Final Four Run 2011

Last season I started a thread asking "Why will this team win a tourney game?" and it turns out we were pretty good. However, our team consistently fell back on 3's and refused to establish a post game (Rose's Achilles heel). Our defense against penetrating guards was also weak because we have zero shot-blocking presence down low, which is why we can't get the big stops when we need them (KSU game).



I see these as the 2 major weaknesses of the team that must be fixed, and so I ask (assuming what we knew about the team last year remains consistent) do we have a scoring big man[/u] and shot-blockers[/u] this season for a Final Four run?



Davies has sick moves, but he's not that explosive. Still, he should get 20 touches per night IMO. He is the only viable option to score down there consistently, and he must be established every night.



Collinsworth may be our only hope to reject shots from the paint. Can he fill this role? I don't know but I think the success of our season depends on it.

Inside game, as you mention is our Achilles heel. It should be better though this year, at least on the offensive side.



Davies should be a much better threat down low than we've had in recent seasons, but I worry about his defense. Granted he was a freshman last year, but he had trouble establishing his presence down low on defense. I'm too lazy to look up how many blocks he had. I know he had a few, but certainly wasn't a prolific shot blocker.



Same kind of goes with Collinsworth. He'll still be getting his legs back under him. I expect he'll do better on the offensive side than the defensive side.



We have Noah too, but again, not a shot blocker. Noah's defense is pretty good down in the paint, but that's usually against other bigs and not quick guards.



Guess we'll just have to stop the guards at the perimeter...



From what I remember reading, Jimmer was basically told by NBA scouts that he needed to work on his ball circulation skills. I'm really, really hoping that Jimmer and Rose have taken this to heart. When Jimmer drives to the lane this season, you can bet the defense will collapse around him. All Davies, Noah or Collinsworth will need to do is cut to the other side for the dish and lay it in. Jimmer was very reluctant last season to give the ball up in those circumstances. Yes, getting fouled is good, but you're not always going to get those calls and if you don't pass it off the offense becomes completely one-dimensional.

mizzoucoug wrote:
Last season I started a thread asking "Why will this team win a tourney game?" and it turns out we were pretty good. However, our team consistently fell back on 3's and refused to establish a post game (Rose's Achilles heel). Our defense against penetrating guards was also weak because we have zero shot-blocking presence down low, which is why we can't get the big stops when we need them (KSU game).



I see these as the 2 major weaknesses of the team that must be fixed, and so I ask (assuming what we knew about the team last year remains consistent) do we have a scoring big man[/u] and shot-blockers[/u] this season for a Final Four run?



Davies has sick moves, but he's not that explosive. Still, he should get 20 touches per night IMO. He is the only viable option to score down there consistently, and he must be established every night.



Collinsworth may be our only hope to reject shots from the paint. Can he fill this role? I don't know but I think the success of our season depends on it.

1. This team will emply a ton of zone D; it slows down the break some, but it also helps hide smaller, softer bigs. (this is how we've been consistently beating SDSU)

Against teams that shoot the 3 well, we usually have more than enough size (quickness has been the issue against UNLV, etc.)



2. You can't talk about our bigs, without discussing the top returning rebounder, shot blocker and scorer in the paint... Noah Hartsock... like him or not; he delivered more than anyone else.

I'm not sure what team you were watching, but Noah Hartsock is a shot blocker; he averaged 1.3 blocks a game, compared to the 2nd best avg of .6 by Chris Miles. James Anderson is also a capable shot blocker; he's also capable of a turnover everytime he touches the ball.



3. Shot blocking is not a major factor in W/L differential... but offensive rebounding is. You want wins, get your bigs to rebound on the offensive end.



I'd be willing to bet that Noah leads the team in rebounds, blocked shots and is the top scorer in the paint. (just like last year) I'm not sure if that bodes well for us or not, but Hartsock is more than capable of contributing at the 4. Noah also led the team in FG% (.564) and shot .846 from the FT line. (compare that to the .560 of Davies from the FT line)



How anyone could bank on Chris Collinsworth to be the guy at the 4, when he's been gone for 2 years with Noah coming back and having posted better numbers last year than Chris did his freshman year is beyond me.

Collinsworth averaged 16 minutes a game his freshman year and averaged 0.4 blocks per game, so I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that he was a top notch shot blocker. He was however a very good offensive rebounder; though he shot .432 from the FT line. If you're banking on Chris Collinsworth to get us to the final four, then dont' bother buying your tickets... at least not this year.



There are no Kawhi Leonards on this team... but you're banking on the wrong guys based on recent history. Davies will be streaky and people will consider him soft at times, but our most consistent player on defense will be Noah... just like last year.



(there once was a youtube video of an AAU game where Noah completely dominated both of the Lopez brothers... if it's still out there , watch it and you'll be drooling if we ever discover that kid. He did average nearly 30 in the top division in Oklahoma high school hoops... compare that to Davies, who I dont' think ever scored 30 in a high school game, in spite of the fact that he wasn't in the highest division in Utah).



On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

craigoscarson wrote:

Last season I started a thread asking "Why will this team win a tourney game?" and it turns out we were pretty good. However, our team consistently fell back on 3's and refused to establish a post game (Rose's Achilles heel). Our defense against penetrating guards was also weak because we have zero shot-blocking presence down low, which is why we can't get the big stops when we need them (KSU game).



I see these as the 2 major weaknesses of the team that must be fixed, and so I ask (assuming what we knew about the team last year remains consistent) do we have a scoring big man[/u] and shot-blockers[/u] this season for a Final Four run?



Davies has sick moves, but he's not that explosive. Still, he should get 20 touches per night IMO. He is the only viable option to score down there consistently, and he must be established every night.



Collinsworth may be our only hope to reject shots from the paint. Can he fill this role? I don't know but I think the success of our season depends on it.

1. This team will emply a ton of zone D; it slows down the break some, but it also helps hide smaller, softer bigs. (this is how we've been consistently beating SDSU)

Against teams that shoot the 3 well, we usually have more than enough size (quickness has been the issue against UNLV, etc.)



2. You can't talk about our bigs, without discussing the top returning rebounder, shot blocker and scorer in the paint... Noah Hartsock... like him or not; he delivered more than anyone else.

I'm not sure what team you were watching, but Noah Hartsock is a shot blocker; he averaged 1.3 blocks a game, compared to the 2nd best avg of .6 by Chris Miles. James Anderson is also a capable shot blocker; he's also capable of a turnover everytime he touches the ball.



3. Shot blocking is not a major factor in W/L differential... but offensive rebounding is. You want wins, get your bigs to rebound on the offensive end.



I'd be willing to bet that Noah leads the team in rebounds, blocked shots and is the top scorer in the paint. (just like last year) I'm not sure if that bodes well for us or not, but Hartsock is more than capable of contributing at the 4. Noah also led the team in FG% (.564) and shot .846 from the FT line. (compare that to the .560 of Davies from the FT line)



How anyone could bank on Chris Collinsworth to be the guy at the 4, when he's been gone for 2 years with Noah coming back and having posted better numbers last year than Chris did his freshman year is beyond me.

Collinsworth averaged 16 minutes a game his freshman year and averaged 0.4 blocks per game, so I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that he was a top notch shot blocker. He was however a very good offensive rebounder; though he shot .432 from the FT line. If you're banking on Chris Collinsworth to get us to the final four, then dont' bother buying your tickets... at least not this year.



There are no Kawhi Leonards on this team... but you're banking on the wrong guys based on recent history. Davies will be streaky and people will consider him soft at times, but our most consistent player on defense will be Noah... just like last year.



(there once was a youtube video of an AAU game where Noah completely dominated both of the Lopez brothers... if it's still out there , watch it and you'll be drooling if we ever discover that kid. He did average nearly 30 in the top division in Oklahoma high school hoops... compare that to Davies, who I dont' think ever scored 30 in a high school game, in spite of the fact that he wasn't in the highest division in Utah).



On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

...1.3 blocks a game? Knew I should have looked up the stats.

craigoscarson wrote:

Last season I started a thread asking "Why will this team win a tourney game?" and it turns out we were pretty good. However, our team consistently fell back on 3's and refused to establish a post game (Rose's Achilles heel). Our defense against penetrating guards was also weak because we have zero shot-blocking presence down low, which is why we can't get the big stops when we need them (KSU game).



I see these as the 2 major weaknesses of the team that must be fixed, and so I ask (assuming what we knew about the team last year remains consistent) do we have a scoring big man[/u] and shot-blockers[/u] this season for a Final Four run?



Davies has sick moves, but he's not that explosive. Still, he should get 20 touches per night IMO. He is the only viable option to score down there consistently, and he must be established every night.



Collinsworth may be our only hope to reject shots from the paint. Can he fill this role? I don't know but I think the success of our season depends on it.

1. This team will emply a ton of zone D; it slows down the break some, but it also helps hide smaller, softer bigs. (this is how we've been consistently beating SDSU)

Against teams that shoot the 3 well, we usually have more than enough size (quickness has been the issue against UNLV, etc.)



2. You can't talk about our bigs, without discussing the top returning rebounder, shot blocker and scorer in the paint... Noah Hartsock... like him or not; he delivered more than anyone else.

I'm not sure what team you were watching, but Noah Hartsock is a shot blocker; he averaged 1.3 blocks a game, compared to the 2nd best avg of .6 by Chris Miles. James Anderson is also a capable shot blocker; he's also capable of a turnover everytime he touches the ball.



3. Shot blocking is not a major factor in W/L differential... but offensive rebounding is. You want wins, get your bigs to rebound on the offensive end.



I'd be willing to bet that Noah leads the team in rebounds, blocked shots and is the top scorer in the paint. (just like last year) I'm not sure if that bodes well for us or not, but Hartsock is more than capable of contributing at the 4. Noah also led the team in FG% (.564) and shot .846 from the FT line. (compare that to the .560 of Davies from the FT line)



How anyone could bank on Chris Collinsworth to be the guy at the 4, when he's been gone for 2 years with Noah coming back and having posted better numbers last year than Chris did his freshman year is beyond me.

Collinsworth averaged 16 minutes a game his freshman year and averaged 0.4 blocks per game, so I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that he was a top notch shot blocker. He was however a very good offensive rebounder; though he shot .432 from the FT line. If you're banking on Chris Collinsworth to get us to the final four, then dont' bother buying your tickets... at least not this year.



There are no Kawhi Leonards on this team... but you're banking on the wrong guys based on recent history. Davies will be streaky and people will consider him soft at times, but our most consistent player on defense will be Noah... just like last year.



(there once was a youtube video of an AAU game where Noah completely dominated both of the Lopez brothers... if it's still out there , watch it and you'll be drooling if we ever discover that kid. He did average nearly 30 in the top division in Oklahoma high school hoops... compare that to Davies, who I dont' think ever scored 30 in a high school game, in spite of the fact that he wasn't in the highest division in Utah).



On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

I get what you're saying Craig O but Noah has been a non-factor on this team offensively for 2 years now. What makes you think he'll be the dominating presence down-low that we need? Maybe it has more to do with how Rose runs the offense but we haven't had a big who can put up points consistently and that includes Hartsock (trust me I know all about his accomplishments in Oklahoma). But you can't honestly tell me that based on what you have seen from Davies and Hartsock IN COLLEGE that Noah is the better pure scorer--that is laughable (Davies was a freshman mind you so avoid apples:oranges comparisons in stats). I think Davies is a little soft but he's new--my point is that it needs to be Davies because Noah hasn't shown to be dominant and he's been here how many years now?



And I'm not looking for Shawn Bradley here, I just want a guy in the middle who will challenge shots...he may have had some blocks down in the paint against smaller forwards, but we need someone who can get up in the middle of the paint and swat guards. When little guys penetrate there is almost never anything stopping them from scoring. Do you remember K-State?

I was there.

Kstate was not about penetration; it was about the 3 pointers. BYU did fine in the paint defensively... I'm not saying that Noah will be dominant, but that he was our best shot blocker, rebounder, and scorer last season and has shown flashes of what he did at the prep level. Noah was a warrior against Kstate. More importantly, he doesn't make big mistakes or turn the ball over; something that Davies has a propensity for.



My personal feeling is that there's nothing you can do to make this team final four capable and you're right, the biggest reason is because our bigs are not aggresive or strong enough, but Noah is an asset and will finish his career at BYU as the best 4 we've had since KT and Mekeli Wesley. He's a steady hand... not great, but he doesn't hurt you. That's good enough for BYU to be the favorite in nearly every game we play this season (except maybe at SDSU and UNLV). I'm not sure it's good enough once we hit the dance and play some teams with real size and quicks.

I think we'd see a slightly different/better Noah if Rose was better at going inside.



Rose likes to play Nellie "small ball," though, so I actually think we've never really seen what Noah is capable of doing, which is kind of sad because Noah probably hasn't even seen what he's fully capable of doing.



I just hope he doesn't get senioritist mixed with some marriage-itist.



I'm really curious to see how Davies will look this year. Has anyone seen him play?

craigoscarson wrote:
On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

Although it would be very difficult to actually attach specifically to the player's performance, I cannot remember seeing a player that gets married actually improve their game and actually, in recentl memory (Miles, JT, etc.) it has "appeared" to have a negative effective. Maybe that's something that Jimmer has seen that has kept him single for now.

EM_Puma wrote:

On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

Although it would be very difficult to actually attach specifically to the player's performance, I cannot remember seeing a player that gets married actually improve their game and actually, in recentl memory (Miles, JT, etc.) it has "appeared" to have a negative effective. Maybe that's something that Jimmer has seen that has kept him single for now.

What about Trent...wait...nevermind...

Well one game may not mean much but maybe the big man by committee approach could work for us. We don't have a dominant big guy but Noah played a great game. I know I have doubted him...he's clearly a talent, but he has been apprehensive in the system for whatever reason. He has good touch around the basket and can shoot jump shots--I can't remember the last big guy who could do that on BYU. By all means if he is going to stay aggressive start that kid.



I think Collinsworth and Davies should be better rebounders than what we had last year, but it seemed like we got torn up early on the boards (long misses perhaps idk). As far as who will play the sticky D down low well I'm not sure that will be solved with the current roster. Depth is key and it looks like that may be our best way become a little more dominant in the paint on both ends.

Gunk wrote:

craigoscarson wrote:
On the downside, Noah got married this summer; and we've seen marriage completely drain the fire out of a player at times.

Although it would be very difficult to actually attach specifically to the player's performance, I cannot remember seeing a player that gets married actually improve their game and actually, in recentl memory (Miles, JT, etc.) it has "appeared" to have a negative effective. Maybe that's something that Jimmer has seen that has kept him single for now.

What about Trent...wait...nevermind...

What about Jackson? He got married right before the 08-09 season and he's only gotten better since...

I think BYU will live and die by the guardline--again. Not sure if it is the Rose offense, or if our bigs are just average at best, but our frontline is not good enough for us to be great. We have to shoot well to win. I wish we could get Stew Morrill to teach our bigs how to play the post. He turns slow, unathletic big guys into decent post players. We don't.

Little Brother has a great coach - in basketball. The Provo High connection runs strong. I remember Craig Drury and Stu from my days at Provo High. I am not a grad, but went there nearly two years.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">