We need to quit with this "well considering..." talk

I've seen it too many times this season.



"WELL CONSIDERING the fact BYU missed so many FT's and fouled so much today, I'll take the win..."



"DESPITE THE FACT we turned the ball over a lot and shot 22% from 3-point range, a slight victory doesn't look so bad..."



"THE FACT THAT we couldn't rebound and shot so poorly from the field and still almost won..."



I've seen these after almost every other game. Saint Mary's, USF, Hawaii, UCLA, etc. etc.



Doesn't the fact that we have so many REOCCURRING issues worry anyone?



Forget the fact that right now we have a good record. I'm thinking conference play and NCAA tourney here, and the facts are that as of now:



1) Our shooting is bad. 3-pointers aren't falling even for our "shooters" like Emery and Fredette



2) We still don't have an inside game. Davies has been pretty consistent on offense lately, but that's it



3) FT's continue to be a BIG problem for this team. FT's are CRITICAL... we miss FT's in the tourney the way we are now, we're done. Mark my words: FREE THROWS WILL BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINS OR LOSSES AGAINST UNLV, SDSU, AND UNM. This is something that the team continues to struggle with. If it's not fixed, then we're gonna have some big big problems.



4) We continue to struggle against big, athletic teams. To the point where it makes up for the talent gap. We have loads more talent than USF, but size and strength nearly made up the huge talent gap between our teams. Today for UCLA - it DID make up for the talent gap



Enough of this "it's a GOOD sign that we did ____________ so horribly and still ________"

NO! It's a very BAD sign that we keep having these issues that elite teams shouldn't struggle with.

These issues have been consistent and need to disappear before we even THINK about the possibility of winning the conference or winning games in March.

You've probably got a point. But I can't really do anything about any of that so staying optimistic is healthier than fretting about stuff I can't control. I've decided to just watch the games and enjoy BYU sports more. I was getting way to emotionally involved in the win/loss.

Agreed. I could understand all that talk if we had just played UCLA 20+ years ago with Wooden on the bench, but this is a UCLA team that had zero quality wins until tonight, but had losses to Virginia Commonwealth and Montana.



I don't find any consolation in playing a bad game with a shortened bench and losing to an average-at-best team like we did tonight. UCLA looked the better team for 35 out of 40 minutes, and this is not your father's UCLA. This is RPI-of-184-coming-into-the-game UCLA.



This is a bad loss. The one consolation is that later in the season people will just see "UCLA" and give us a pass because of what the Bruins have done in the past and not bother to look at where they are at this season.

and the reason UCLA loses to those crappy teams is because MOST NCAA level teams - no matter how horrible they may be - have BIGS. I'm talking guys who:



- Are tall and strong (not sort of tall and skinny like our "bigs")

- CAN FINISH. Davies, Anderson, CC, even Hartsock are all too SOFT. When other big guys get dished to and they have even a SLIGHTLY open path to the hoop, THEY SLAM IT DOWN. Our bigs either hesitate, juggle the ball, get it blocked/stolen, or go up with some weak layup



I'll preach it until I'm blue in the face. Until BYU has a better inside game, they will NEVER be elite. This year we don't have that. We will only win so as long as the matchups don't expose this weakness.



And don't even get me started on Anderson.

Well, until Mormons start having taller babies we're going to struggle.



Gary Trost should hopefully be having a son coming of age soon. We've seen great players' sons become good players (Danny Ainge, Marty Haws, etc.) but we need our bigs to start having kids come through.

Our shooting is horrible this year and UCLA took advantage of that. If we had a stronger inside presence than shooting droughts can be waded through by pounding it inside. We don't have a strong inside presence. I don't mean to take anything away from Davies (he's really stepped it up lately), but our bigs have a tough time finishing inside and are not forces to be reckoned with. But that wouldn't be so bad if our "shooters" at least made half their shots.



UCLA played us tight on the perimeter and we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. We tried to take it to the lane or push it inside and couldn't get it done. Unless the shooting warms up, we're looking at 3rd place in MWC.



Our lack of shooting really concerns me. At first I thought it was just the beginning of the season and our shooters needed to get warmed up. Jimmer is shooting about 10% less from behind the arc than he did last season, and don't even get me started on Emery.



Rogers is inconsistent. Abouo is too timid with shooting. KC is useless if more than 5 feet away from the basket. We have no shooters! And for a team full of guards, that's a really, really big deal.



Our abysmal free-throw shooting percentage couldn't more indicative of our shooting woes.

10-1 and as high as #2in the RPI is no joke. We laid an egg against UCLA with a short bench and UCLA friendly refs, but this team knows the secret to their winning has been a pristine turnover margin and yesterday it turned the tables on them.



We'll likely have only one (road) loss (against a very skilled and athletic UCLA team that happens to be terribly inconsistent) going into conference play. I'll take it and so would everyone on this board at the beginning of the season.



The truest test is to see how much we improve now that we'll be healthy and have 2 weeks of relative cupcakes. Can Collinsworth get back to 100%? Can Hartsock recover from the Az game? Will Davies figure out how not to foul in the 1st half? And will our outside shooters get it together?



Plenty of hoops left... one game doesn't make a season and thus far the season has been great.



Yep, UCLA sucked... move on... our most dominant performance against a very good Arizona team was only a week ago... short memory?



It wasn't many years ago that BYU hoops could look great at home and lay consistent eggs on the road versus the san franciscos of the world... we're light years from those days. It's 1 loss where we were competitive in spite of playing terrible.... let's see how we respond.

This is not a Top 10 basketball team. It would take some Luck and kind seeding for this to make sweet 16 level and we never get generous seeding. This is one of our best teams ever, but we rarely have NBA talent and when we do, it is usually NBA bench talent - not starter. Jimmer is legit. Top 10 teams always have a Jimmer or two on the roster.



I love BYU. I went to Provo High School and graduated from Wasatch High School and love seeing the best of WHS and PHS playing for BYU. I wish either of the Collinsworth brothers could shoot free throws. That and Anderson at the line will kill us un tournament games.



Teams will double and triple Jimmer until others step up consistently.



I love this team and it is usually fun to watch. If Jimmer didn't pick up that 4th foul, maybe we would have pulled it out. In person, all the John Wioden tributes being played during timeouts were a distraction. UCLA players played intensely and their shooters got hot.



We should have pounded it in and fouled out their fat boy - that would have made the difference.



They survived having 4 guys in foul trouble - we should have attacked and gotten some people to foul out.



But let's not kid ourself. We are not Duke or anything close. And when Jummer graduates - well I am not sure how good we will be next year.



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Cougarbib2 says..."But let's not kid ourself. We are not Duke or anything close. And when Jummer graduates - well I am not sure how good we will be next year." I say good enought to compete for our very first WCC conference championship and a bid in the "big dance"...nothing more and nothing less than we have been doing for the past 100 years :) I love BYU basketball and am excited for this season to play out. It will be a hotly contested MWC race and I will cheer the Cougars on until the final curtain closes on Jimmer and this year's team. Until that day, I will enjoy the ride to the fullest. Go Cougars!

I am absolutely amazed by the negative comments about a very good BYU team. Even in the loss to UCLA, they did a lot of things right. Offensively, I was impressed by the ability of Fredette and Davies to score inside.



3 things were key in the loss. Turnovers, free-throw shooting, and the fact that UCLA shot lights out. I think this was the first game this year where I felt like the other team out-played the Cougars on defense.



I wasn't expecting the Cougars to go undefeated (although there was always that hope). One loss to UCLA doesn't suddenly turn them into a "terrible" team. You guys sound like movie critics that never enjoy a movie because all they can do is look for something negative to say. Enjoy the ride! It's only a game, and I'm being thoroughly entertained. 8)

IowaCougar wrote:



3 things were key in the loss. Turnovers, free-throw shooting, and the fact that UCLA shot lights out. I think this was the first game this year where I felt like the other team out-played the Cougars on defense.

Why does everyone else keep saying UCLA shot lights out? They shot a worse percentage than we did, and our shooting wasn't even that good. On top of that - I believe our FT % even ended up being better than theirs.



They won b/c they have ACTUAL NCAA caliber bigs. We don't.



As Bib pointed out... teams will continue to double and triple team Jimmer. Who is Jimmer gonna dish to?

Emery? He doesn't even deserve the title "shooter." He's cold as ice 90% of the games BYU plays. He also either can't or simply refuses to drive.

C. Collinsworth? He has no shot. His driving skills have - up to this point - failed to show improvement.

K. Collinsworth? He also has no shot.

Hartsock. This is probably his best option, but even Noah rarely goes up strong.

Anerson? So he can juggle the ball? Get it stolen? Bounce out of bounds? So he can miss? So he can get fouled and miss FT's? Anderson should not be playing in this league. He doesn't belong.



It's pretty simple and it comes down to the things I mentioned. Namely:

- Lack of an inside presence (this one takes the cake)

- Bad FT shooting

- Bad shooting in general



And please, spare me the "negative" accusations. Check my post history - all I have said TIME AND TIME again is that we are a good team, but that we will NEVER be elite until we develop an inside game. We have a decent shot at getting by round 1 in the NCAA's, after that I think we have about as much of a shot of advancing this year as we did last.



It's a shame for Jimmer Fredette - he deserves better.

A lot of people would consider Kansas State to be an "elite" college basketball team this year...you know the kind that made a deep run in the NCAA tournament last year, a big time "inside presence", a lights-out pre-season all-american shooting guard in Jacob Pullen, etc. etc. etc.....yet somehow they got manhandled by Florida on Saturday....yes those same Florida Gators that laid an egg today at home against Jacksonville...some of you need to step back from the ledge...this is college basketball and this BYU team this year has competed hard every time it has stepped on the floor and has yet to "lay an egg"...I will take every player you mentioned above by name Italics, even with all of their "Italics Proclaimed Deficiencies" and will thoroughly enjoy the way they represent my Alma Mater. Love this team and the way they play the game, and I personally will enjoy all the highs and lows (and there will be many more "highs" than "lows") that come our way this season. Go Cougars!

Although I agree with some of what Italics says, fact of the matter is we have the team that we have so we have to make due with what we got. Concerns that I have about the program focus on the future:

1. Will we ever have a dominating big man? Araujo was a beast in college but fizzled out in the much more competitive NBA, Plaistaid did his thing in college but again never did well in the NBA. Bradley made his millions being lanky and blocking shots while Michael Smith and Fred Roberts played so long ago the students in the student section do not know a thing about them (except me). Cosic could have been huge in the NBA...Chris Miles, well, he is doing what he did here in the Czech Republic which is a whole lot of nothing (see http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=CZE&PlayerID=72115&AmNotSure=1#Player" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Stats). Until we get a big man who isn't afraid to take the ball strong to the hole, I don't ever see BYU's program progressing. As a side note, I watched a high school game on ESPN where Jabari Parker was playing. WE NEED HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. What will we do when Jimmer leaves? Never before has BYU had a player of his caliber, except maybe Danny Ainge. The PG position is vital to the success of any team, even more so than having a solid big man. Who will our next PG be? DeMarcus Harrison will hopefully fill Jackson Emery's shoes, but will Martineau really be our only PG? We need to visit some JUCOs.

3. Will Abouo ever get more PT? He is our best defender, one of our more athletic rebounders, has 3 point range but can also have highlight dunks....and Coach Rose doesn't play him much. He needs to play more starting now in order for our team to continue successfully.

Those are the 3 issues I believe BYU needs to address sooner than later.

AZman wrote:

3. Will Abouo ever get more PT? He is our best defender, one of our more athletic rebounders, has 3 point range but can also have highlight dunks....and Coach Rose doesn't play him much. He needs to play more starting now in order for our team to continue successfully.

This is another issue. His height may hurt him, but at this point, we need Abouo as a starter. He's more clutch with his shots than C. Collinsworth, is stronger than him, and defends/rebounds better than him. Not sure what the deal is with Rose hardly playing him.

AZman wrote:
Although I agree with some of what Italics says, fact of the matter is we have the team that we have so we have to make due with what we got. Concerns that I have about the program focus on the future:

1. Will we ever have a dominating big man? Araujo was a beast in college but fizzled out in the much more competitive NBA, Plaistaid did his thing in college but again never did well in the NBA. Bradley made his millions being lanky and blocking shots while Michael Smith and Fred Roberts played so long ago the students in the student section do not know a thing about them (except me). Cosic could have been huge in the NBA...Chris Miles, well, he is doing what he did here in the Czech Republic which is a whole lot of nothing (see http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=CZE&PlayerID=72115&AmNotSure=1#Player" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Stats). Until we get a big man who isn't afraid to take the ball strong to the hole, I don't ever see BYU's program progressing. As a side note, I watched a high school game on ESPN where Jabari Parker was playing. WE NEED HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. What will we do when Jimmer leaves? Never before has BYU had a player of his caliber, except maybe Danny Ainge. The PG position is vital to the success of any team, even more so than having a solid big man. Who will our next PG be? DeMarcus Harrison will hopefully fill Jackson Emery's shoes, but will Martineau really be our only PG? We need to visit some JUCOs.

3. Will Abouo ever get more PT? He is our best defender, one of our more athletic rebounders, has 3 point range but can also have highlight dunks....and Coach Rose doesn't play him much. He needs to play more starting now in order for our team to continue successfully.

Those are the 3 issues I believe BYU needs to address sooner than later.

Abouo should be starting ahead of KC.



Abouo plays better defense, has a better shot, grabs more boards and shoots better from the line. Rose, for some reason, has a fascination with KC and I'm sure it's apparent to Abouo, which doesn't help the situation any. Should Rose change his tune and show some faith in his Junior - who is a much better athlete - I think we'd see a more dominant Abouo.



Right now, though, Abouo plays conservative and under the fear that the moment he makes a mistake or misses a shot he'll be yanked from the game. Never mind Jimmer is coughing up the ball...

I think Abouo might need more playing time. He's not tentative to shoot the ball and KC is right now. KC passes up open shots all the time and to a certain extent it's hurting the offense because teams don't have to respect his outside shot so they can sag off him when he's on the perimeter. Abouo isn't afraid to shoot from the outside, and he'll drive by you as well as KC can.

What I'd like to figure out with Abouo is his ability to take it to the hoop and miss. I think he shoots a better percentage from 3 than from lay-up range. Defensively, he's a stud, but for some reason he hasn't shown the ability to finish inside.

IowaCougar wrote:
What I'd like to figure out with Abouo is his ability to take it to the hoop and miss. I think he shoots a better percentage from 3 than from lay-up range. Defensively, he's a stud, but for some reason he hasn't shown the ability to finish inside.

I think he hopes to get fouled and in the process of busting his way to line loses track of finishing.

I can hear it now...



"despite the fact that we shot so poorly tonight and struggled against the zone, I'll take the away victory..."



This team has some major issues to work on, folks.

Post by Greg Wrubell says it all:

Last year, BYU had 6 players with 10+ mpg and 25+ 3pfga; all shot 37%-44% 3p. This year, 3 plyrs avg 10+ mpg w /10+ 3pfga; all 35% or worse 3p.