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Unwritten Rules

by snoscythe · 11/24/2010

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snoscythe
I thought there was an unwritten rule in basketball that when you are up by 30 (some say 20) you stop taking threes. I have to say I was a little disappointed last night to not only see Jimmer in the game when we were up by 40, but to see him and Emery (among others) taking threes less than five seconds into the shot clock.



Am I just nostalgic from a different era of basketball? Or do those unwritten rules of sportsmanship still have sway in the game today? I was a little disappointed to see it from the Cougs last night when the game was well out of reach.
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BroncoBot
I thought the same thing. For a while there, I noticed a concerted effort to get the ball into the post. Although after less than 5 minutes, it was like BYU had given that up and decided to just keep chuckin 3s.



They were falling last night. They won't all year. The post is still awful. It will cost us games and last night was the perfect opportunity to not only display sportsmanlike conduct, but slow down the runaway train and develop the post. Missed opportunities.
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SpiffCoug
Jimmer came out with 10 minutes to go in the game. Your starters still need minutes and game time. You can sit Jimmer the last 25 minutes of the game. I thought BYU did a good job of getting the starters out early. BYU didn't beat MVSU by 50 because we were jacking up threes all night long. We beat them by 50 because we grabbed 19 offensive rebounds and they shot 25% for the game to include 12% in the first half.
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KYCoug
More important aspect is to get game time and all the bugs worked out. The starters need time in the game and they actually got sloppy at times. I'm sure Rose will address that. You could say, it's not our job to keep the score down, but it looked more like a serious lack of scoring on their part when they only score 10 points in the half.
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snoscythe
KYCoug wrote:
More important aspect is to get game time and all the bugs worked out. The starters need time in the game and they actually got sloppy at times. I'm sure Rose will address that. You could say, it's not our job to keep the score down, but it looked more like a serious lack of scoring on their part when they only score 10 points in the half.


I can understand playing your starters that long early in the season to, as you say, get the bugs worked out. But is shooting a three with 30 seconds on the shot clock really working to that end?
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KYCoug
snoscythe wrote:
More important aspect is to get game time and all the bugs worked out. The starters need time in the game and they actually got sloppy at times. I'm sure Rose will address that. You could say, it's not our job to keep the score down, but it looked more like a serious lack of scoring on their part when they only score 10 points in the half.


I can understand playing your starters that long early in the season to, as you say, get the bugs worked out. But is shooting a three with 30 seconds on the shot clock really working to that end?


Don't recall the specific situation, I guess I like the Rick Pitino idea that when you have a good look at a 3 you take it and stay in rhythm with it rather than pass up good shots to eat clock.
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Gunk
The purpose of playing pasties like the Delta Devils is to break the team in and get players used to the offense in a game-like situation.



I tend to agree that when playing opponents like the team from Chicago or the Delta Devils that it would be a good time to focus on aspects of our game that need improving, like post play. Our post play is in need of serious improvement, though you have to acknowledge rebounding does seem to be better this season.



On the other hand, I understand why a coach would look at games like last night as a way to get the starters all warmed up. BYU plays a guard, shooting heavy offense. They're taught to take the open shot, which they did. Against UNLV, SDSU, etc. they can't hesitate, especially if open at the arc. By telling the shooters to pull back and feed the post, you might be inadvertently causing a degree of hesitancy to occur, making the shooter think twice. And, as anyone who's played ball knows, thinking twice can kill a shot.
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IowaCougar
Gunk wrote:
The purpose of playing pasties like the Delta Devils is to break the team in and get players used to the offense in a game-like situation.


I know we've been playing some patsies, but I don't think we'll have the opportunity for pasties until Las Vegas. :P
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gmj81
I flinched a bit at all the late threes too but as I thought about it more, the thing was, we couldn't get anything in the post anyway. Those guys were the quickest team (total team speed) I think I've ever seen BYU play. We couldn't get anything inside without them swarming whoever had the ball. Threes were all they gave us.
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craigoscarson
gmj81 wrote:
I flinched a bit at all the late threes too but as I thought about it more, the thing was, we couldn't get anything in the post anyway. Those guys were the quickest team (total team speed) I think I've ever seen BYU play. We couldn't get anything inside without them swarming whoever had the ball. Threes were all they gave us.


I dont' know what game you were watching, but we were quite effective underneath and the 1st 12 minutes of the game, we struggled because of all the missed outside shots. I give MVSU very little credit for our shooting woes there; we were cold from the outside (shots we can make) and we took some ill advised shots elsewhere.



We shot so poorly the 1st 12 minutes, that I have to believe that Dave Rose wanted desperately for his guys to get some confidence for the Padre tourney; and if that meant letting them shoot the ball when the shots were open and high percentage than sobeit.



It would be different if Rose kept his starters in, but for 1/4 of the game it was our backups vs their starters and for another 1/4 of the game we couldnt' hit the side of a barn.



Having been around hoops coaches for a very long time, I can assure you that regardless of the final score, if a team takes out their starters with 10 minutes left, you have to expect the backups to play their game (those guys are competing for future minutes), and the only rules in a blowout are don't foul and keep the clock running.
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
I was a little disappointed last night to not only see Jimmer in the game when we were up by 40, but to see him and Emery (among others) taking threes less than five seconds into the shot clock.

I think either you didn't watch/listen to the game, or you're still underestimating just how badly the offense played in the first 12 minutes. Even against a bad opponent (and these guys only lost to Georgia by 2 points), when you are playing terrible you keep the starters in and keep going full-steam until things finally start clicking. Especially if your next opponent is good, as South Florida should be.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
I was a little disappointed last night to not only see Jimmer in the game when we were up by 40, but to see him and Emery (among others) taking threes less than five seconds into the shot clock.

I think either you didn't watch/listen to the game, or you're still underestimating just how badly the offense played in the first 12 minutes. Even against a bad opponent (and these guys only lost to Georgia by 2 points), when you are playing terrible you keep the starters in and keep going full-steam until things finally start clicking. Especially if your next opponent is good, as South Florida should be.


I watched the game, and I am specifically referring to back-to-back possessions where Jimmer and Emery came down and took threes with 30+ seconds left on the shot-clock in the second half when BYU was up by over 35. Things were obviously already clicking, and offensively BYU was far from terrible at that point.
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
I watched the game, and I am specifically referring to back-to-back possessions where Jimmer and Emery came down and took threes with 30+ seconds left on the shot-clock in the second half when BYU was up by over 35. Things were obviously already clicking, and offensively BYU was far from terrible at that point.

Okay. So this was the first ten minutes of the 2nd half? Do you remember how much time was left?



Seems like sitting Jimmer at halftime might be a little much. The 3-pointer thing, I'm not sure on.
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akammerman
The threes didn't bug me, but I was bothered by having the starters in so long. Then, when Jimmer sat down and I noticed 10 minutes still left, I thought: That's an entire 1/4 of the game; I'm okay with that. On the other hand, in the flow of the game (not looking at the clock), it felt like Rose kept the starters in a bit too long.



Oh well. There are worse things to worry about. Let's have KC teach everyone else on the freakin' team how to feed the post. It seems as he is the only person to consistently do so. Pathetic.



You don't have to be shooting well to hustle, play defense, or rebound. Despite the horrific shooting at the beginning, I did notice consistent defensive pressure, and good rebounding.



Just wish they'd feed the post more.



KC has such a huge upside--I may have to eat my words from last year when I said that Tyler Haws will end up being the best player ever to wear a BYU uniform. KC can't hit the midrange jumper like Haws (that's a lost art)--but his hustle and passing is excellent. Love to see local talent. And Emery's little bro is supposed to be better than Emery or Haws. . .



Rise and Shout!
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Schmoe
What a terrible problem we have, our team is too good, wwaaahhh! Haha, we're pretty lucky to be having these kinds of discussions as opposed to the other end of the spectrum.
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KYCoug
akammerman wrote:
Let's have KC teach everyone else on the freakin' team how to feed the post. It seems as he is the only person to consistently do so. Pathetic.


Don't hold your breath on that! I don't think you should project a "Post Up" offense onto this team. Ya have to have post players that consistently know what to do with it. We don't. This team will win with it's strength in positions 1 - 3, not the 5 position.



Coach Rose knows what he is doing. There is no excuse for the sloppy play however, and sometimes when you're in a blowout that comes with that kind of game. I'm sure Coach is on them for that as well.



Go Cougs!!!



L Hatton

Louisville, KY
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Cougs_Rule
I agree with Sno.

However, I would also like to suggest that there are also some unwritten JIMMER RULES. That's right. JImmer rules. I dont think he made an explicit deal with Rose to come back for his Sr year in exchange for 20 ppg, but Jimmer was in there too long the other night. The offense was clicking and we were up by 30. Enough said. Got a tourney on the weekend, got a long road swing, get your starters rest, get the post fed and get your back-ups some pt.

But because of a poor shooting first half--especially Jimmer, he had some catching up to do and it seemed to me that he was jacking while he could because he knew he'd get pulled all to soon for him to get to 20 .
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BroncoBot
dmcougar wrote:
I agree with Sno.

However, I would also like to suggest that there are also some unwritten JIMMER RULES. That's right. JImmer rules. I dont think he made an explicit deal with Rose to come back for his Sr year in exchange for 20 ppg, but Jimmer was in there too long the other night. The offense was clicking and we were up by 30. Enough said. Got a tourney on the weekend, got a long road swing, get your starters rest, get the post fed and get your back-ups some pt.

But because of a poor shooting first half--especially Jimmer, he had some catching up to do and it seemed to me that he was jacking while he could because he knew he'd get pulled all to soon for him to get to 20 .

I agree. At the end of the first half (maybe 3-4 minutes left in the half), BYU was up by 20 and did anyone see Rose look down the bench and tell Jimmer to go back in. Sort of a "alright, get back in there and pad your stats" look.
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SpiffCoug
Hmmm... Except, Jimmer didn't get to 20. He only got to 16. And he had six assists. I'm not sure where the padding of stats happened. Unless Jimmer getting teammates involved was padding the stats.



Sorry guys, you're off on this one.
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BroncoBot
kitic77 wrote:
Hmmm... Except, Jimmer didn't get to 20. He only got to 16. And he had six assists. I'm not sure where the padding of stats happened. Unless Jimmer getting teammates involved was padding the stats.



Sorry guys, you're off on this one.

Except jimmer shot 8 threes and only made 2. Had he been closer to his season average shooting threes he would have had around 22 points. I understand that Fredette could have scored more (he didn't shoot a single free throw) and in another thread I talked about how Jimmer's APG is up this year, which is great.



Bottom line is that BYU won that game by 50. Why are BYU's starters playing significant minutes in the second half after leading by 27? Why are they shooting 3s so early in the shot clock? I understand doing it to a team like UNLV, but why MVSC?
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