How good is this team?

So we're undefeated. We're ranked #21 in the country. We've got top 25 stats in all kinds of categories except FG%, which is rising. We're playing a lot of young players and have a pre-season all-american. We're 8-0 against decent( not great) competition including some tough road wins.



How good are we?



I think Arizona and UCLA (which recently lost to #4 Kansas by a single point) provide some real tests coming up

This has been my thought on the team thus far: Despite a pretty wide average margin of victory, the only game I felt pretty secure in while watching was the MVSU game. I think the reason I have felt that way is the offense has kind of struggled to find their rhythm. The defense has been nails so far but it's easy to overlook that aspect when the offense is struggling to find their shot. I think for that reason the games have just felt a lot tighter than they actually were.



I would say that right now we are ranked right where we should be. We haven't knocked off anybody we shouldn't have but we haven't lost to anybody we shouldn't have either. Teams are really starting to key in on Jimmer though and so if we are going to keep from losing this year, the other guys have really got to step up and make teams play Jimmer honest. The last few games, I think that has really started to happen. Davies and Collinsworth have really started to step up. Hopefully we get Chris Collinsworth back soon who should help our rebounding and inside game immensely. And Noah is pretty consistent every night. But I would really like to see Abouo slash more to the hoop though instead of settling for the outside shots, which just aren't dropping. He is so quick and athletic. I know he has missed on some dunks and easy layups at the rim but he's just got to keep attacking. He'll never find his shot if he doesn't start from the inside out.



Definitely the next few games will be the real test and key to our season. Arizona, UCLA and UTEP should really put us in a good positions with the NCAA if we can get through those games without any losses. It's almost a given that we'll drop some in conference games but I just don't think the NCAA looks as strongly at those as they do the non-con ones. If we can just split the series with UNLV and SDSU, and go undefeated in the non-con, we'll be in great position to get a high seed come March. And we will have proven to be a very good and consistent team.

BYU will toughen up. I fully expect a new approach to the unlv tourney and finally winning down there.

gmj81 wrote:
This has been my thought on the team thus far: Despite a pretty wide average margin of victory, the only game I felt pretty secure in while watching was the MVSU game. I think the reason I have felt that way is the offense has kind of struggled to find their rhythm. The defense has been nails so far but it's easy to overlook that aspect when the offense is struggling to find their shot. I think for that reason the games have just felt a lot tighter than they actually were.

are you saying we should fire our offensive coordinator and our conditioning coach?

CougarClaw wrote:

This has been my thought on the team thus far: Despite a pretty wide average margin of victory, the only game I felt pretty secure in while watching was the MVSU game. I think the reason I have felt that way is the offense has kind of struggled to find their rhythm. The defense has been nails so far but it's easy to overlook that aspect when the offense is struggling to find their shot. I think for that reason the games have just felt a lot tighter than they actually were.

are you saying we should fire our offensive coordinator and our conditioning coach?

Why the conditioning coach? Our teams have consistently been better prepared for fast tempo games, and have had superior toughness than their competition for the last several years.

The pat answer is we don't know yet.



We have more athletic strong wing players (Emery, Abouo and K. Collinsworth) than I can ever remember. So we shouldn't be beaten by great perimeter play.



We do have a closer and offensive focus in Jimmer. But we don't really have a second option. Davies could become this. Or Kyle Collinsworth might.



We aren't very deep or big on the frontline. This should be exploited by the better teams we play.



UCLA has a very big 6'10 player with some ability. We will need Davies and Chris Collinsworth healthy and confident to handle him.



Arizona has a great power forward in Williams.



Finally the perplexing thing is why are missing so many shots that would normally go down?

We're probably right where we should be. Our guards are as good as any in the country, we have some good athletes and shooters at the wing and we have decent but not great bigs.



Where we excell is turnover margin right now. we're #1 in the country and that stat alone is why we're undefeated and why we'll be competitive in any game we play.



I don't think this team has a chance to be great. Our bigs will never be great and our wings aren't as good as Haws/JT were last year. However, this team will go to the dance (something BYU fans take for granted every year... it's not an easy thing to do) and if we get a little luck, maybe we could make the sweet 16.



The key is that this team is a blast to watch and it's hard not to love the effort that guys make. We just don't have any beef underneath that would scare other top 25 opponents and as good as the Collinsworths are in transition, you cant' hide them at the end of games when they're shooting sub .400 from the line.



We've learned a lot about the toughness of this team (something that a few years ago BYU teams struggled with) so far this season. We're going to learn a lot more about their skill level the next 2 weeks.



Win or lose this year, it's going to be fun and I'm okay with that.

I'm not so sure about our wings this season not being as good as Haws and JT. Our wings this season are different. Certainly JT and Haws were good scorers, but our current wings contribute in areas our previous wings didn't and for the most part are the key reason we are number 1 in the nation in turnover margin.



JT's defense was horrible. He played with his hands, couldn't stay in front of his man and got beat routinely down low. Abouo is quick enough to stay in front of guards and strong enough to put a body against a forward. JT averaged 4.4 boards a game last season. Abouo is currently averaging 6 boards a game and is the team's leading rebounder. Regardless of how "great" a rebounder JT was (4.4/game isn't very noteworthy in my eyes) our team stunk at boards last season. We're a much, much better rebounding team this season than last. Once the shooting starts clicking, combined with the boards and turn over margin, we'll be pretty hard to beat.



I will not argue Haws' mid-range shot will be missed. I was, though, never overtly impressed with Haws' defense. Granted I don't think he was horrible on defense, but he didn't impress me. K Collinsworth seems more disruptive than Haws, plus I like KC's ability to get to the paint.



Defense wins championships. Better defense and better rebounding translates into more points in transition for us, which is our cup of tea. I honestly think if this years' team played last years' team, we'd spank them.



Our post play is also better this season. Davies is improved and if he can keep moving in the same direction we'll be quite the force towards the end of the season. Miles was none existent on offense and averaged only 3.4 rebounds a game! CC and Noah add additional strength we didn't have last season.

Gunk wrote:
I'm not so sure about our wings this season not being as good as Haws and JT. Our wings this season are different. Certainly JT and Haws were good scorers, but our current wings contribute in areas our previous wings didn't and for the most part are the key reason we are number 1 in the nation in turnover margin.



JT's defense was horrible. He played with his hands, couldn't stay in front of his man and got beat routinely down low. Abouo is quick enough to stay in front of guards and strong enough to put a body against a forward. JT averaged 4.4 boards a game last season. Abouo is currently averaging 6 boards a game and is the team's leading rebounder. Regardless of how "great" a rebounder JT was (4.4/game isn't very noteworthy in my eyes) our team stunk at boards last season. We're a much, much better rebounding team this season than last. Once the shooting starts clicking, combined with the boards and turn over margin, we'll be pretty hard to beat.



I will not argue Haws' mid-range shot will be missed. I was, though, never overtly impressed with Haws' defense. Granted I don't think he was horrible on defense, but he didn't impress me. K Collinsworth seems more disruptive than Haws, plus I like KC's ability to get to the paint.



Defense wins championships. Better defense and better rebounding translates into more points in transition for us, which is our cup of tea. I honestly think if this years' team played last years' team, we'd spank them.



Our post play is also better this season. Davies is improved and if he can keep moving in the same direction we'll be quite the force towards the end of the season. Miles was none existent on offense and averaged only 3.4 rebounds a game! CC and Noah add additional strength we didn't have last season.

I agree completely. The problem with having Haws and JT is they are both soft and only shoot from outside. I'll take a tougher, better defender who goes to the rim anyday over a guy who only shoots outside. The reason we lose tough games is because we haven't gotten to the line because we're not aggressive on offense. In every big game recently you'll see that our opponent always gets in the bonus before we do in the 2nd half w/o exception. This team has a chance to reverse that trend by going hard to the rack on O and continuing to play shut down D and rebounding better than they have in years. This team's makeup will give us the best chance we have had in a while to go deep in March.

Haws and JT were soft on defense. JT was absolutely useless as a 4. He was a 2 trapped in a 4's body... a 2 that can't play defense or drive to the hoop.

JT did two things: Jack up 3's and rebound. He only did one of them well last year (rebound).



Abouo and CC play like true forwards, and that's what we've been lacking in recent years. The shots will start falling. Rogers getting his shot down will be HUGE for the team this year. Jimmer and Emery can shoot. Hartsock has a good mid-range jumper. Abouo can knock them down as well. The rest of the guys know how to slash to the hoop. Our offense is well balanced - just not consistent yet.



^ This, and the fact that we are playing better defense, gives me hope that we can win a Round 1 game again. I only see us getting to the Sweet 16 if we get a very favorable matchup in round 2.



The fact of the matter is, we still have no inside game. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Davies is the Luke Ashworth of our basketball team... he can put up big numbers against scrub teams, but is yet to prove that he can do anything great when it matters.

Italics wrote:
Abouo can knock them down as well.

Still waiting on this one, but I hope you're right. Abouo needs a break-out night.

Italics wrote:
Davies is the Luke Ashworth of our basketball team... he can put up big numbers against scrub teams, but is yet to prove that he can do anything great when it matters.

Ashworth had one good game the entire year. Davies already put up big numbers in one game which means I hope Davies is not our Ashworth. Here's to continual improvement!

CougarClaw wrote:

Abouo can knock them down as well.

Still waiting on this one, but I hope you're right. Abouo needs a break-out night.

Italics wrote:
Davies is the Luke Ashworth of our basketball team... he can put up big numbers against scrub teams, but is yet to prove that he can do anything great when it matters.

Ashworth had one good game the entire year. Davies already put up big numbers in one game which means I hope Davies is not our Ashworth. Here's to continual improvement!

Well Davies at least gives a crap and gives an effort... I guess that's more than Ashworth could say the vast majority of this season.

Italics wrote:

Italics wrote:
Abouo can knock them down as well.

Still waiting on this one, but I hope you're right. Abouo needs a break-out night.

Italics wrote:
Davies is the Luke Ashworth of our basketball team... he can put up big numbers against scrub teams, but is yet to prove that he can do anything great when it matters.

Ashworth had one good game the entire year. Davies already put up big numbers in one game which means I hope Davies is not our Ashworth. Here's to continual improvement!

Well Davies at least gives a crap and gives an effort... I guess that's more than Ashworth could say the vast majority of this season.

Noah Hartsock had 14 points and 13 rebounds and Brandon Davies added 12 points for the Cougars (9-0).

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=303420261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Well, our bigs are headed in the right direction. That's two games in a row where we've picked up 20+ points from our bigs.

Gunk wrote:

CougarClaw wrote:

Abouo can knock them down as well.

Still waiting on this one, but I hope you're right. Abouo needs a break-out night.

Italics wrote:
Davies is the Luke Ashworth of our basketball team... he can put up big numbers against scrub teams, but is yet to prove that he can do anything great when it matters.

Ashworth had one good game the entire year. Davies already put up big numbers in one game which means I hope Davies is not our Ashworth. Here's to continual improvement!

Well Davies at least gives a crap and gives an effort... I guess that's more than Ashworth could say the vast majority of this season.

Noah Hartsock had 14 points and 13 rebounds and Brandon Davies added 12 points for the Cougars (9-0).

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=303420261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Well, our bigs are headed in the right direction. That's two games in a row where we've picked up 20+ points from our bigs.

Well said. This is a big deal...when our bigs have the ball near the basket they seem to be scoring with relative ease these days. I'd be interested to see our % of points scored in the paint as compared to the last 2 seasons--it has to be much higher. Plus we are rebounding so much better this year, which is another huge Achilles heel for us in big games. I like where this is all heading...

Sweet 16 at best. And need a good draw to get there. We are going to struggle to win at UNLV(as always), SDSU and UNM, and SDSU might have us at home this year. I think we finish 3rd in the MWC, 2nd at best. We still are weak in the paint, especially vs. athletic teams.

mizzoucoug wrote:
Well said. This is a big deal...when our bigs have the ball near the basket they seem to be scoring with relative ease these days. I'd be interested to see our % of points scored in the paint as compared to the last 2 seasons--it has to be much higher. Plus we are rebounding so much better this year, which is another huge Achilles heel for us in big games. I like where this is all heading...

While I don't have that kind of percentage, I can give you a points available percentage and rebounds per 40 minutes comparing our post players from last year and this year.



PAP & Rebs/40 2009-2010:

Hartsock .585 & 8.4

Miles .549 & 8.8

Davies .545 & 8.4

Anderson .523 & 10.6

All Posts .559 & 10.8



PAP & Rebs/40 2010-2011:

Davies .575 & 10.5

Hartsock .552 & 8.4

C. Collinsworth .490 & 14.0

Anderson .308 & 9.1

All posts .523 & 11.9

kitic77 wrote:

Well said. This is a big deal...when our bigs have the ball near the basket they seem to be scoring with relative ease these days. I'd be interested to see our % of points scored in the paint as compared to the last 2 seasons--it has to be much higher. Plus we are rebounding so much better this year, which is another huge Achilles heel for us in big games. I like where this is all heading...

While I don't have that kind of percentage, I can give you a points available percentage and rebounds per 40 minutes comparing our post players from last year and this year.



PAP & Rebs/40 2009-2010:

Hartsock .585 & 8.4

Miles .549 & 8.8

Davies .545 & 8.4

Anderson .523 & 10.6

All Posts .559 & 10.8



PAP & Rebs/40 2010-2011:

Davies .575 & 10.5

Hartsock .552 & 8.4

C. Collinsworth .490 & 14.0

Anderson .308 & 9.1

All posts .523 & 11.9

With a shooting percentage as bad as BYU's has been, you can only win games with rebounding and forcing turnovers. Something BYU has done pretty well this year.

I've watched the team several times this year and I think they are probably a top 20 team for sure but it is sometimes very difficult to watch our half court offense. I'd like to see the team run n' gun a bit more to eliminate some of these stale half court offensive sets. Essentially what happens is Jimmer dribbles uselessly to one side and passes to Emery, Emery can't create off the dribble and passes back to Jimmer who tries to drive, Jimmer is doubled or tripled and passes back to Emery, emery back to Jimmer who tries to drive but is doubled and passes back to Emery. Emery shot fakes a three pointer and passes back to Jimmer, Jimmer drives and makes a circus lay up. This type of offense is not sustainable. It is like watching the "fighting lebron james's" when James was with the Cavs. I think the offense needs to touch Davies/Hartsock's hands about 10 more times a game to make us a better team. Even when there is no double team on our big guys, our wings simply do not pass the ball down there and I think that has to change.



Overall, it's fun watching Jimmer but you won't win a first round tournament game shooting like we are from the outside which means we need to get some higher percentage shots from Davies and Hartsock.

Lawboy wrote:
Sweet 16 at best. And need a good draw to get there. We are going to struggle to win at UNLV(as always), SDSU and UNM, and SDSU might have us at home this year. I think we finish 3rd in the MWC, 2nd at best. We still are weak in the paint, especially vs. athletic teams.

What you said may come off as being harsh... but it's probably true. At this point in the season, I see us getting by round 1 again and then losing in round 2. Making it to the Sweet 16 is possible if we get favorable match-ups (and when was the last time that happened to us in the tourney?)



Davies and Hartsock have been playing well as of late, but I still just don't think they stack up with the bigs on most other Top 25 teams. Also - Emery's inability to drive to the hoop hurts us more than I think most people realize. His defense is great, but he is way too one-dimensional on offense.