football section.



I should just delete it, but enough good rebuttal points were brought up to avoid that.



I will tell JV the same thing that I told tae dave, a person who sits down at a piano and plays only one note is doing themselves and everyone else around them a disservice and you'll likely end up in the same situation as him.

Thank you! And I will just say this: I am glad to be in a land that allows people to express views no matter how inane.

BoiseBYU wrote:
Thank you! And I will just say this: I am glad to be in a land that allows people to express views no matter how inane.

Yep, I couldn't help but laugh at the irony of seeing protesters outside the gate as I drove on base yesterday. :roll: :lol: :whistle:

snoscythe wrote:
So......we're going to rip on the US for not doing more to protect eastern Europe after world war II, and then we're going to rip them for having too many foreign military establishments? I guess we're supposed to be everywhere and nowhere, all at once?

What I am saying is that disarming Germany and Japan led to the rise of the communists in Eastern Europe and Asia. If the allies had not persisted requiring the "total surrender" of Germany and Japan, many lives could have been preserved without any foreign US military establishments.



But I suppose allowing others to take care of their own problems is a bit much for you. Can I offer you some food stamps?

hawkwing wrote:
I will tell JV the same thing that I told tae dave, a person who sits down at a piano and plays only one note is doing themselves and everyone else around them a disservice and you'll likely end up in the same situation as him.

I've played nice. Can the mods tell me why "ripping" on the government known as the People's Republic of China is ok but "ripping" on the government known as the United States of America is not? Just looking for a little consistency, where I've yet to find any.

jvquarterback wrote:

So......we're going to rip on the US for not doing more to protect eastern Europe after world war II, and then we're going to rip them for having too many foreign military establishments? I guess we're supposed to be everywhere and nowhere, all at once?

What I am saying is that disarming Germany and Japan led to the rise of the communists in Eastern Europe and Asia. If the allies had not persisted requiring the "total surrender" of Germany and Japan, many lives could have been preserved without any foreign US military establishments.



But I suppose allowing others to take care of their own problems is a bit much for you. Can I offer you some food stamps?

hawkwing wrote:
I will tell JV the same thing that I told tae dave, a person who sits down at a piano and plays only one note is doing themselves and everyone else around them a disservice and you'll likely end up in the same situation as him.

I've played nice. Can the mods tell me why "ripping" on the government known as the People's Republic of China is ok but "ripping" on the government known as the United States of America is not? Just looking for a little consistency, where I've yet to find any.

Dude! You have played monotone...Every post is how the NCAA is socialist and how the US is imperialist. I think it is ok to express those views in the Lounge under a proper thread, even if I disagree, but to hijack thread after thread to suit your predisposed views of the world is poor form. The China reference was a JOKE! Yuor response WAS NOT! It was more of your view of the world, which like I said you have a right to hold and express. Just don't do it by taking over a thread. BTW, if you have paid attention, you will note that we try and have some fun with all sorts of entites, including thoese here in the goold old US of A. For example, a few weeks earlier we made some fun of the military bowl and its charging exorbitant ticket prices and the Air Force's lost falcon mascot. Learn some perspective, timing, and placement and you'll be all right. Just stop hitting the same piano key again and again and again and again and again.............

[youtube]gNDcnxflSM0[/youtube]

BoiseBYU wrote:

snoscythe wrote:
So......we're going to rip on the US for not doing more to protect eastern Europe after world war II, and then we're going to rip them for having too many foreign military establishments? I guess we're supposed to be everywhere and nowhere, all at once?

What I am saying is that disarming Germany and Japan led to the rise of the communists in Eastern Europe and Asia. If the allies had not persisted requiring the "total surrender" of Germany and Japan, many lives could have been preserved without any foreign US military establishments.



But I suppose allowing others to take care of their own problems is a bit much for you. Can I offer you some food stamps?

hawkwing wrote:
I will tell JV the same thing that I told tae dave, a person who sits down at a piano and plays only one note is doing themselves and everyone else around them a disservice and you'll likely end up in the same situation as him.

I've played nice. Can the mods tell me why "ripping" on the government known as the People's Republic of China is ok but "ripping" on the government known as the United States of America is not? Just looking for a little consistency, where I've yet to find any.

Dude! You have played monotone...Every post is how the NCAA is socialist and how the US is imperialist. I think it is ok to express those views in the Lounge under a proper thread, even if I disagree, but to hijack thread after thread to suit your predisposed views of the world is poor form. The China reference was a JOKE! Yuor response WAS NOT! It was more of your view of the world, which like I said you have a right to hold and express. Just don't do it by taking over a thread. BTW, if you have paid attention, you will note that we try and have some fun with all sorts of entites, including thoese here in the goold old US of A. For example, a few weeks earlier we made some fun of the military bowl and its charging exorbitant ticket prices and the Air Force's lost falcon mascot. Learn some perspective, timing, and placement and you'll be all right. Just stop hitting the same piano key again and again and again and again and again.............

Dude! It wasn't me who took the thread serious. My first post was in jest too, or is it too soon to joke about atomic bombs landing on innocents?



I'll take the blame for defending my "view of the world" though. The whole post should have started in the lounge IMO but whatever.



And I love all the monotone references. Classy. And much easier than making an argument.

I am so lost on what everyone is talking about. So I'll just ask anyways and I have no idea which side this question is on.



I recently heard a month or two ago, that China actually bought a little island off the coast of California. Where? I'm not sure, but I heard that. I could find out more info of I wanted.



They way China is building right now... They'll try and take over the world. Russia isn't too far behind them.



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jvquarterback wrote:
What I am saying is that disarming Germany and Japan led to the rise of the communists in Eastern Europe and Asia. If the allies had not persisted requiring the "total surrender" of Germany and Japan, many lives could have been preserved without any foreign US military establishment.

Disarming Germany and Japan did not lead to the rise of Communism in Eastern Europe and Asia. Armed Germany's destabilizing eastern europe by invading and killing millions led to Communism filling the vacuum. Likewise, China did not become Communist until after Japan had weakened the Chinese national goverment/army during World War II and the Chang Kai Shek could not fight off Mao's revolutionaries. You're one step too late in your analysis, so you are missing the root cause. It was armed Germany and Japan that weakened the nations and led to the rise of Communism, not disarming them. Disarming them is what, perhaps, has kept us from World War III since Germany started the first two.



As for the Truman comparison, that is just wrong. I would invite you to read Helmet for My Pillow, or other biographies of those fighting in the Pacific before you judge Truman so harshly for dropping the bombs to save an estimated one million American lives, not to mention the rest of the Japanese military who would have been wiped out in Japan's defeat. You have to remember that the bombs gave the Japanese an excuse to surrender. Their pride would not allow them to do it, but once the bombs were dropped, they had the excuse they felt they needed not to have to fight to the last man.

I'm a little confused jv. Are you saying there wouldn have been less innocent lives lost if we hadn't have dropped the a bombs. Should we have just stopped fighting them? Should we have let Tojo and his military continue fighting? I would think that somewhere around 1948 there would have been about as many innocent lives lost as the 2 bombs accounted for. At the end of the war I understand that Japan was teaching kids to take off but didn't bother teaching them to land so they could dive their airplanes full of explosives into our ships. Were there any innocents abroad our ships?

Didn't realize this post was still going.



Yes nuk13, I'm saying there would have been fewer innocent lives lost had the bombs not been dropped. Cougarfan87 you are citing the tripe that Truman apologists have been successful in putting in US history books. There is no way 1MM US lives were spared by dropping the bombs and even if they were, that is still no excuse to drop bombs on innocents. There were 416K US deaths in the war total. In the Pacific theater it was more like 90-100K. In the event of an invasion, a more accurate estimate for total deaths would have been 150-200K total, no where near the 1M make believe number Truman apologists trot out. Regardless of the numbers bombing innocents is a wicked thing to do whether you are a US president or an Islamic jihadist. Japan was ready to surrender the war, it was the unconditionality of the surrender Truman wanted and why he held the entire civilian population of Japan hostage.



I do not dispute the a priori destabilizing effect of the Japanese and Germans with respect to the rise of communism (although Germany was a socialist country not much different than the USSR would become). But it is also a red herring. We are not arguing about the root cause, we are writing about the further loss of innocent life in the Ukraine and Manchuria which occurred as a result of Truman ceding eastern Europe to the USSR (estimated at 20 million) and Manchuria to China (estimated at 30 million) leaving those who had opposed the communists (and depended on an armed Germany and Japan for their defense) in eastern Europe and China at their mercy. Truman (and Churchill) knew this and was willing to purchase an end to the war at the cost of 50 million deaths in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Manchuria and the rest of Asia. I'm sorry to disabuse you of your heroes but that is the plain truth.

jvquarterback wrote:
I do not dispute the a priori destabilizing effect of the Japanese and Germans with respect to the rise of communism (although Germany was a socialist country not much different than the USSR would become). But it is also a red herring. We are not arguing about the root cause...

What you mean to say is that you don't make that argument now that you have been proven wrong. But you did argue about the root cause in your previous post when you claimed that taking out Nazi Germany and Japan led to the rise of communism, when in actuality, Nazi Germany and Japan invading other countries led to the rise of Communism (See my quote of you and then my response above). Seriously, when you figure out what your argument really is, perhaps it will be useful to engage in robust debate.

There is no way 1MM US lives were spared by dropping the bombs and even if they were, that is still no excuse to drop bombs on innocents.

Actually, both of your premises are flawed. The U.S. had not engaged in house to house fighting in the Pacific, like they would have if they had tried to clear Japan of every last soldier. They were fighting to the last man on the islands, and there is no reason to believe they would have done differently when defending their actual homeland. In fact, some Japanese military leaders staged a coup when they heard that the emperor was considering surrender. However, because of a blackout due to a U.S. flight over Tokyo, the coup failed. As the war wound down, Japanese propoganda declared that 100 million Japanese would sacrifice themselves in defense of the homeland (that is, every man, woman and child). Taking into consideration the culture of honor (many military leaders committed suicide after the surrender) and fanatacism (see kamikaze pilots), how can you seriously claim that it would not have cost 1 million American lives to defeat 100 million Japanese willing to fight to the last man (or even 25 million if only 1/4 was willing to keep fighting). For a better comparison of casualties in that kind of fighting, look at the casualties in Russia or Germany when it came down to the hand to hand fighting in cities to clear out everyone. You will notice that for both of those countries, where the fight was taken to their homeland and they did not surrender until crushed (Germany), the death toll is in in the several millions.



As for the "innocents", Hiroshima and Nagasaki contained war factories and supply points, which have always been considered fair targets in the law of warfare. It's not like the US chose to bomb residential communities for kicks. Those targets were chosen for their military value, because it would give the Japanese the excuse they needed to surrender, and because the U.S. did not want to destroy the rich cultural history of Japan. Otherwise, Truman would have dropped the bomb on Tokyo and caused much more loss of life.



Like I suggested, read Helmet For My Pillow or any of the other biographies of US Soldiers fighting in the Pacific theater and see if you still feel the same. It's pretty easy to second guess what any American lives are worth when you're not watching your friends get killed left and right.



I don't have anything more to say on the matter, so other than that, we can agree to disagree.

JVquarterback. I'm sure our views are pretty close as far as foreign policy goes.



But, when my country is engaged in war with a country like Japan that did not consider surrender an option, I feel that dropping the bomb was a necessity. It was war. It was terrible. If Japan had the engineering to make the bomb before the US did you can rest assured that the Japanese would have used it the first chance they got. The japanese people had been fed propoganda about Americans and nothing was going to stop them- that is, until an unknown power was unleashed on them. The bomb got the job done.



I may be in the minority, but I enjoy your opinion around here. Don't always agree, but it keeps things interesting. :)