At what point?

At what point do people stop doubting Nelson? His passing stats last season were pooh-poohed by doubters pointing that they came against scrubs in garbage time and that he would get exposed in camp when he faced better defenses. As he continued to perform well in camp, the naysayers said he would get exposed in game situations with his "wounded ducks" against faster defenses than what BYU put on the field. Now, after last night, the doubters are saying he was lucky and he'll be exposed against FSU and TCU.



Here's the reality: His PER was 168.26. That's better than Max Hall's average last season. Eventually you have to admit that he gets the ball where it needs to be and the offense moves. The excuses and asterisks are wearing thin.



*note--this is not a Heaps v. Nelson post--this is simply a "give-credit-where-credit-is-due" post.

I agree, to the point that I'd say it was a mistake to not redshirt Heaps this year.

I will admit that I was a Riley Nelson skeptic and was curious to see how his skills translated against better competition. Color me convinced, props to Nelson. He played great. He had a couple of throws that made me nervous but he made the ones that counted. His legs and tenacity also played a big role in the victory.



I was also impressed with Heaps. I thought he did very well in his first college game against that particular opponent. Our future at QB is very bright.

I never doubted Nelson wasn't any good. I just wanted Heaps to bring the house down!



I thought both did well, and both would do even better if they were the sole QB, and not coming in every other series.



That being said... I'd like to see how well Nelson does with the deep ball. I don't doubt his arm. I would just like to see it. It would make him a bigger threat than ever, if he could bring the secondary up with his feet, then drop them over their heads when they're expecting him to run.



I love being in this type of situation! We definitely have a back up, and not many schools can rely on theirs! 8)

Nelson played great and is a great athlete. But if BYU finds themselves in a situation where they need to gain big yardage and quickly, he just doesn't quite have the arm you'd want from your QB. It's that simple. Every QB has their weakness, and that's his - and quite frankly it could hurt us in certain SITUATIONS... hence why many want the 2-QB system to be SITUATIONAL.

Nelson did a great job getting BYU into the endzone and keeping us in the game. Heaps also had some great moments. Both will improve. I posted somewhere that Riley has not proven he can throw the deep ball. He hasn't proven he can't either. I don't recall deep ball success from Heaps either. I assume that with uw having experienced players in the secondary but several unproven linebackers maybe deep throws were not in the gameplan. I still believe the coaches know what they are doing and why they are doing it.



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Great Thread Sno. And I'd like to see evidence of Nelson's weak arm. I just don't see it. When I see a l-handed QB roll to his right and feather a 25 yard throw to the back of the endzone I'm sure he can set his feet and get a ball to go far enough to convert a 3 and long. And his throw to Diluigi for the TD was a nice thrown ball on a rope. More than adequate.

note: *I know this isnt' a Heaps vs Nelson thread; but I'm not scouring every one of those to say my peace*



I dont doubt Nelson one bit. In fact I've been calling for a redshirt for Heaps since before he even committed to us. But here we are and he's not being redshirted. I for one said that if Heaps were not going to be redshirted, I could swallow a couple losses that might not have been had Nelson gotten the job to himself. I've said it many times.

People will poo-poo the present, but to me this is about the future. BYU is good enough this season with Heaps and Nelson to go bowling. Next year Heaps will be dramatically better and Nelson should be better too. If we lose 2-3-4 games this season, or even one because Nelson outperformed Heaps and Heaps cost us a game then I'm fine with it. I get it. 2010 will be a decent winning season and we'll be much better by the end of the season than now. I've said many times i could stomach 8-4 this year for the simple reason that this is about the future. Why should the Mtn and MWC get our very best now, let's make this a 1 year long practice so that the day we go down to Austin one year from now, we blow everyones socks off.



2011-2013 will be monsters; and part of that reason will be because Heaps got to grow and learn like this. A redshirt would have been ideal, but this ain't bad either.



I'm willing to bet that down the road, that Heaps will outperform Riley in some of these games. I'm also willing to bet that both quarterbacks will improve on their 3rd down efficiency. It was the 1st game of the season; name me 3 teams that played top 50 competition this week that had great 3rd down efficiency (well except for utah state and hawaii ;) )



Honestly, I can't believe all the dark rain clouds on this forum right now. The 2 qb system was not a failure on saturday. Both players moved the ball against a hyperathletic and well prepared Washington team. In Heaps case, as a true freshman it was his 1st ever experience at doing so. Considering that, they both made the grade.



We won folks; a little less rain please. Enjoy the journey, it's not like what we say on this forum will change what Bronco does.

I just watched the highlights and noticed a couple of things about Nelson. He runs equally well to his right and left. He does have nice touch on the ball. And he does a great job moving around in the pocket on pass plays.



At the same time, Jake Heaps has more zip on his passes than anyone I can remember, and that seems to be a little problem for our receivers. I think he needs to take a little off of some of those shorter passes.



All told, I think we are lucky to have both QBs. I wouldn't be calling for either to be the sole starter yet because both were VERY effective at moving the ball (if not for two drops on Jake's passes there would be two more TD's on the board). I think we will need several games to judge if one is the more appropriate starter than the other, but as Bronco said and as it looked in the opening game, they may go all season this way if they keep playing up to this level.



Honestly, I was expecting two mediocre QBs since neither outshined eachother, but now I understand that we have two GREAT QBs that any team should be :love: to have starting for them. The future is so bright I think I need to put on my :crazy: !

snoscythe wrote:
At what point do people stop doubting Nelson? His passing stats last season were pooh-poohed by doubters pointing that they came against scrubs in garbage time and that he would get exposed in camp when he faced better defenses. As he continued to perform well in camp, the naysayers said he would get exposed in game situations with his "wounded ducks" against faster defenses than what BYU put on the field. Now, after last night, the doubters are saying he was lucky and he'll be exposed against FSU and TCU.



Here's the reality: His PER was 168.26. That's better than Max Hall's average last season. Eventually you have to admit that he gets the ball where it needs to be and the offense moves. The excuses and asterisks are wearing thin.



*note--this is not a Heaps v. Nelson post--this is simply a "give-credit-where-credit-is-due" post.

I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone, I told you so. Not to you sno, but to those who were convinced that Nelson was nothing more than a charity scholarship.



I remember coming away from fall practices saying that Nelson could make every throw required of a BYU QB.

Ok, I can admit, I was a Nelson doubter; but not a hater. The guy's character, wheels, and decision making compensate for his average arm (sorry, i also called out PurpleRiegn on Locker's average arm--which is really about Locker's accuracy than arm strength).

Nelson cannot make all the throws and he knows it. Consider the out pattern to Hoffman to the wide side of the field. He had to throw it so early, not bc of pressure, but bc it is so easily picked if late, short, or floats. Can he make enough throws, probably. His arm strength is probably lower than Max's. But then again Max's arm strength in the NFL will be considered average, AND he made the team!

Further concession for Nelson is, that his arm strength compared to Jake's, and only when compared to Jake's, shows that Jake can--and we all know he will--be needed to go down field when we are coming from behind.

AND since we have a 2QB system, I suppose its only fitting we have 2 simultaneous 2QB threads going on here.

Hawk, anyway to combine the two?

I was and still am a Nelson doubter to a certain extent. Not at his ability to move the ball, not at his ability to run. I disagree with everyone that he can make every throw that we need him to. He cannot make the deep ball throw, and probably won't be asked to. That third and long (to Hoffman, I think) that he had to dive for is very telling. If that ball is well thrown, he can stretch out and get two extra yards, as the defender was playing off a few yards and he ran a quick stop route. But he had to put air under it, and wasn't on target. I am not turning this into a Jake vs. Riley thing either, I am just saying that anyone that thinks he can make all the throws is kidding himself. He can't, plain and simple. There are a few more examples, the loft he needed to put on a wr screen, other throws. Go back and watch ALL of his throws, sure he makes good throws, but there are quite a few floaters and innaccuracy that other defenses will take advantage of. Let's face it, this isn't even the 4th best defense we will face this year. And for SURE not the fastest defense.



Again, I like Riley and I give him props in the gameday thread. I like the spread offense that we run, but that will only last for so long, when teams have gametape to prepare for us.



i do think that I was somewhat right in that the defense got overlooked a little in planning an entirely new offense. They didn't look good at all. Yes they made big plays, but mostly after they had given up big plays. They made an adjustment at half, which was nice to see. All in all, we won. If Nelson's version of the BYU offense will win all our games, then let's roll with it. I don't think it wins us TCU, Utah, Air Force, and I think Riley loses that game last night without a change of pace, and a breather here and there.



Right now both qb's need each other to win. Let's be happy and content with the fact that, for the time being, that is enough.

craigoscarson wrote:
note:



We won folks; a little less rain please. Enjoy the journey, it's not like what we say on this forum will change what Bronco does.

Agreed. I said after the game that we needed Riley's scrappiness to get the W. I don't think Jake gets us the win alone or vice versa so imo it's working well so far. Again people, this is not all about the QB's...we have a real chance to win the conference this year and I for one liked the balanced attack. The option was a machine and Heaps made solid reads downfield. There's nothing to complain about.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I think Riley loses that game last night without a change of pace, and a breather here and there.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The kid goes out and has a PER of 168 and throws for two TDs with the same number of series against the same defense as Heaps, but people still want to sell him short and say he couldn't have won the game.



Yeah, we probably couldn't have won without Heaps talking half of the possessions with a 106 PER. That was the game changer. :roll:



You want to dissect it throw by throw to find his errors, but the fact of the matter is that he was the most effective QB on the field Saturday. Heaps was a nice change of pace, yes, but anyone with an open mind would admit that Nelson was more effective. I don't see how you can honestly argue that if Heaps had rode the bench, Nelson would have lost us the game. Honestly.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I was and still am a Nelson doubter to a certain extent. Not at his ability to move the ball, not at his ability to run. I disagree with everyone that he can make every throw that we need him to. He cannot make the deep ball throw, and probably won't be asked to. That third and long (to Hoffman, I think) that he had to dive for is very telling. If that ball is well thrown, he can stretch out and get two extra yards, as the defender was playing off a few yards and he ran a quick stop route. But he had to put air under it, and wasn't on target. I am not turning this into a Jake vs. Riley thing either, I am just saying that anyone that thinks he can make all the throws is kidding himself. He can't, plain and simple. There are a few more examples, the loft he needed to put on a wr screen, other throws. Go back and watch ALL of his throws, sure he makes good throws, but there are quite a few floaters and innaccuracy that other defenses will take advantage of. Let's face it, this isn't even the 4th best defense we will face this year. And for SURE not the fastest defense.

I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.

hawkwing wrote:
I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.

It was pointed out earlier that Riley had to throw the out to Hoffman earlier than Heaps. You WANT to throw the deep out early, primarily because it is such a long throw. The QB needs to throw the ball before the WR makes the cut to the outside so there isn't time to react by the DB. If you wait too long, that's when you risk the INT. It cuts both ways. If a QB has a super strong arm and thinks they can wait until after the WR has made the cut so they don't have to throw to the spot but now have a target in the WR, INTs can happen just as readily. The DB is reading the WR not the QB. Once they see the cut, they try to step up. If the WR makes the cut but the ball isn't already there, that's when the Db has time to jump the route.

At the same time, yes, jake need to take a little heat off the shorter throws. But who can change their deficit?

I would actually contend that our chances were greater to lose the game if Jake is in the whole time. Whereas if Riley was in for every series our chances were better for a W. But this will not always be the case. And these reps now will play out huge.

BlueisBetter except in your analysis of the D. I think you are way off. The scheme and adjustment---oh AND RESULTS---showed tremendous planning and prep. DO you really think the D was overlooked?

which part of the game are you talking about? the first quarter? A few big plays by one of the top QB's in the country? One of the best running backs in the west--and better than any of ours? Good gravy friend, I hate to see your post-game freak out after we lose a game.

:lol: :lol: There's alot of Neilson dope smokin going on. He played great but so did the true freshmen Heaps which says alot about him and his potental.

With that said, I really like the 2 QB system and think we will have it all year long not because one QB won't show he's the better QB but because they are both good at what they do individually and that will throw teams off and keep teams off balance. They both moved the ball down the field. I think we will get into some situational situations were we see one or the other qb come in during the others rotation for a play or two.

The great thing is we have TWO qb's that can get the job done.

BTW, Neilson can not make all the throws but he knows which one's he can make and is accurate at those. If you disagree go re-watch the game, the floater down the hash to Jacobson that came up way short and the other were he threw across the field to the sideline that seemed to float forever.......... :bug:

I don't think there were too many who doubted that nelson was good. I didn't. I think it was even going into game one and even coming out. it was fun to see them both do so well.



also riley has gotten better. alot have said he has a ceiling he has already reached. i think watching in game one this year proves that wrong. He has improved a lot and that is what kept jake from getting the starting job outright.



jake was amazing for a true freshman. we will see how this plays out. however it does play out nelson will be seeing the field as either the starter or a situational qb for the next two years. my bet is on the latter.



kudos to nelson and heaps for getting us a w. can't wait for this weekend.

hawkwing wrote:

I was and still am a Nelson doubter to a certain extent. Not at his ability to move the ball, not at his ability to run. I disagree with everyone that he can make every throw that we need him to. He cannot make the deep ball throw, and probably won't be asked to. That third and long (to Hoffman, I think) that he had to dive for is very telling. If that ball is well thrown, he can stretch out and get two extra yards, as the defender was playing off a few yards and he ran a quick stop route. But he had to put air under it, and wasn't on target. I am not turning this into a Jake vs. Riley thing either, I am just saying that anyone that thinks he can make all the throws is kidding himself. He can't, plain and simple. There are a few more examples, the loft he needed to put on a wr screen, other throws. Go back and watch ALL of his throws, sure he makes good throws, but there are quite a few floaters and innaccuracy that other defenses will take advantage of. Let's face it, this isn't even the 4th best defense we will face this year. And for SURE not the fastest defense.

I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.

In all fairness, making a throw and getting it there before the db gets there are different things. When a dlineman is coming at you and a receiver hasnt' made their break yet, you have to have enough arm not just to get it there, but get it there in a hurry. This is a must in the pro game and obviously not as much of a priority in the college game; however, the better competition you play, the more important it becomes. I have a feeling that by the Texas game next year that Jake will be the more productive QB in the face of what is a poor mans NFL team.



You certainly have seen a lot more of Riley than I have (lucky dog) but there's a reason that college coaches are raving about what they see from Heaps (calhoun said he's a slam dunk 1st round pick and calhoun has NFL history) Heaps has tremendous footwork vision and the arm to zip a ball where it needs to be. He just needs to be coached up.



I wanted a redshirt, I prayed for a redshirt, but it didn't happen; and because it didn't happen, I think that Heaps has to get snaps in every game from here on out. He's the present and the future. His ceiling is much much higher than Riley's. It's a real blessing to have a guy with Riley and QBs with their egos in check that can make this work. (I assure you that Drew Miller and Bret Engemann would have never swallowed their pride for it)



One thing that hasnt' been mentioned since the Washington game, is that Heaps is a draw. He sells tickets (not that we need to sell them in Provo, that's a given) and interests sports writers and tv audiences; so does the QB2, which is interesting for anyone that loves college football. More importantly, Heaps and his family are master recruiters. Ryker Mathews went bowling and hung out with Jake, eats dinner at the Heaps family home, etc. etc. and next thing you know he's a Coug. Let's cut Jake a little slack, he's a true freshman with amazing tools for his age and a support group that is helping BYU a great deal.

Instead of waiting for Riley to go down with injury or get exposed when coordinators start bringing up their safeties and playing tighter man with the corners; we have Heaps to keep them honest; and we have Heaps getting invaluable experience for the future.



Not only is sports nation watching, but they'll consider him the starter in the future when preseason polls come out etc. There will not be a beck to hall to nelson to heaps dropoff in the preseason polls. We all know that BYU, Boise and TCU have battled those polls, simply because in order to get to a national championship game you need a good head start and the polls offer that. (I also hate them and hate that it's the case, but we didnt' make the rules, we just have to play by em)



Again, I've made no bones about it. I wanted a redshirt for Heaps. He didn't get it so we concentrate on the pros. No use ragging on the kid or wishing the bench for him; he brings too much to this program for that. (same reason I'm not going to spend months on end complaining about the WCC in hoops, there is enough good and exciting news that bitching just doesn't make any sense and it certainly doesn't elevate BYU)



Heaps is good for BYU and like Calhoun said, "he's a slam dunk 1st round pick." 1st round picks get the attention of future recruits and more 1st round picks. Let's handle our golden boy accordingly.