CougarCorner
Sign in
Archived Topic

The pros --

by craigoscarson · 9/1/2010

Advertisement
C
craigoscarson
Okay, I've already stated and shown that the WCC is a significant RPI downgrade from the MWC. I dont' like that; but lets talk the pros since we now have to deal with what we have.



There are some plusses to the WCC and independence.



Having ESPN = we don't have the Mtn.... big plus there



ESPN is supposedly going to broker ooc matchups for us. (supposedly)



ESPN will provide exposure for us; exposure cannot be overstated



While the WCC is a much worse basketball conference than the MWC, the perception is that it isn't; in fact many on espn and on this forum have suggested that it's a better hoops conference; that's not surprising; many seem to think it is (it isnt' but let's just bank on the perception thing). That perception might help us with recruiting. I guess we'll see with dermarcus harrison and brett kingma.



We dont' play in the UNLV postseason invitational anymore.



We don't have to play teams that hate us more than they like their own team. The WCC schools are small arena, religiously affiliated schools that are overjoyed to have us. BYU will not be getting the Wyoming style welcome; in fact the average WCC home attendance is less than 3000. BYU fans might outnumber the WCC fans at their own games.; particularly because of where these schools are and that many fans on those areas haven't been close to BYU games (portland for example)



This is all being done for easier and quicker admission to the Big 12. That is the pot at the end of the rainbow for BYU hoops. In fact I may never leave Kansas City when and if BYU gets admission to the Big 12.



All in all, this comes down to recruiting and tourney eligibility. If the WCC can give us enough competition and ESPN can help broker some favorable matchups at the Marriott Center (not in salt lake, etc. etc. etc.) then our RPI might not take a massive hit. If we end up having to do a ton of 2 for 1s (away-home-aways) to play good teams in the non-con, then BYU hoops just got crapped on. ESPN has to help us or BYU hoops gets hurt bad there.



I'll say it again.....This is all being done for easier and quicker admission to the Big 12. That is the pot at the end of the rainbow for BYU hoops. BYU hoops in the Big 12 would beat any of my wildest dreams. I would give either of my kidneys to see BYU beat Kansas in Allen fieldhouse.
M
Mars


The faster BYU learns how to adapt to a very successful Gonzaga model, the better.



If we can do that, we'll be just fine. GU's RPI is better than ours almost every year.
S
scott715
I am wondering if there will be seats when we go on the road? Small arenas could be a problem. I am 3 hours from Spokane and Portland. I will have to depend on Cougar Club, I guess, to get tickets.
C
craigoscarson
scott715 wrote:
I am wondering if there will be seats when we go on the road? Small arenas could be a problem. I am 3 hours from Spokane and Portland. I will have to depend on Cougar Club, I guess, to get tickets.


They might just find a way to play some of those games at bigger arenas in those same towns. Money talks and BYU fans will fill those seats.



The arenas themselves look like nothing more than a nice high school court with a few extra seats. They dont' look particularly nice on television. BYU and ESPN might have some leverage to broker a nice venue to play at some of those schools.
G
Gunk
craigoscarson wrote:
I am wondering if there will be seats when we go on the road? Small arenas could be a problem. I am 3 hours from Spokane and Portland. I will have to depend on Cougar Club, I guess, to get tickets.


They might just find a way to play some of those games at bigger arenas in those same towns. Money talks and BYU fans will fill those seats.



The arenas themselves look like nothing more than a nice high school court with a few extra seats. They dont' look particularly nice on television. BYU and ESPN might have some leverage to broker a nice venue to play at some of those schools.


Wouldn't be surprised if Gonzaga hosted their game against BYU at a bigger arena. Between Gonzaga fans and all the BYU fans in Washington they should be able to draw quite the crowd. Only question now is whether there is an arena big enough to hold them.
Advertisement
S
scott715
I think you would have to go to Pullman or Seattle. I don't expect it happening.
C
CougarClaw
BYU is publically saying that the WCC is not a stepping stone and "gave assurances" to that effect.



I think it's pretty amazing how much RPI's of both conferences swing with BYU moving over, but the new MWAC [ :lol: ] conference still is a tad stronger.



I think I'm most worried about how the basketball program feels about the step down because of football. How does that affect Kingma's decision? What is Dave Rose going to think next time a Houston comes looking for a coach. We've recently experienced a Nirvana of BYU sports in football and Basketball. I hope that doesn't end.
B
BroncoBot
I thought Dave rose was saying he would be fine with the WCC. Since his teams have had a heck of a time at away games in the MWC, maybe the grass is looking greener in the WCC.
S
Schmoe
WCC with BYU: 2-3 teams to the dance, MWC without BYU: 2-3 teams to the dance. Meh.
M
Mars
Schmoe wrote:
WCC with BYU: 2-3 teams to the dance, MWC without BYU: 1-3 teams to the dance. Meh.

Fixed it for you.
Advertisement
S
SpiffCoug
anyone know what the MWC's RPI is without both Utah and BYU?
B
bigbluepuma
kitic77 wrote:
anyone know what the MWC's RPI is without both Utah and BYU?


The loss from losing BYU is balanced by the gain from getting rid of :utard: . :D :D
S
smcfan2008
craigoscarson wrote:



While the WCC is a much worse basketball conference than the MWC, the perception is that it isn't; in fact many on espn and on this forum have suggested that it's a better hoops conference; that's not surprising; many seem to think it is (it isnt' but let's just bank on the perception thing). That perception might help us with recruiting. I guess we'll see with dermarcus harrison and brett kingma.


Based upon what standard?



How has the MWC done in the NCAA Tournament in the last 10 years? Compare that with how the WCC has fared.



You're right perception cannot be overstated. For instance, many MWC fans tout SDSU as a power team. How many Tournament games have they won in the last 5 years? Decade? Half century? They have NEVER won a single NCAA Tournament game.



Here's a breakdown of the Mountain West Conference vs. The West Coast Conference victories tallied in the last 10 seasons. Also just for fun the Tournament victories of the New MWC additions ***Note with the departure of Utah and BYU, the remaining core members of the conference only have 5 Tournament games in the last decade.



WCC NCAA Tournament victories since 2000-2001

==========================================

Gonzaga:

(2010:Zags defeated Florida State)(2009:Zags beat Akron, Zags beat WKU) (2006:Zags defeated Xavier, Zags defeated Indiana) (2005:Zags defeated Winthrop) (2004: Zags defeated Valparaiso) (2003:Zags defeated cincinati) (2001:Zags defeated Virginia, Zags defeated Indiana State)





Saint Mary's:

(2010: SMC defeated Richmond, SMC defeated Villanova)



San Diego:

(2008: SD defeated UConn)

______________________________________

13 NCAA Tournament victories





MWC NCAA Tournament victories since 2000-2001

==========================================

BYU:

(2010:defeated Florida)



New Mexico:

(2010:NM deated montana)





UNLV:

(2008:UNLV defeated kent state) (2007:UNLV defeated Georgia Tech, UNLV defeated Wisconsin)





Wyoming:

(2002: Defeated Gonzaga)



Utah:

(2005: Utah defeated Utep, utah defeated oklahoma) (2003: utah defeated oregon)

______________________________



9 NCAA Tourney victories since 2000-2001



New WMC member's victories since 2000-2001

=========================================

Nevada:

(2007: NV defeated Creighton) (2005:NV defeated Texas) (2004: NV defeated Michigan State, NV defeated Gonzaga)



Fresno State:

(2001:defeated Cal)

_____________________________________________



5 Tourney victories





***New WCC( BYU)=14 Tournament victories since 2000-2001



***New MWC( NV FSU BSU-Utah-BYU)=10 Tourney victories since 2000-2001
C
craigoscarson
Based upon what standard?


Based on the RPI. The WCC has been 4-5 notches below the MWC the last 3 years. Granted they have had success with 2 teams in the NCAAs, but Gonzaga and SMC do not a hoops conference make, and post season play doesn't improve your RPI during the season.



Butler was 30 seconds from the national championship; does that make the Horizon league a better home?



This thread was about the pros of joining the WCC and there are pros; but statistically the WCC is not better than the MWC.



http://www.realtimerpi.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Also take away San Franciscos old school history and Loyolas Hank Gathers/Bo Kimble years; the WCC doesn't have much basketball cache outside of this decade. I'm not about to defend the MWC now, but I can't think of a single WCC successful pro off the top of my head. BYU, UNLV, New Mexico are basketball powers that go back decades and fill large basketball arenas.



Wehave the WCC now and we're going to make the best of it, but BYU have reasons to concern themselves with the credibility of the WCC as a hoops power. A good but not great conference that does bring ESPN with it, a history of Gonzaga this decade playing great ball, and like i said, more respect than the RPI woudl dictate. Which is fine with me, too hell with the MWC; but BYU has battled and battled the RPI in order to make up for the NCAAs bias against them and thus we need RPI to justify better seeds than what we've gotten in the past.



Rank Conference Avg. RPI Avg. SOS SOS Rank Teams

1 Big 12 0.5860 0.5770 2 12

2 Big East 0.5802 0.5786 1 16

3 Atlantic Coast 0.5751 0.5599 4 12

4 Southeastern 0.5601 0.5604 3 12

5 Big Ten 0.5507 0.5509 5 11

6 Mountain West 0.5421 0.5398 8 9

7 Atlantic 10 0.5417 0.5412 7 14

8 Pacific-10 0.5384 0.5446 6 10

9 Missouri Valley 0.5367 0.5281 9 10

10 Western Athletic 0.5233 0.5198 10 9



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



11 Conference USA 0.5170 0.5186 11 12

12 Colonial Athletic 0.5075 0.5106 12 12

13 West Coast 0.5066 0.5104 13 8

14 Horizon League 0.5061 0.5062 14 10
S
smcfan2008
craigoscarson wrote:
Based upon what standard?


Based on the RPI. The WCC has been 4-5 notches below the MWC the last 3 years. Granted they have had success with 2 teams in the NCAAs, but Gonzaga and SMC do not a hoops conference make, and post season play doesn't improve your RPI during the season.



Butler was 30 seconds from the national championship; does that make the Horizon league a better home?



This thread was about the pros of joining the WCC and there are pros; but statistically the WCC is not better than the MWC.



http://www.realtimerpi.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Also take away San Franciscos old school history and Loyolas Hank Gathers/Bo Kimble years; the WCC doesn't have much basketball cache outside of this decade. I'm not about to defend the MWC now, but I can't think of a single WCC successful pro off the top of my head. BYU, UNLV, New Mexico are basketball powers that go back decades and fill large basketball arenas.



Wehave the WCC now and we're going to make the best of it, but BYU have reasons to concern themselves with the credibility of the WCC as a hoops power.



Rank Conference Avg. RPI Avg. SOS SOS Rank Teams

1 Big 12 0.5860 0.5770 2 12

2 Big East 0.5802 0.5786 1 16

3 Atlantic Coast 0.5751 0.5599 4 12

4 Southeastern 0.5601 0.5604 3 12

5 Big Ten 0.5507 0.5509 5 11

6 Mountain West 0.5421 0.5398 8 9

7 Atlantic 10 0.5417 0.5412 7 14

8 Pacific-10 0.5384 0.5446 6 10

9 Missouri Valley 0.5367 0.5281 9 10

10 Western Athletic 0.5233 0.5198 10 9



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



11 Conference USA 0.5170 0.5186 11 12

12 Colonial Athletic 0.5075 0.5106 12 12

13 West Coast 0.5066 0.5104 13 8

14 Horizon League 0.5061 0.5062 14 10


So you dismiss USF's National Titles and LMU's elite teams because they're from a long time ago, but then you espouse MWC teams having storied histories going back decades? UNLV's title is 20 years old. Why is tradition relevant for the MWC, but not the WCC?



Since when did RPI trump post season success?! Favorable RPI ratings and no success in the post season equates to an overrated team. Also any reasonable person would concede that wins in the NCAA Tournament put teams in favorable positions to schedule teams with better win percentages, thus enhancing their RPI? If I'm not mistaken Gonzaga's national profile is a direct result of their tournament success. Winning in the post season allowed them to schedule and beat high caliber opponents on a regular basis.



Butler almost won a championship? There's winning and there's losing. I don't see how delving into fantasy and what could've been enhances this debate.



Not a single successful pro?



Notable NBA Players:

Steve Nash (SCU)

John Stockton (Gonzaga)

Dennis Johnson, 3 rings and an NBA MVP (Pepperdine)

K.C. Jones, NBA Hall of Famer (USF)

Bill Russel NBA Hall of Famer (USF)

Bill Cartwright (USF)

Tom Meschery, NBA all-star (Saint Mary's)

Austin Daye, drafted 15th overall in the 2009 NBA Draft by the Detroit Pistons (Gonzaga)

Ronny Turiaf, Knicks (Gonzaga)

Doug Christie NBA (Pepperdine)



Notable NBA Head Coaches:

Rick Adelmen(Head Coach of the Rockets) (LMU)

Bernie Bickerstaff(currently in an assistant role) (SD)

Bill Cartwright (USF)

Bill Russell (USF)

Mike Brown (Head Coach of the Cavs from 05-10)

Eric Musselman (former golden state, Kings head coach, currently head coach of the Reno Bighorns in the D-League)

Kurt Rambis(current Timberwolves Head Coach) (SCU)
Advertisement
S
smcfan2008
craigoscarson wrote:

Wehave the WCC now and we're going to make the best of it, but BYU have reasons to concern themselves with the credibility of the WCC as a hoops power. A good but not great conference that does bring ESPN with it, a history of Gonzaga this decade playing great ball, and like i said, more respect than the RPI woudl dictate. Which is fine with me, too hell with the MWC; but BYU has battled and battled the RPI in order to make up for the NCAAs bias against them and thus we need RPI to justify better seeds than what we've gotten in the past.


I hear you about the seeding dilemma, the WCC's no stranger to that. I realize this thread is about the pros of BYU joining the WCC. All I'm trying to say is that the WCC is not a steep drop off from the old Mountain West, and when you take away Utah and BYU, it's easily neck and neck. ESPN loves this. They don't give two hoots about us as individual teams (aside from maybe Gonzaga) but 3 religious, West Coast semi-underdogs going into the tournament would make for some great headlines.(not to discount some of the sleepers currently in the WCC). The RPI from the last few years is what it is. I just feel that our focus should be on winning as many games as possible and the RPI will follow.
C
craigoscarson
smcfan2008 wrote:

Wehave the WCC now and we're going to make the best of it, but BYU have reasons to concern themselves with the credibility of the WCC as a hoops power. A good but not great conference that does bring ESPN with it, a history of Gonzaga this decade playing great ball, and like i said, more respect than the RPI woudl dictate. Which is fine with me, too hell with the MWC; but BYU has battled and battled the RPI in order to make up for the NCAAs bias against them and thus we need RPI to justify better seeds than what we've gotten in the past.


I hear you about the seeding dilemma, the WCC's no stranger to that. I realize this thread is about the pros of BYU joining the WCC. All I'm trying to say is that the WCC is not a steep drop off from the old Mountain West, and when you take away Utah and BYU, it's easily neck and neck. ESPN loves this. They don't give two hoots about us as individual teams (aside from maybe Gonzaga) but 3 religious, West Coast semi-underdogs going into the tournament would make for some great headlines.(not to discount some of the sleepers currently in the WCC). The RPI from the last few years is what it is. I just feel that our focus should be on winning as many games as possible and the RPI will follow.


The trick is how to elevate the bottom feeders to viability. Something BYU football finally got fed up with. The WCC currently has some scary bad bottom feeders; though a few of the MWC conf teams are right there with them.
M
Mars
smcfan2008 wrote:
WCC NCAA Tournament victories since 2000-2001

==========================================

Gonzaga: (2010:Zags defeated Florida State)(2009:Zags beat Akron, Zags beat WKU) (2006:Zags defeated Xavier, Zags defeated Indiana) (2005:Zags defeated Winthrop) (2004: Zags defeated Valparaiso) (2003:Zags defeated cincinati) (2001:Zags defeated Virginia, Zags defeated Indiana State)



Saint Mary's: (2010: SMC defeated Richmond, SMC defeated Villanova)



San Diego: (2008: SD defeated UConn)

______________________________________

13 NCAA Tournament victories





MWC NCAA Tournament victories since 2000-2001

==========================================

BYU: (2010:defeated Florida)



New Mexico: (2010:NM deated montana)



UNLV: (2008:UNLV defeated kent state) (2007:UNLV defeated Georgia Tech, UNLV defeated Wisconsin)



Wyoming: (2002: Defeated Gonzaga)



Utah: (2005: Utah defeated Utep, utah defeated oklahoma) (2003: utah defeated oregon)

______________________________

9 NCAA Tourney victories since 2000-2001





New WMC member's victories since 2000-2001

=========================================

Nevada: (2007: NV defeated Creighton) (2005:NV defeated Texas) (2004: NV defeated Michigan State, NV defeated Gonzaga)



Fresno State: (2001:defeated Cal)

_____________________________________________

5 Tourney victories





***New WCC( BYU)=14 Tournament victories since 2000-2001

***New MWC( NV FSU BSU-Utah-BYU)=10 Tourney victories since 2000-2001

Great post!



Thanks for that.
W
Wolverine
[quote="craigoscarson"][quote] but I can't think of a single WCC successful pro off the top of my head.

C'mon Craigo...we've come to expect much more out of you over the years ;) I must admit that this is a pretty impressive list that smcfan2008 has compiled:

Notable NBA Players:

Steve Nash (SCU)

John Stockton (Gonzaga)

Dennis Johnson, 3 rings and an NBA MVP (Pepperdine)

K.C. Jones, NBA Hall of Famer (USF)

Bill Russel NBA Hall of Famer (USF)

Bill Cartwright (USF)

Tom Meschery, NBA all-star (Saint Mary's)

Austin Daye, drafted 15th overall in the 2009 NBA Draft by the Detroit Pistons (Gonzaga)

Ronny Turiaf, Knicks (Gonzaga)

Doug Christie NBA (Pepperdine)



Notable NBA Head Coaches:

Rick Adelmen(Head Coach of the Rockets) (LMU)

Bernie Bickerstaff(currently in an assistant role) (SD)

Bill Cartwright (USF)

Bill Russell (USF)

Mike Brown (Head Coach of the Cavs from 05-10)

Eric Musselman (former golden state, Kings head coach, currently head coach of the Reno Bighorns in the D-League)

Kurt Rambis(current Timberwolves Head Coach) (SCU)



I for one am excited for the move to Independence in FB and look forward to our move to the WCC, but at the same time will miss games such as the one against NM that I saw last year in the MC. I believe our B-ball program will continue to prosper and won't slide one bit with the move to the WCC. BTW, welcome to the board smcfan2008 and any and all other WCC fans. GO COUGARS!
S
scott715
If the MWC was smart the top 3 will schedule home and away games with BYU each year (as if we were still in the confeence). We could get a nice SOS in the WCC doing this. That would be 11 top 50 games.
Page 1 of 2
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.