What's the real problem here??

Yes, our rosters over the previous couple of years were filled with current NFL players, our team is young and inexperienced, we've had a kiss ass schedule this year so far and coaching deficiencies from years past (why da freakin' hell is RA still calling the offense..?) are becoming more apparent, but the real issue here, the way I see it, stems much deeper.



You know when we hear of internal problems as such with OC, then there are issues we don't hear about. If Bronco isn't able to clean house and those kids don't grow up, it will matter very little how talented our team is or how well they are coached...



i.e. I like Jake Heaps, I've been a fan of him from the beginning, but he is still a little immature boy, I am not surprised he's getting a little taunted... You remember his reaction to Nelson's injury..? "he went on for several minutes how great it was for him, what an amazing opportunity, blah, blah, blah..."

My roommates are pretty well connected guys. I don't name them on here cause I want them to keep giving me info, but they're hearing that nobody on the offense likes Jake, not on account of him not being a nice guy or anything, no it's more trivial than that. Apparently they have a real problem with his age and they disrespect the fact that he shows no desire to serve a mission. I guess they don't like taking orders from premies.



I wondered before if something like that would ever be a problem. I can see how it could be. Were they winning it probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, but I guess it looks to them like Jake just assumes he's going to win a Super Bowl someday and feels he can better serve the Lord on the field than IN the field. Since most of those guys decided to do BOTH... Again, were they winning and were his numbers were off the charts they probably wouldn't mind so much. But when you say there may be deeper problems than what we've seen, I think you're right. This offense divided against itself has fallen.

I agree with the assessment that not many people on the team seem to like Heaps, but I don't think it has anything to do with his desire to not serve a mission, and less to do with his age than with maybe a bit of entitlement issues that he entered the program with.

hawkwing wrote:
I agree with the assessment that not many people on the team seem to like Heaps, but I don't think it has anything to do with his desire to not serve a mission, and less to do with his age than with maybe a bit of entitlement issues that he entered the program with.

Yeah, that's just what I heard. And I can see how the mission thing and age thing would look connected to the entitlement thing. I mean I seriously doubt the non-LDS guys on the team give one hoot that Jake doesn't want to go on a mission, but I remember the attitude I had about missions when I was 21-24 and I would have had a hard time with an LDS kid that age who thinks he's too good at football to serve a mission. I wouldn't have much of a problem with it now, but then? Yeah.

taekwondave wrote:
My roommates are pretty well connected guys. I don't name them on here cause I want them to keep giving me info, but they're hearing that nobody on the offense likes Jake, not on account of him not being a nice guy or anything, no it's more trivial than that. Apparently they have a real problem with his age and they disrespect the fact that he shows no desire to serve a mission. I guess they don't like taking orders from premies.



I wondered before if something like that would ever be a problem. I can see how it could be. Were they winning it probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, but I guess it looks to them like Jake just assumes he's going to win a Super Bowl someday and feels he can better serve the Lord on the field than IN the field. Since most of those guys decided to do BOTH... Again, were they winning and were his numbers were off the charts they probably wouldn't mind so much. But when you say there may be deeper problems than what we've seen, I think you're right. This offense divided against itself has fallen.

Exactly.



It's really the tale of two cities.



Jake has always been in the limelight and it was a huge recruiting coup to get him to BYU. He set up a flippin press conference to announce his commitment (which I have to admit I did attend). He hinted early that he was looking into doing a Steve Young mission where he would shine as an athlete and then do many wonderful things in the name of the Church without actually serving a mission. That will always be a tough plan to bring to pass.



Jimmer Fredette wasn't quite so sought after, but was an accomplished athlete. Maybe being on the east coast sheltered him some whereas Jake being on the west coast and being ranked in some college recruiting sites as one of the top QBs nationally, wasn't afforded that ability.



Jimmer Fredette is a quieter, simpler person, with little fan fare. He didn't hire a publicist like Heaps, but just went out and earned his credibility. Thing was the team didn't need Jimmer to carry them on his back his freshman year. There were other stars. Not so with Jake. Jake is a lot more in the lime light and his success, or lack thereof, is getting scrutinized to a much higher level. Jimmer eluded to the fact that he probably wasn't going on a mission and it has been basically kept low key.



It just makes for a very difficult situation for Jake. People knowing that Heaps expectation is that he have a NFL-calliber college career so that he can be this ambassador for the Church as an NFL athlete just brings more lights onto the stage. I'd probably have difficulty with a true freshman coming in with all the baggage that Jake brings and having respect for him. On his side, if the wide-receivers were catching what would be a traditional normal completion rate for BYU wide receivers, then we're not even discussing this issue much. Anae's offensive game plans may be a bit anemic, but the horrific season the wide receivers have had this season when the ball has been delivered into their hands has more to do with all the upheaval of the program in my estimation.

taekwondave wrote:
My roommates are pretty well connected guys. I don't name them on here cause I want them to keep giving me info, but they're hearing that nobody on the offense likes Jake, not on account of him not being a nice guy or anything, no it's more trivial than that. Apparently they have a real problem with his age and they disrespect the fact that he shows no desire to serve a mission. I guess they don't like taking orders from premies.



I wondered before if something like that would ever be a problem. I can see how it could be. Were they winning it probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, but I guess it looks to them like Jake just assumes he's going to win a Super Bowl someday and feels he can better serve the Lord on the field than IN the field. Since most of those guys decided to do BOTH... Again, were they winning and were his numbers were off the charts they probably wouldn't mind so much. But when you say there may be deeper problems than what we've seen, I think you're right. This offense divided against itself has fallen.

If this is true, it could be the real reason why he tears it up in practice but looks worse on gameday every week. He is losing his confidence. The more I hear the more I think that something needs to be done on the offensive side of the ball (coaching) to fix the issues we are having this year with leadership. An 18 year old freshman isn't going to be able to assume a leadership role and take control of this team, the coaches are going to have to light the fire and unite this team. I just hope that this years offensive coaching debacle hasn't ruined Jake's confidence permanently.

EM_Puma wrote:

My roommates are pretty well connected guys. I don't name them on here cause I want them to keep giving me info, but they're hearing that nobody on the offense likes Jake, not on account of him not being a nice guy or anything, no it's more trivial than that. Apparently they have a real problem with his age and they disrespect the fact that he shows no desire to serve a mission. I guess they don't like taking orders from premies.



I wondered before if something like that would ever be a problem. I can see how it could be. Were they winning it probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, but I guess it looks to them like Jake just assumes he's going to win a Super Bowl someday and feels he can better serve the Lord on the field than IN the field. Since most of those guys decided to do BOTH... Again, were they winning and were his numbers were off the charts they probably wouldn't mind so much. But when you say there may be deeper problems than what we've seen, I think you're right. This offense divided against itself has fallen.

Exactly.



It's really the tale of two cities.



Jake has always been in the limelight and it was a huge recruiting coup to get him to BYU. He set up a flippin press conference to announce his commitment (which I have to admit I did attend). He hinted early that he was looking into doing a Steve Young mission where he would shine as an athlete and then do many wonderful things in the name of the Church without actually serving a mission. That will always be a tough plan to bring to pass.



Jimmer Fredette wasn't quite so sought after, but was an accomplished athlete. Maybe being on the east coast sheltered him some whereas Jake being on the west coast and being ranked in some college recruiting sites as one of the top QBs nationally, wasn't afforded that ability.



Jimmer Fredette is a quieter, simpler person, with little fan fare. He didn't hire a publicist like Heaps, but just went out and earned his credibility. Thing was the team didn't need Jimmer to carry them on his back his freshman year. There were other stars. Not so with Jake. Jake is a lot more in the lime light and his success, or lack thereof, is getting scrutinized to a much higher level.



It just makes for a very difficult situation for Jake. People knowing that Heaps expectation is that he have a NFL-calliber college career so that he can be this ambassador for the Church as an NFL athlete just brings more lights onto the stage. I'd probably have difficulty with a true freshman coming in with all the baggage that Jake brings and having respect for him. On his side, if the wide-receivers were catching what would be a traditional normal completion rate for BYU wide receivers, then we're not even discussing this issue much. Anae's offensive game plans may be a bit anemic, but the horrific season the wide receivers have had this season when the ball has been delivered into their hands has more to do with all the upheaval of the program in my estimation.

Could the reciever woes be because they are not going as hard for him as they normally would? Politics in sports are a tricky thing. You would like to think that players will play hard no matter who is playing QB but that isn't always the case. Sometimes when your guy isn't getting a "fair shake" in your mind maybe you don't block as hard or long, maybe you don't run your route as precise or at 100% and what ends up is a bad play that makes the play call look bad or whatever. It is like I have been saying for 2 days now. Coaches need to fix this issue. I don't know what they are currently doing to try to fix it but from the outside looking in, it looks like they are just going back to work, business as usual, trying to implement the next game plan. What Bronco did with the defense needs to happen to the offense.

If guys on the team are geting panties in a bunch over mission service--they need there heads on straight. Whether Jake serves or not is his business--not anyone else's. Back in the day, Nielsen did not serve, Wilson did not serve, Young did not serve, Detmer did not serve, etc. And guess what--it did not matter come game day. If the culture of the program is such that guys who do not serve get ostracized over it--sorry, but that is judgmental BS. I can see guys getting upset that Jake gets to play as a freshman when their missions may have prevented it for them--but guess what?? It was their choice. I served, and I served with guys who had no business being there and did not want to be there. I also had a few friends who opted not to. And guess what--it was their choice.



Everyone needs to man up and get behind the starter--end of story. If the team really wants to win and improve, that is what they will do. But if they want to set up an RM clique system, then BYU Football is in huge trouble. And not just on the field.

Over the past several years, it seems that one of the key elements of the program that Bronco has been building centers around player-driven leadership. Bronco has made a big deal, in past years, of how much he loves coaching the type of young men who come to BYU, citing their maturity and their leadership ability and their teachability. That is one of the unique inputs at BYU that Bronco has consciously tried to harness.



Compliments for the leadership council, by Bronco or anyone else, have been noticeably absent this year. In past years, it seems that Bronco has, on multiple occasions, praised the input of that council. I don't have any quotes or sources to support what I am saying, but I read a lot of media about the Cougars and there appears to be a large vacuum in player leadership this year by comparison to the last few. I think a lot of the successes that BYU has had during Bronco's tenure can be laid on the leadership council buying in and being unified with the coaching staff and instilling that in the other players. This year proves that Bronco's whole program doesn't work with young, entitled players who are insubordinate.



I have been thinking about the post regarding "The Cancer of Success" by Cougarbib2, and I think it is spot-on. The post and what has happened from my point of view, remind me a little of the pride cycle. BYU will never be Texas or Florida or even Boise State. We are a unique institution. The standards and the leadership culture at BYU will keep us from ever stocking up 4* and 5* athletes and succeeding with that model. This year, the highly touted incoming class has created the clash of the culture of work ethic that Bronco has worked hard to build with the walk-on program, etc. and the culture of talented entitlement. The only way this ship gets righted is if Bronco can identify and recapture the hearts of the leadership council, return the unselfish unity of past years, and reinstate the culture of work ethic over talent.



I know we complain when someone who appears less talented is playing ahead of someone who obviously has more talent, but sometimes that may help the talented player reach his potential more than playing the most talented player regardless of his work ethic. In all walks of life we all know extremely talented individuals who never reach their potential because they have never been forced to work in order to succeed. Likewise, we all know individuals who were "late bloomers" in their success because they weren't as talented but they learned to work and be relentlessly determined.

Before I get jumped, I need to clarify what I mean by my statement that we will never be Boise State. Boise State learned from the BYU of the 1970s-1990s and took our model of taking the big school cast offs and using cutting edge, unexpected offenses and good coaching of fundamentals to create a consistent winner. They have been so consistent that they now are starting to get good talent. They may struggle with the same entitled vs. seasoned issues, but without the academic and honor code standards, they won't lose those talented players during their tenure, nor will they lose out on them as recruits. They also won't have to deal with the loss of continuity from year to year that missions create. They may not amount to anything in the long-term, but they have had a pretty meteoric rise since they joined the FBS, and their recent success makes us all a little jealous, whether we admit it to ourselves or not.

Lawboy wrote:
If guys on the team are geting panties in a bunch over mission service--they need there heads on straight. Whether Jake serves or not is his business--not anyone else's. Back in the day, Nielsen did not serve, Wilson did not serve, Young did not serve, Detmer did not serve, etc. And guess what--it did not matter come game day. If the culture of the program is such that guys who do not serve get ostracized over it--sorry, but that is judgmental BS. I can see guys getting upset that Jake gets to play as a freshman when their missions may have prevented it for them--but guess what?? It was their choice. I served, and I served with guys who had no business being there and did not want to be there. I also had a few friends who opted not to. And guess what--it was their choice.



Everyone needs to man up and get behind the starter--end of story. If the team really wants to win and improve, that is what they will do. But if they want to set up an RM clique system, then BYU Football is in huge trouble. And not just on the field.

I agree. nothign bothers me more than hearing CRAP like this. Its about winning so act like it. If the players don't like jake becuase he came in as "the man", then they need to get over themselves and think more about the team than petty crap like that. small minded morons if any of this is true. If any of this is true, it is the firs thing that has ever made me question buying season tickets. That ticks me off!!!!!!! What a bunch of panzy girls. I have to believe this is not true. :angry:

NebraskaCoug wrote:
Before I get jumped, I need to clarify what I mean by my statement that we will never be Boise State. Boise State learned from the BYU of the 1970s-1990s and took our model of taking the big school cast offs and using cutting edge, unexpected offenses and good coaching of fundamentals to create a consistent winner. They have been so consistent that they now are starting to get good talent. They may struggle with the same entitled vs. seasoned issues, but without the academic and honor code standards, they won't lose those talented players during their tenure, nor will they lose out on them as recruits. They also won't have to deal with the loss of continuity from year to year that missions create. They may not amount to anything in the long-term, but they have had a pretty meteoric rise since they joined the FBS, and their recent success makes us all a little jealous, whether we admit it to ourselves or not.

Well stated. Are you looking forward to your beatdown next week at the hands of the Tigers?

I do not even see BYU struggling with entitlement issues. How many true freshman are playing for us this year? 4, maybe? Heaps, KVN, Rowley and Q. So 4 out of a class of 25 guys. Sorry, but not buying the entitlement thing at all. BYU traditionally plays about that number of true freshman each year, so only difference is having the QB be a true freshman. We play more RS freshman than true freshman--Mahina, Wilson, Muehlmann, Holt, Bryson, Hoffman, Stout.



So again, how is entitlement as issue? I'd say jealousy and pettiness over a true freshman HAVING to play is more of the real issue, if it is even one at all, which I do not see. We are just young at the wrong spots, get poor play calling to maximize out talents, and severely lacking in confidence as an offense.

I do not even see BYU struggling with entitlement issues. How many true freshman are playing for us this year? 4, maybe? Heaps, KVN, Rowley and Q. So 4 out of a class of 25 guys.

I am not basing that assumption on just the ones who are playing. I have heard plenty of rumblings, which may or may not be true, about the discontent of a highly touted tight end who isn't playing much. I may be completely wrong. It may actually be more of a problem with those who have worked hard and have less talent feeling like they should be favored. I don't know the details of what goes on within team circles. My point is that I do think that there is disunity and it appears that some of the divide is over seniority vs. talent.

Lawboy wrote:
I do not even see BYU struggling with entitlement issues. How many true freshman are playing for us this year? 4, maybe? Heaps, KVN, Rowley and Q. So 4 out of a class of 25 guys. Sorry, but not buying the entitlement thing at all. BYU traditionally plays about that number of true freshman each year, so only difference is having the QB be a true freshman. We play more RS freshman than true freshman--Mahina, Wilson, Muehlmann, Holt, Bryson, Hoffman, Stout.



So again, how is entitlement as issue? I'd say jealousy and pettiness over a true freshman HAVING to play is more of the real issue, if it is even one at all, which I do not see. We are just young at the wrong spots, get poor play calling to maximize out talents, and severely lacking in confidence as an offense.

I kind of have to agree with you. I don't really see entitlement as a problem. Jake may have had a press conference to announce his decision, but I didn't see it as entitlement to be honest. I saw it as a legitimate attempt to do what he could to draw attention to the program and encourage other big recruits from his class to come here. I honestly never thought it could be to our team's detriment, but I see now how that COULD have rubbed SOME veterans the wrong way. Too bad. I don't think I've heard one word about Jake having a bad attitude or anything so far this season and I wish the guys would support him. It kind of just looks to me like the guys on offense are just FREAKING out because they expected to be so much better than this and they're looking for some explanation. I can see how the 18 year old QB with horrible numbers so far would be an easy place to point a finger. But you know what? Were Lark or Munns starting and having the same bad numbers they'd be pointing the finger at them and asking why the 5* recruit with the tight spiral wasn't getting his shot yet. Losing does this to people I guess.

Whether there is really a sense of entitlement or just a perception of it by others is really unimportant. For a team to succeed, they have to be unified. My point is not really to focus so much on the entitlement or lack thereof, it is more focused on the absence of offensive leaders who Bronco trusts, who have the universal trust of their teammates, who buy in to what the coaches are doing, and who are willing to put down disunity on the ground level.



I think there are some leaders on the defense who really buy in to what Bronco is doing, and as a result, they have made a huge improvement. Andrew Rich is clearly a leader. Another is Brian Logan. He is very impressive to me. He was close to Jaime Hill, but when Bronco let him go, Brian's comments were supportive of Bronco, showing that he was willing to trust the coach and do whatever he asked of him. I attended the BYU fireside in Fort Worth, and I was extremely impressed when it came time for the players to sing "The Armies of Helaman," Brian Logan and Corby Eason were in the front row singing and participating with their teammates. To me, that is a sign of a leader who, regardless of what he thinks of our religion (I don't have any insight into his religious beliefs or his feelings about ours) understands the importance of unity and leading by example. I was very, very impressed with Brian and Corby.



I hate to say it, because I wanted Chambers to be successful at BYU and because I have a lot of respect for his mother, but he appears to have been undermining unity on the offensive side and could have learned a lot about leadership from Brian Logan.

taekwondave wrote:

I do not even see BYU struggling with entitlement issues. How many true freshman are playing for us this year? 4, maybe? Heaps, KVN, Rowley and Q. So 4 out of a class of 25 guys. Sorry, but not buying the entitlement thing at all. BYU traditionally plays about that number of true freshman each year, so only difference is having the QB be a true freshman. We play more RS freshman than true freshman--Mahina, Wilson, Muehlmann, Holt, Bryson, Hoffman, Stout.



So again, how is entitlement as issue? I'd say jealousy and pettiness over a true freshman HAVING to play is more of the real issue, if it is even one at all, which I do not see. We are just young at the wrong spots, get poor play calling to maximize out talents, and severely lacking in confidence as an offense.

I kind of have to agree with you. I don't really see entitlement as a problem. Jake may have had a press conference to announce his decision, but I didn't see it as entitlement to be honest. I saw it as a legitimate attempt to do what he could to draw attention to the program and encourage other big recruits from his class to come here. I honestly never thought it could be to our team's detriment, but I see now how that COULD have rubbed SOME veterans the wrong way. Too bad. I don't think I've heard one word about Jake having a bad attitude or anything so far this season and I wish the guys would support him. It kind of just looks to me like the guys on offense are just FREAKING out because they expected to be so much better than this and they're looking for some explanation. I can see how the 18 year old QB with horrible numbers so far would be an easy place to point a finger. But you know what? Were Lark or Munns starting and having the same bad numbers they'd be pointing the finger at them and asking why the 5* recruit with the tight spiral wasn't getting his shot yet. Losing does this to people I guess.

I agree with you 100% on this. The only player comments I have heard support Jake, including from Matt Reynolds, the receivers, etc.



NebraskaCoug--I know you have to be referring to Richard Wilson, who has been clearly frustrated by barely seeing the field since the AFA game. His tweets support this, although they are rather cryptic. I really have no idea why he has not been allowed to play in 5 weeks--it simply baffles me. He at least showed a propensity for getting open, and I hope we see him v. Wyoming, because he can be a playmaker for us.

I was referring to Richard Wilson, and I hope he sees the field more too. I would be frustrated if I were him too, although I don't think it is appropriate in a team sport to communicate your frustration with your own role to the world too much. It creates a perception that you don't trust the coaches.



Like I have said, my point isn't about whether there is entitlement or not, it appears that there is a problem with a lack of team focus and unity. Losing has a tendency to get into people's heads. The only way that the season and the program will successfully be turned around is if these issues with disunity are rooted out and squashed.

I think losing does put pressure in places where you are not used to it and tests your mettle individually and as a team for sure. I know Bronco has said as much, and I am sure he is aware of some of the isues we bring up more clearly than we are. The impressuve thing is that he got the defensive side of the ball worked out quickly. The unfortunate thing is that the offensive issues have not been worked out yet. The hope is that the issues do not turn into offense vs defense because that is when things can really turn ugly. It is also why I think Bronco went back to the Band of Brothers mantra. Win as a team, lose asa team.

mizzoucoug wrote:

Well stated. Are you looking forward to your beatdown next week at the hands of the Tigers?

I'm not living in Lincoln anymore, and even when I was there I was always a blue-goggled homer :crazy: , so I am not as plugged into the Big Red as I was. There isn't enough time to work, have a family and follow two major college football programs rabidly.



However, that being said, after what Texas did to them last week, I think they'll bounce back. I don't see Mizzou putting a beatdown on the Huskers. At least not this week. ;)