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The erroneous comparisons between Max Hall and Jake Heaps

by hawkwing · 9/21/2010

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Guest
I've seen and heard a lot of people claiming that the difference between Max Hall's performance early in the season during his first starts and Jake Heaps first starts is that Hall was given all the snaps in fall camp, whereas Heaps split snaps during fall camp. That is true, Hall received almost all of the snaps during fall camp before his first starts and Heaps didn't, but to claim that that is the major difference between the success of the two QBs is likely not entirely accurate.



We have to remember that Hall spent a year with Arizona State as a redshirt. While he wasn't learning the BYU playbook at this time, he was getting used to the increased speed and athleticism of NCAA football, after that, he also spent a year at BYU where he wasn't able to play with the team, but did get a whole year of learning the playbook and working with his teammates.



Limiting the reps in practice has definitely hurt both QBs this year, but I don't think a Jake Heaps coming out of fall camp with 100% of the snaps would have yet been on the level of Max Hall when he started; but he would have been further along, which would be nice, and I think Bronco has learned his lesson.
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byufan4ever
I've been trying to find stats for how true freshman QBs have fared. Here's blog from a Michigan fan that has some stats:



http://www.thewolverineblog.com/2009/12/09/tate-forcier-vs-other-freshman-qbs-final-stats/



This shows the best since 2004:



http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=913691



More:



http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Good-luck-with-that-true-freshman-quarterback-M?urn=ncaaf-142594



I think Heaps will be great, but this year will be tough for him. I agree that even if he had been named starter the day he committed that the odds would be against him having a first year like Max Hall.
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BroncoBot
hawkwing wrote:
I've seen and heard a lot of people claiming that the difference between Max Hall's performance early in the season during his first starts and Jake Heaps first starts is that Hall was given all the snaps in fall camp, whereas Heaps split snaps during fall camp. That is true, Hall received almost all of the snaps during fall camp before his first starts and Heaps didn't, but to claim that that is the major difference between the success of the two QBs is likely not entirely accurate.



We have to remember that Hall spent a year with Arizona State as a redshirt. While he wasn't learning the BYU playbook at this time, he was getting used to the increased speed and athleticism of NCAA football, after that, he also spent a year at BYU where he wasn't able to play with the team, but did get a whole year of learning the playbook and working with his teammates.



Limiting the reps in practice has definitely hurt both QBs this year, but I don't think a Jake Heaps coming out of fall camp with 100% of the snaps would have yet been on the level of Max Hall when he started; but he would have been further along, which would be nice, and I think Bronco has learned his lesson.


Didn't hall also run the scout team that year?
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Guest
declocoug wrote:
I've seen and heard a lot of people claiming that the difference between Max Hall's performance early in the season during his first starts and Jake Heaps first starts is that Hall was given all the snaps in fall camp, whereas Heaps split snaps during fall camp. That is true, Hall received almost all of the snaps during fall camp before his first starts and Heaps didn't, but to claim that that is the major difference between the success of the two QBs is likely not entirely accurate.



We have to remember that Hall spent a year with Arizona State as a redshirt. While he wasn't learning the BYU playbook at this time, he was getting used to the increased speed and athleticism of NCAA football, after that, he also spent a year at BYU where he wasn't able to play with the team, but did get a whole year of learning the playbook and working with his teammates.



Limiting the reps in practice has definitely hurt both QBs this year, but I don't think a Jake Heaps coming out of fall camp with 100% of the snaps would have yet been on the level of Max Hall when he started; but he would have been further along, which would be nice, and I think Bronco has learned his lesson.


Didn't hall also run the scout team that year?


Yes, I think he did. If nothing else he was out on the practice field with them every day.
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SpiffCoug
All true, although I think we can agree that whereever Jake might be now, he would certainly be further along if he hadn't split reps during all of fall camp and the first 1/4 of the season. Granted, it might not be much, but I think it might have been enough to make us more comptetitve in the past two games.



Of course, these are all arguments in favor of red-shirting Jake in the first place.
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Y-Town
You also have to remember that Hall came into an entirely different opportunity than Heaps. Hall had the benefit of having Collie, Unga, Vakapuna, among others that were better established talents than what we started with on offensive at the beginning of this season. That makes a huge difference. I wager that if Heaps has the same amount of established talent around him that we would have won at least 1 of those losses if not both.
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jonnylingo
hawkwing wrote:
I've seen and heard a lot of people claiming that the difference between Max Hall's performance early in the season during his first starts and Jake Heaps first starts is that Hall was given all the snaps in fall camp, whereas Heaps split snaps during fall camp. That is true, Hall received almost all of the snaps during fall camp before his first starts and Heaps didn't, but to claim that that is the major difference between the success of the two QBs is likely not entirely accurate.



We have to remember that Hall spent a year with Arizona State as a redshirt. While he wasn't learning the BYU playbook at this time, he was getting used to the increased speed and athleticism of NCAA football, after that, he also spent a year at BYU where he wasn't able to play with the team, but did get a whole year of learning the playbook and working with his teammates.



Limiting the reps in practice has definitely hurt both QBs this year, but I don't think a Jake Heaps coming out of fall camp with 100% of the snaps would have yet been on the level of Max Hall when he started; but he would have been further along, which would be nice, and I think Bronco has learned his lesson.


I think your claim that this comparison is erroneous is just as erroneous as what you are claiming is erroneous is :D It makes me think of napoleon dynamite when he says "you can't know that". You really can't but it makes sense. As Kitic points out heaps would surely be further a long. of course he would. he would have what is it three weeks of spring camp reps and all of fall camp reps under his belt before he even played in one game. That would surely have progressed him a long. I also think that jake is probably a years worth a head of most red shirt freshman simply from his dedication and training prior to coming to byu. so it may be erroneous but you can't know that and i think the reasoning makes the case that it may actually be true.



We will see how jake does in three to four weeks after getting the bulk of reps. Then we will have a better idea if what i am saying is erroneous or not.



Its missing the point anyway. Bronco got it right when transitioning to Max. He probably got it wrong when transitioning to Heaps. If he was going to end up going with heaps anyway, he might as well put him in the best position possible to succeed. he basically started and played the whole third game and played 'half the first two.' if you were going to play him in the first game then get him ready the way he got max ready. Max hit the ground running and I think Jake would have hit the ground running as well had he been put in the position max was put in. But I see how you think that is erroneous. I just don't think you can say its erroneous because its not something you can know as wisely pointed out by napolean dynamite.
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jonnylingo
Y-Town wrote:
You also have to remember that Hall came into an entirely different opportunity than Heaps. Hall had the benefit of having Collie, Unga, Vakapuna, among others that were better established talents than what we started with on offensive at the beginning of this season. That makes a huge difference. I wager that if Heaps has the same amount of established talent around him that we would have won at least 1 of those losses if not both.


I tend to agree with you. In fact had bronco done this right off the bat even with who we have the air force or fsu games oculd have gone completely different. We will never know, but I would suggest that if our offense starts clicking in the next few weeks and begins putting up 30 points a game or more that it is a safe assumption.
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Mars
kitic77 wrote:
Of course, these are all arguments in favor of red-shirting Jake in the first place.

The argument against, of course, was actually watching Riley Nelson play QB for BYU in a real, live game for multiple back-to-back series. :sick:
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Guest
Yes, there is no doubt that Heaps would be further along now if he had gotten the majority of the snaps since spring ball, however too many people have been suggesting that it was that fact that had Max Hall ready for his opening, when in fact he had been a college QB for 2 years before he took his first snap in a starting role.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Of course, these are all arguments in favor of red-shirting Jake in the first place.

The argument against, of course, was actually watching Riley Nelson play QB for BYU in a real, live game for multiple back-to-back series. :sick:


Yeah, second-half drives of 6, 17, 12, -13, and 12 yards don't exactly win starting jobs.
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CougarPeasant
So what you are saying is that Hall had the equivalent of an Associate's degree in college football while Heaps has a couple of AP classes under his belt when they both saw the field?



Hall, redshirt sophomore; Heaps, true freshman.



In a perfect world, Heaps would redshirt this season, back up next, then take the reigns, which is how Edwards built QB U back in the day. Unfortunately, Bowers transferred, Lark broke his leg, and Munns just had poor timing. Nelson was a "best option" when it presented itself as a stopgap due to the dearth of experienced QBs in the system when he was added to the fold. (Normally, coaches would look for a JUCO QB to fill the gap, but Nelson was essentially that JUCO QB.)



Heaps will grow quickly with this adversity and BYU will be better than ever once he 'masters' the position.
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Yeah, second-half drives of 6, 17, 12, -13, and 12 yards don't exactly win starting jobs.

Those look like Heaps' stats against FSU.



I'm just glad the "QB controversy", which never should have existed in the 1st place, has been decided for the coaches by fate.



Lark can start getting 10% of the 2nd-stringer snaps now. And fifthqb rejoices!
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craigoscarson
CougarPeasant wrote:
So what you are saying is that Hall had the equivalent of an Associate's degree in college football while Heaps has a couple of AP classes under his belt when they both saw the field?



Hall, redshirt sophomore; Heaps, true freshman.



In a perfect world, Heaps would redshirt this season, back up next, then take the reigns, which is how Edwards built QB U back in the day. Unfortunately, Bowers transferred, Lark broke his leg, and Munns just had poor timing. Nelson was a "best option" when it presented itself as a stopgap due to the dearth of experienced QBs in the system when he was added to the fold. (Normally, coaches would look for a JUCO QB to fill the gap, but Nelson was essentially that JUCO QB.)



Heaps will grow quickly with this adversity and BYU will be better than ever once he 'masters' the position.


^what he said. Some of us predicted a very bumpy road this year before the season even started. Since Heaps ins't going to be redshirted then I can stand a bumpy internship this season to usher in several years of dominance.



My biggest issue right now with the team and it's future, is the potential that the coaching staff burnt Apo and Holts redshirt seasons. I would like to hear how Bronco explains that and what reality is with them. (I have a faint understanding that a single quarter or two in the 1st game might not = loss of redshirt but I'm not positive of that)



The qb position will be fine; just not this year. Heaps will shine at times and he'll look like a freshman at others.
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fifthqb
Mars wrote:
Yeah, second-half drives of 6, 17, 12, -13, and 12 yards don't exactly win starting jobs.

Those look like Heaps' stats against FSU.



I'm just glad the "QB controversy", which never should have existed in the 1st place, has been decided for the coaches by fate.



Lark can start getting 10% of the 2nd-stringer snaps now. And fifthqb rejoices!


I would never rejoice at someone getting injured.... :whistle: ha seriously though I am said to see Riley go down, but I think getting lark the 2nd string reps is going to be a valuable thing for BYU sometime down the road...
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