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Agree or disagree with coaching philosophy?

by Cougy_Monster · 10/13/2010

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Cougy_Monster
This week Bronco said the following (which we've all heard before):



Q: Are you planning on stopping or just keeping up with TCU?



A: I would say neither. The focus is on improving our team. TCU is the next opponent, but I didn’t address San Diego State really at all last week. I really don’t intend to address TCU this week. My focus still is on our team and driving them and motivating them and teaching them. TCU is just our next opponent.


I agree in principle that improving yourself and turning weaknesses to strengths and fine tuning execution will produce great results, but doesn't it seem like the majority of great coaches past and present talk about gameplanning for the opponent to expose their weaknesses too?



In the late 80's and early 90's Michael Jordan lit up every single NBA team and wiped the floor with their defense regardless of the level of execution. Knowing Jordan would stand between his team and an NBA title, Piston's coach Chuck Daly came up with the "Jordan Rules" whereby the team would throw mixed defenses at Jordan all night with varied levels of aggressiveness to keep him guessing. The result? It totally worked and the Piston's won back-to-back NBA titles after beating the Bulls in the playoffs.



So, how did the Bulls overcome this defensive brilliance? With a strategic counter gameplan. The triangle offense was implemented and Jordan learned to share the ball since only team play could beat the Jordan Rules.



I'm afraid that no matter how well Bronco can inspire the team to execute we will never finish the year ranked #1 without implementing some form of "Texas rules" or "Irish Rules" when we play teams loaded with talent.
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Y 4 Ever
This is my biggest beef with Bronco and why so many people think KW is a better coach - Bronco's insistence that you don't need to game plan for specific teams (even though he DOES in fact do it...sometimes...see OU). But you know what I mean. And KW knows how to put a game plan together for specific opponents.
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Gunk
Given the current state of the team, I would agree.



That said, you can bet Bronco and staff have been watching TCU game film and preparing to play and beat TCU. Bronco acknowledged putting together a game plan to beat SDSU, so why would he not do it with TCU?



What we're witnessing here is the classic example in an interview of avoiding a question. First, let's point out that the question is a stupid one. What team is going to say, "Nope we're just hoping to keep it competitive." Every team/coach, or at least the good ones, play to win, so of course, Bronco and company are planning on stopping TCU. They're not planning on letting TCU roll over them.



Second, Bronco doesn't want to look like an idiot and say, "Yes, we're planning on stopping them" for a couple of reasons: A) it would lead to a follow up question on how BYU was planning on stopping TCU and Bronco certainly prefers to keep is cards close to the chest, as he should; B) saying we're planning on stopping them could set some mighty high expectations or get misconstrued, so better safe then sorry.
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Cougy_Monster
Of course Bronco et al watch film and dissect opponents' strengths and weaknesses.



But, rarely is there a game when we see a significant variation in playcalling, style or aggressiveness. The OU game is the exception. The difference between USU and SDSU is another exception.....because we switched coaches during the week.



Really it must be the easiest thing in the world to gameplan for BYU. You know what the Cougs will do. That doesn't mean it'll be easy to beat the Cougs since most years the execution is stellar and you can't stop it even though you know it's coming. Kind of like trying to stop the pick and roll with Stockton and Malone.



In fact, the only team that successfully stopped the Stockton-Malone execution machine at it's peak was.....drumroll please.....the Bulls with Jordan.



Bronco asks the players to execute to perfection. I wish he'd ask Anae to call plays and gameplan to perfection too.
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Gunk
I think to a degree you're picking out what you want and interpreting it to fit your prejudices.



For example, here's another recent quote from Bronco:



“I spend a half hour a day in the head coach’s office, which is the exact opposite percentages of what it had been prior to that. So from running practice, to running meetings, to designing schemes and strategies, and planning, I basically took on the role of an assistant coach, as well as a head coach, last week.”



According this quote it appears Bronco is game planning.



http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/50462300-88/byu-coach-hall-mendenhall.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Metallicat
Good find Gunk. It's amusing to me that people think we could have four straight seasons with double digit wins and national rankings and still think Bronco doesn't game plan.
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BYULV
I think with this young team they need to work on themselves as opposed to specifics about another team. The coaches need to be spending their time game planning and preparing specifically for TCU and then call the plays and get the team properly motivated come game time. If we already had the basics down it would make a lot more sense to gear more toward a specific team, but until we can get down our routes, catch our passes and stay with our assignments and pursuit then specific game planning will be useless from the players' standpoint anyway.



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jonnylingo
This is why we have not gone undefeated but it is also the reason we have been consistently good and win the games we should. There is a trade off there. Of course bronco gameplans but not to the degree kwitt or patterson do. Its hard to say for sure from the outside looking in though



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Metallicat
jonnylingo wrote:
This is why we have not gone undefeated but it is also the reason we have been consistently good and win the games we should. There is a trade off there. Of course bronco gameplans but not to the degree kwitt or patterson do. Its hard to say for sure from the outside looking in though[/b]



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Unless you've sat in meetings with all three programs, you can't possibly be able to know how much Bronco game plans compared to other coaches. Now you could argue that they have game planned better at times, but to say Bronco doesn't do it is foolish.
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Cougy_Monster
Metallicat wrote:
Good find Gunk. It's amusing to me that people think we could have four straight seasons with double digit wins and national rankings and still think Bronco doesn't game plan.


Just to clarify. My comment was not to claim that Bronco doesn't gameplan at all and hasn't been successful. I just think that if BYU is going to do what we all hope and win it all then we're going to have to knock off the best talent in the country and that is going to take more than execution and small shifts in play-calling philosophy week to week.



Only 1 coach in the NBA controlled Jordan with an effective gameplan (albeit temporarily). The rest tried to gameplan but it appeared that they weren't willing to completely change the identity of their team against a certain opponent. Chuck Daly even talked a few times about how the Pistons' "Bad Boy" image was a result of making his players rough up Jordan. That wasn't the normal gameplan against other opponents...but it did carry over a little.





I understand the need to stick up for Bronco -- I wouldn't want anybody else at the helm. When others criticize I often jump to his defense, just like I did with Crowton. And if you really believe that Bronco shifts the focus of the team to a specific gameplan with the goal of getting a W that week instead of continuing on a constant path to larger goals I'll respect that. I just don't see it on Saturdays all that often.



And there is nothing amusing about watching a team with no heart and coaches with no plan against the likes of Utah State.
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BigCougsFan
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Good find Gunk. It's amusing to me that people think we could have four straight seasons with double digit wins and national rankings and still think Bronco doesn't game plan.


Just to clarify. My comment was not to claim that Bronco doesn't gameplan at all and hasn't been successful. I just think that if BYU is going to do what we all hope and win it all then we're going to have to knock off the best talent in the country and that is going to take more than execution and small shifts in play-calling philosophy week to week.



Only 1 coach in the NBA controlled Jordan with an effective gameplan (albeit temporarily). The rest tried to gameplan but it appeared that they weren't willing to completely change the identity of their team against a certain opponent. Chuck Daly even talked a few times about how the Pistons' "Bad Boy" image was a result of making his players rough up Jordan. That wasn't the normal gameplan against other opponents...but it did carry over a little.





I understand the need to stick up for Bronco -- I wouldn't want anybody else at the helm. When others criticize I often jump to his defense, just like I did with Crowton. And if you really believe that Bronco shifts the focus of the team to a specific gameplan with the goal of getting a W that week instead of continuing on a constant path to larger goals I'll respect that. I just don't see it on Saturdays all that often.



And there is nothing amusing about watching a team with no heart and coaches with no plan against the likes of Utah State.


Dang you're intrigued with basketball.



Use better examples like how Florida St., Air Force, Nevada, and Utah St game planned against us. Non of this MJ and Chuck Daily talk.



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frdbtr
Cougy_Monster wrote:
And there is nothing amusing about watching a team with no heart and coaches with no plan against the likes of Utah State[/color].


Uhh, the coaches had a plan against utah state. It got thrown out the window when the defense gave up 4 scores in 5 offensive possessions to utah state in the first half. The reason SDSU looked like a good plan is because the defense didn't allow SDSU to walk up and down the field on us all day for scores.
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CAFB_04-12
Obviously the coaches game plan. I think that he means that they're not going to practice anything that is just specific to TCU. It seems that they have already practiced everything they do, and they're just working on perfecting that stuff.
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craigoscarson
Cougy_Monster wrote:
This week Bronco said the following (which we've all heard before):



Q: Are you planning on stopping or just keeping up with TCU?



A: I would say neither. The focus is on improving our team. TCU is the next opponent, but I didn’t address San Diego State really at all last week. I really don’t intend to address TCU this week. My focus still is on our team and driving them and motivating them and teaching them. TCU is just our next opponent.


I agree in principle that improving yourself and turning weaknesses to strengths and fine tuning execution will produce great results, but doesn't it seem like the majority of great coaches past and present talk about gameplanning for the opponent to expose their weaknesses too?



In the late 80's and early 90's Michael Jordan lit up every single NBA team and wiped the floor with their defense regardless of the level of execution. Knowing Jordan would stand between his team and an NBA title, Piston's coach Chuck Daly came up with the "Jordan Rules" whereby the team would throw mixed defenses at Jordan all night with varied levels of aggressiveness to keep him guessing. The result? It totally worked and the Piston's won back-to-back NBA titles after beating the Bulls in the playoffs.



So, how did the Bulls overcome this defensive brilliance? With a strategic counter gameplan. The triangle offense was implemented and Jordan learned to share the ball since only team play could beat the Jordan Rules.



I'm afraid that no matter how well Bronco can inspire the team to execute we will never finish the year ranked #1 without implementing some form of "Texas rules" or "Irish Rules" when we play teams loaded with talent.


I've got to disagree with the Jordan analogy (simply because for me the 1980s were what made the NBA beautiful and I have a soft spot for the teams from then). The Bulls had not fully matured yet and Jordans game was not well rounded enough until 1990 and beyond. The Pistons were the class of the east and it really wasn't that close, as Boston was aging fast. In fact in 1988 the Bulls were nearly swept by the Pistons in the 2nd round. In 1989 the Pistons were so good, that they swept the Lakers in the finals, in spite of the fact that the Lakers had not lost another game in the playoffs.

In 1990 the Bulls had matured and took the Pistons to the brink and in 1991, they dominated everyone on the way to the finals and MJs 1st championship. That does not speak to me as the Bulls being shut out previously to that because of some other teams coaching, but rather it took that long for Jordan, Pippen and crew to mature; and once they did, they were nearly impossible to beat for a long time (honestly the entire 90s would have been Michaels if he had never stepped away)



While I believe in coaching, the Pistons had substantially more experienced and mature talent than the Bulls in the years that they won their championships. It wasn't the Jordan rules, it was an all world guard duo in Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars and possibly the best defensive front court in NBA history in Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Rich Mahorn, John Salley, James Edwards and Mark Aguirre. Throw in the most explosive (yet erratic) scorer in the league not named Jordan (Vinnie the Microwave Johnson) and you had the best and most experienced talent equipped to win the NBA championship, as long as Magic and Kareem were injured.



If there's a lesson to be learned from the analogy above, is that our young talent is not ready to take the next step. We have next to no senior leadership (Brian Logan, Andrew Rich and Brandon Bradley... Vic Sooto has been practically MIA on the pass rush) That's practically it. We simply won't miss our senior class next year and this year we miss last years senior class more than ever.

Mcgregor posted a thread many weeks ago about how Texas was playing so many freshmen.... and look, they're not in the top 25. it's not a mystery folks.... we're young and inexperienced, yet very very talented and teams like that play erratic, especially when you have coaches like Jaime Hill that resfuse to defer to some of that young talent from the beginning.



Then there's the schedule. There's no reason to believe that if we had Utahs OOC sched that we too would be well over .500. That would just mask he fact that our talent is painfully young and it will take time. (I believe on my last count, that we had less than a dozen seniors on scholarship btw; and several only play special teams, if that)
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Cougy_Monster
craigoscarson wrote:


I've got to disagree with the Jordan analogy (simply because for me the 1980s were what made the NBA beautiful and I have a soft spot for the teams from then). The Bulls had not fully matured yet and Jordans game was not well rounded enough until 1990 and beyond. The Pistons were the class of the east and it really wasn't that close, as Boston was aging fast. In fact in 1988 the Bulls were nearly swept by the Pistons in the 2nd round. In 1989 the Pistons were so good, that they swept the Lakers in the finals, in spite of the fact that the Lakers had not lost another game in the playoffs.

In 1990 the Bulls had matured and took the Pistons to the brink and in 1991, they dominated everyone on the way to the finals and MJs 1st championship. That does not speak to me as the Bulls being shut out previously to that because of some other teams coaching, but rather it took that long for Jordan, Pippen and crew to mature; and once they did, they were nearly impossible to beat for a long time (honestly the entire 90s would have been Michaels if he had never stepped away)



While I believe in coaching, the Pistons had substantially more experienced and mature talent than the Bulls in the years that they won their championships. It wasn't the Jordan rules, it was an all world guard duo in Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars and possibly the best defensive front court in NBA history in Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Rich Mahorn, John Salley, James Edwards and Mark Aguirre. Throw in the most explosive (yet erratic) scorer in the league not named Jordan (Vinnie the Microwave Johnson) and you had the best and most experienced talent equipped to win the NBA championship, as long as Magic and Kareem were injured.



If there's a lesson to be learned from the analogy above, is that our young talent is not ready to take the next step. We have next to no senior leadership (Brian Logan, Andrew Rich and Brandon Bradley... Vic Sooto has been practically MIA on the pass rush) That's practically it. We simply won't miss our senior class next year and this year we miss last years senior class more than ever.

Mcgregor posted a thread many weeks ago about how Texas was playing so many freshmen.... and look, they're not in the top 25. it's not a mystery folks.... we're young and inexperienced, yet very very talented and teams like that play erratic, especially when you have coaches like Jaime Hill that resfuse to defer to some of that young talent from the beginning.



Then there's the schedule. There's no reason to believe that if we had Utahs OOC sched that we too would be well over .500. That would just mask he fact that our talent is painfully young and it will take time. (I believe on my last count, that we had less than a dozen seniors on scholarship btw; and several only play special teams, if that)


Great point. And agreed, 80's and 90's NBA basketball was simply phenomenal.



I still think Jordan was held in check longer by the Pistons than other NBA teams simply because they realized that against certain opponents you have to change the rules. And even with all that talent on the Pistons, Chuck Daly still repeatedly expressed his view that his team needed to approach their opponents very differently to win it all.



I completely agree that our current biggest problem is inexperience (both players and coaches). The players because they're young and the coaches because this is their first experience with a losing team and no appreciable senior leadership. When this team gels with each other and the coaches we'll all be loving the result. Then there won't be any threads about execution vs gameplan, just threads about busting the bcs as an independent. I hope when we're playing in our 1st BcS game against an undefeated team loaded with talent that we come out of the gate with great player leadership, perfect execution and a gameplan that leaves them wondering what just happened. That is the 1-2-3 combo that will get us the trophy.
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jonnylingo
Metallicat wrote:
This is why we have not gone undefeated but it is also the reason we have been consistently good and win the games we should. There is a trade off there. Of course bronco gameplans but not to the degree kwitt or patterson do. Its hard to say for sure from the outside looking in though[/b]



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Unless you've sat in meetings with all three programs, you can't possibly be able to know how much Bronco game plans compared to other coaches. Now you could argue that they have game planned better at times, but to say Bronco doesn't do it is foolish.


Yes, but you can't really argue that byu has been pretty predictable the past few years. (ou as an outlier) That is why we often lose to good teams and beat the teams we should beat. i think sometimes the coaches need to break out a little and be a little more creative. i would say this year that is not really an option given our youth. somebody already mentioned that. right now we are just trying to get the basics down.
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craigoscarson
I think our bowl record speaks for itself. When and if Bronco fields a team worthy of a BCS bowl; we'll be ready.
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Cougy_Monster
craigoscarson wrote:
I think our bowl record speaks for itself. When and if Bronco fields a team worthy of a BCS bowl; we'll be ready.



Bronco is undoubtedly a better post-season coach than Lavell (no disrespect intended to the man that built BYU football).



I bet Crowton would have been a fantastic post-season coach at BYU.....
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redneckjedi
Cougy_Monster wrote:
I think our bowl record speaks for itself. When and if Bronco fields a team worthy of a BCS bowl; we'll be ready.



Bronco is undoubtedly a better post-season coach than Lavell (no disrespect intended to the man that built BYU football).



I bet Crowton would have been a fantastic post-season coach at BYU.....


Yeah, his gameplan for the Liberty Bowl was fantastic... :whistle:
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Lawboy
I think we need to look at a couple of things here that are not being addressed. The first is that the way Bronco handles his team and players on a week to week basis is to emphasize consistent effort and approach to each game. For this reason, opponent is not emphasized so much as execution. Emotion is used in limited ways as the focus is on consistent effort--regardless of the opponent. In this way, Bronco is extremely steady is what he says, how he approaches things and what he expects from his team. They know it, what to expect ,etc.



Now, if you take that to mean that the BYU coaches do not game plan for each opponent based upon what they try to do, and try to use the strengths of the BYU players to try to slow or offset that, I disagree. Game plans are built from week to week for each opponent. Certain core plays remain, but the emphasis on most plays will change from opponent to opponent based upon what the team can do. Look at the SDSU game plan, and how it worked. It was different from any other week his year. But it also worked because the D played its best game since UW, and actually looked like an aggressive unit out there to disrupt and stop the opponent. Bronco game planned his D to stop SDSU and it worked. The D was way different from what was seen in any other game this year, and I expect something similar v. TCU. Same with the O.



Bronco will game plan his opponents from week to week, he just will not use raw emotion as part of that game plan v. one opponent an not another. He leaves that to his players and I do not blame him. If you can't get up for a college game when you have 12 a year, then you have the problem internally.
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