Archived Topic

Okay, so what things ARE overnight fixes?

by GolfDiveNCougs · 11/27/2010

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GolfDiveNCougs
I guess I mean, what things can coaching adjustments MASK, if not fix, in the next 21 hours? I'd almost have to believe that the free throw percentage, by the end of the game, was as much mental as anything. True, we're not shooting very well this year from the line, but that game was just redonkulous. Don't know if a different mindset would help there, likely would, but I also don't know if there's much that can be done on that front before tipoff tomorrow.



It sure seems like the team simply doesn't have an identity this year. I'm actually scared that the rest of the team have resigned themselves to be the supporting cast of a superstar this year. Nothing sends a team game to the crapper faster. Sure, Jimmer was there last year, but for some reason it felt different. Can't describe it. Maybe it was that we had a pig-headed JT to offset it, maybe our ability to be more run-n-gun diffused some of the "Jimmer-pressure," either on him by the team, or on the team because of his presence. I can't help but wonder if our inability to really break into last year's frenetic pace early isn't making the team timid. We sure seem to have defaulted to half court sets in which the guys watch Jimmer dance for half the shotclock, then try to patch something together in the final 10 or so. I didn't think JT and Haws really did that much more for us than what we've got now, but maybe they did. KC isn't a Haws-type shooter, he's a slasher, but again, that's not as effective in an open-court style as a kid who can knock down any shot off a dribble or fastbreak kickout. And it's a foregone conclusion that our ferris-wheel-o-the-four-spot isn't as mobile as JT, to say nothing about shooting. Who knows. One thought I had regarding Charles, is that he may be burned out. Hear me out on this one. I realize that most of our guys had intense summer schedules, but I'd be willing to bet that playing in the World Championships for one's country would be a bit more physically and emotionally draining than your average D-1 ball player's summer. That could explain the lack of intensity, the defensive blunders, the freethrows (at least today). Interestingly, iirc, Charles was mostly a 2 on his national team, and that seems to be the role he's defaulting to this year more than the power-3 we're used to getting out of him. He's shooting (and making) a decent amount of 3's. Maybe that's just another symptom of burnout, defaulting to what he WAS doing then, rather than transitioning to be the player his team needs him to be now. I dunno.

Maybe we have to figure out how to be consistent in the half court in order to open up the fastbreak (I have to say, USF's coach did a GREAT job of getting his team back on defense. I noticed that a LOT. If they even sniffed a fastbreak, 5 dudes in green were TEARING back down the court). Still, FOUR fastbreak points??? I thought this was BYU basketball.



So what CAN we fix by tomorrow? We've already got one strike against us, a post-player down, and tired out from an emotional double overtime. Pace? Court spacing? Enya on the ipod before the game??? Throw me a bone to help give me the faith that we'll see a team we recognize tomorrow!
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mizzoucoug
The team made the clutch plays and failed repeatedly when they could've put the game away. As far as I'm concerned that is BYU basketball over the last 7 years in every big game. There have been a lot of wins so nobody can complain there I guess. BUT...



I am absolutely fed up with the inability to both recruit and coach up big men. It is pathetic. The only player I can think of in the last 7 years who improved his back to the basket game was Keena--and that was drastic! Why is he the exception? What was he doing to become not only good but dominant his senior year? Where are the coaches working with Davies and Hartsock to go up strong and finish with authority? Omg, I will coach them low-post moves for free if they like. I'm only 6' but i usually play down low and have a whole host of moves I developed because most people my size aren't used to guarding that kind of game.



It's sickening to watch any other team on TV have big guys who finish strong and score when in the paint with so little effort. I daresay most D-1 schools have 1 or 2 forwards/centers that would easily start at the Y but would, of course, never get any touches and would, therefore, transfer away. It's just frustrating because if we had one decent post player we'd be a top 10 team easily. This team is in trouble.
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Mars
GolfDiveNCougs wrote:
Maybe we have to figure out how to be consistent in the half court in order to open up the fastbreak (I have to say, USF's coach did a GREAT job of getting his team back on defense. I noticed that a LOT. If they even sniffed a fastbreak, 5 dudes in green were TEARING back down the court). Still, FOUR fastbreak points??? I thought this was BYU basketball.

0 fastbreak points in the first half against Missouri Valley.
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Cougs_Rule
Its not hard to learn two defenses for two offensive sets: BYU runs the fastbreak offensive set (TIC) and then one other set that is more like an afterthought: JImmer ball. So, defensively, there are two mindsets: back on D and dbl jimmer. Not rocket science.

Oh, and one other defensive strategy emerging: send 'em to the line, they only make 50% of their charity stripes.
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craigoscarson
1. St. Marys strengths are completely different than USFs; BYU played as big and athletic a team as they'll see all year in USF... what USF isn't is well coached, disciplined, and normally they aren't good shooters



2. St. Marys is the polar opposite. They're not particularly athletic, they're certainly not big, BUT they're well coached, disciplined, and normally they are good shooters.



St. Marys is a much better matchup for us; however we still lose if we continue to miss shots and free throws like yesterday.



It depends on what team shows up today; the one that couldn't miss coming out against Chicago State or the one that came out the last 2 games and couldn't hit the side of a barn in the 1st 10 minutes of each game. We can't afford a slow start against such a skilled and disciplined team as SMC.



The winner is playing for a 19-20 ranking in all polls next week so I hope the Cougs are up to the task.
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SpiffCoug
Shooting is a fixable. We've shot poorly the last few games - actually most of the season - so we could be in for a good game. But given all the minutes guys played yesterday, that's not good news for a jump shooting team.
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Italics
well I've been saying it for a long time (as in years) - and some people haven't been happy with me for it - but I'll say it again, when more people are finally likely to agree with me: BYU will NEVER be an elite team in basketball until they develop an inside game.



Listen, it bothers me MORE than it makes me happy to see our PG and SG scoring virtually all of our points in a game/half. It sets us up so that when our guys are having a poor shooting night, winning becomes next to impossible. We were lucky to be playing USF last night. We are also lucky that our guys play pretty good defense this year - any decent team SHOULD have been able to destroy us last night.



I'm as clueless as the next person as to why we don't get good bigs, or how we are going to get them in the future. All I know is that BYU can't expect to get past round 2 in the NCAA tourney with no big, physical 4's and 5's. Hartsock gets blocked more than any 4/5 I've ever seen in my life, Davies is slow, predictable, and weak - and Andersen... he's Andersen.



No way we see a tourney run this year if our inside game doesn't improve quickly. As good as our guard play is, it's not going to win us every single game.
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BroncoBot
Italics wrote:
well I've been saying it for a long time (as in years) - and some people haven't been happy with me for it - but I'll say it again, when more people are finally likely to agree with me: BYU will NEVER be an elite team in basketball until they develop an inside game.



Listen, it bothers me MORE than it makes me happy to see our PG and SG scoring virtually all of our points in a game/half. It sets us up so that when our guys are having a poor shooting night, winning becomes next to impossible. We were lucky to be playing USF last night. We are also lucky that our guys play pretty good defense this year - any decent team SHOULD have been able to destroy us last night.



I'm as clueless as the next person as to why we don't get good bigs, or how we are going to get them in the future. All I know is that BYU can't expect to get past round 2 in the NCAA tourney with no big, physical 4's and 5's. Hartsock gets blocked more than any 4/5 I've ever seen in my life, Davies is slow, predictable, and weak - and Andersen... he's Andersen.



No way we see a tourney run this year if our inside game doesn't improve quickly. As good as our guard play is, it's not going to win us every single game.

I don't think the problem is the recruiting. It's what happens after they get to campus.
K
KYCoug
declocoug wrote:
I don't think the problem is the recruiting. It's what happens after they get to campus.


You've got to be kidding!!! :bug: Name me one big (5 spot) on our team that was a real recruiting catch. We really don't have any 5's on this team, the guys who are trying to fill that role are weak, unathletic 4's at best. We've got 1's, 2's and 3's who can hold their own with anyone but face it we've got nothing at the 5 spot. Look at the top 100 (that's a lot) in the 5 spot recruiting classes in the last 5 years and tell me who we recruited!!! Who was a real recruiting catch "big" for this team. We've got a couple of 7 footers coming next year that are slow and unathletic and nobody else wanted. Even looking outward the next 2 or 3 years if they don't grow up in Provo or at least Utah they don't get recruited. I don't even want to hear the "they wouldn't want to come to BYU because of lifestyle issues" I believe there are plenty of guys out there with moral character who would come if they understood the advantages and benefits the Y could give them and were recruited.



I'm with ya Italics on this one and I've taken heat for it as well, but until we get some bigs we will be good enough to win a lot of games, but never make a dent in the big dance!!!



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville, KY
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BroncoBot
KYCoug wrote:
I don't think the problem is the recruiting. It's what happens after they get to campus.


You've got to be kidding!!! :bug: Name me one big (5 spot) on our team that was a real recruiting catch. We really don't have any 5's on this team, the guys who are trying to fill that role are weak, unathletic 4's at best. We've got 1's, 2's and 3's who can hold their own with anyone but face it we've got nothing at the 5 spot. Look at the top 100 (that's a lot) in the 5 spot recruiting classes in the last 5 years and tell me who we recruited!!! Who was a real recruiting catch "big" for this team. We've got a couple of 7 footers coming next year that are slow and unathletic and nobody else wanted. Even looking outward the next 2 or 3 years if they don't grow up in Provo or at least Utah they don't get recruited. I don't even want to hear the "they wouldn't want to come to BYU because of lifestyle issues" I believe there are plenty of guys out there with moral character who would come if they understood the advantages and benefits the Y could give them and were recruited.



I'm with ya Italics on this one and I've taken heat for it as well, but until we get some bigs we will be good enough to win a lot of games, but never make a dent in the big dance!!!



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville, KY

Sure, it would be nice to get some mcdonald's all american's who were NBA ready to come to BYU, but how many places are getting guys like that? Chris Miles should have been much better by his Sr. year. Plaisted should have been NBA ready by his sophomore year. Davies (from what I've seen) has not improved very much over the last year.



Tell me. Who are these guys that BYU should be recruiting? Where are they and who snatched them up?



I'll tell you what, if I'm close to 7 foot, not LDS, and good enough that a couple schools are looking at me, BYU would be one of my last choices. BYU doesn't develop big men, and they don't use the post as effectively as they should. If I'm LDS, 7 foot and good enough to be recruited, I'd be seriously tempted to head to USU where I know I'm going to see the ball and be coached a little.
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mizzoucoug
declocoug wrote:
declocoug wrote:
I don't think the problem is the recruiting. It's what happens after they get to campus.


You've got to be kidding!!! :bug: Name me one big (5 spot) on our team that was a real recruiting catch. We really don't have any 5's on this team, the guys who are trying to fill that role are weak, unathletic 4's at best. We've got 1's, 2's and 3's who can hold their own with anyone but face it we've got nothing at the 5 spot. Look at the top 100 (that's a lot) in the 5 spot recruiting classes in the last 5 years and tell me who we recruited!!! Who was a real recruiting catch "big" for this team. We've got a couple of 7 footers coming next year that are slow and unathletic and nobody else wanted. Even looking outward the next 2 or 3 years if they don't grow up in Provo or at least Utah they don't get recruited. I don't even want to hear the "they wouldn't want to come to BYU because of lifestyle issues" I believe there are plenty of guys out there with moral character who would come if they understood the advantages and benefits the Y could give them and were recruited.



I'm with ya Italics on this one and I've taken heat for it as well, but until we get some bigs we will be good enough to win a lot of games, but never make a dent in the big dance!!!



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville, KY

Sure, it would be nice to get some mcdonald's all american's who were NBA ready to come to BYU, but how many places are getting guys like that? Chris Miles should have been much better by his Sr. year. Plaisted should have been NBA ready by his sophomore year. Davies (from what I've seen) has not improved very much over the last year.



Tell me. Who are these guys that BYU should be recruiting? Where are they and who snatched them up?



I'll tell you what, if I'm close to 7 foot, not LDS, and good enough that a couple schools are looking at me, BYU would be one of my last choices. BYU doesn't develop big men, and they don't use the post as effectively as they should. If I'm LDS, 7 foot and good enough to be recruited, I'd be seriously tempted to head to USU where I know I'm going to see the ball and be coached a little.


Trust me, the games that I watch on freaking Tuesday nights do not have McDonald's players, but they would all school anyone we suit up every night. We can't even get serviceable big men to come to BYU and that's a fact. Watch any game this last weekend (even Mac, C-USA, Skybelt teams) and you will see 6'10" white guys who finish passes with dunks, contest shots in the paint, and rebound with energy. We have nobody who would start on most top 150 teams in the country--that is pathetic and someone needs to be held accountable.
K
KYCoug
mizzoucoug wrote:
Trust me, the games that I watch on freaking Tuesday nights do not have McDonald's players, but they would all school anyone we suit up every night. We can't even get serviceable big men to come to BYU and that's a fact. Watch any game this last weekend (even Mac, C-USA, Skybelt teams) and you will see 6'10" white guys who finish passes with dunks, contest shots in the paint, and rebound with energy. We have nobody who would start on most top 150 teams in the country--that is pathetic and someone needs to be held accountable.


Amen and thank you. We don't need Mcdonalds All Americans but you look at the rosters of every D-1 school between Texas and North Carolina and there are tons of bigs who are better than anything we've got. I see D-2 schools with good big men here in the south that know what to do with the rock when they get it, and wonder if they were given a shot at a top 25 school that would give them lots of opportunity and exposure and a first class education, wouldn't they go for it. We can't be doing much if anything to recruit these kind of guys. Again, a top 10 player isn't going to choose the Y but we've got to be able to do better than what we are getting.



Bottom Line...it's all about recruiting!!!
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Gunk
#1 we don't recruit aggressive, overtly talented bigs. We just sort of take what's available in the state of Utah.



#2 what bigs we do have we don't train or work



#3 we don't game plan for low-post moves. It doesn't take an All-American, Shaq type big to have an inside presence. Especially with a guard like Jimmer that defenses completely collapse around the moment his toe touches the paint. All it takes is a few drawn up plans to send Davies, Noah or CC to cut to the basket on a Jimmer drive for the dish. The bigs then just need to lay it right in.



If we had any two out of the three above we'd be in good shape. Problem is, we don't any of the above, which unfortunately is quite obvious to any potential recruit. So, if I'm an athletic 7-footer I'm not even looking at BYU.



The closes thing to a legit big we've had recently was Plaisted. He was vastly under coached/utilized.
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BYULV
Gunk wrote:



The closes thing to a legit big we've had recently was Plaisted. He was vastly under coached/utilized.


He may have been under coached, but far from underutilized. Plaisted got touches on the ball nearly every possession, the offense ran through him. I think plaisted's development, or lack of it, was more a result of plaisted, not so much the coaches.



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GolfDiveNCougs
Aaaauuggghhh! My thread's been hijacked!

:lol: ;)

'S'okay, guys, my concerns over our lack of big-man play mirror many of yours. I've resigned myself to the fact that we'll lose minimum 3 games this year that wouldn't otherwise be lost due exclusively to lack of ability/desire/power/coaching of our bigs.



Still, I was chatting with Craigo after the Miss Valley game, and said we're fortunate to have gone up against a couple of bigs so far that, while not world-beaters, are still bodies to practice against, but whose presence won't put our chances of winning in jeopardy. Now, our shooting was bad enough against SF that it's a good thing their post wasn't better, because clearly the win WAS in jeopardy. But I said I thought that the experience against a good sized body could pay some dividends for our bigs later in the season. That's what we've gotten, and I'm hopeful our bigs are smart enough to learn a few things.



I saw the same things in the last 3 games. All 3 teams had guys inside who were either more talented or just plain bigger than our lot. Like the "can't practice against speed you don't have" addage, you can't coach 6'11, 280 you don't have. When we were on offense, our guys did get moved around, but they at least started to look for ways to get around them, or at least get the foul going through them, and when we were on defense, they did a decent job containing, I thought. Good news is, with our style of basketball on defense, our coaches won't often leave a guy low without a double-team. Hopefully that means teams we play that feed the post won't have sharp shooters to pass to. Still, I think our bigs are willing to learn, and we've had some opportunity.



That's a lot of typing to simply say I know it's not a great situation, but it's one we MAY be able to make the most of.



And back to the point of the original thread, I was impressed last night by the change in ATTITUDE. You could see it. You could see it on both ends, and even during dead balls. I wondered if going into SF, we were starting to believe our press clippings. I hope not, but stranger things have happened. Could just have been a bad night. We just looked off, and it showed up in everything we were doing. Night and day change between SF and SMC. We were upbeat. I can't help but wonder if somebody sat the team down after SF and told 'em, yeah, they dodged a bullet, but they need to stop taking it so seriously, trust each other, and calm down.



I think more than anything that upbeat attitude affected shooting, consequently, we had a more than decent night. I'd have expected a competitive game against St. Mary's, so I'm not at all disappointed in how it went last night. Sure there were many things we could have done better, but hey, it's all about learning life's lessons and not having to pay for them with L's.



More than anything, we're having to adjust to an entirely new team dynamic, and I think the SMC game showed we're more than able to do that. Jimmer was Jimmer, but I hope it's not just me that thinks it didn't look like the team was just standing around waiting for it against SMC like they were against SF. That's good news to me. Honestly, until his last shot, I really thought Jimmer just had a so-so night. His last shot proved he's every bit as advertised and MORE, but the good news is, until then, I thought the team did a great job of making it a cohesive effort, so we were scoring more or less at will even when Jimmer's outside shots weren't dropping.



This season still has the potential to be special. I'm enthused that adjustments CAN be made by this team on one night's sleep, and it affect us so positively. If our guys can learn from mistakes that quickly, I see us finishing very strong.
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