QB Battle Day 5

As was stated elsewhere, first day of pads was ruled by the defense. Here are the day's and updated stats:



Day 5 Stats:

Heaps: 2-7-1-53, 0 TD, 63.60 rating, 28.6%complete; 1 TD drive

Nelson: 2-6-0-19, 1 TD, 114.93 rating, 33.3% complete, 1 TD drive, 2 FG drives



Fall Camp Stats:

Heaps: 32-51-2-361, 5 TDs, 146.71 rating, 62.7% complete, 7 TD drives, 1 FG drive

Nelson: 23-41-0-295, 6 TDs, 164.83 rating, 56.1% complete, 7 TD drives, 4 FG drives



I gave both the scoring and passing edges to Riley. Riley now has three wins in the scoring and passing edges and Jake has two of each.



If I were starting a QB tomorrow if the UW game was held, I'd be starting Riley.



It looks like Riley had one series each against the ones and threes, while Jake had two series against the twos. I don't see data yet what they went up against in the non-blue zone situations.

Yikes! Hopefully they get used to the pads quickly.

I wonder who got the interception. I'm really really excited about our defense this year. We have a ton of speed and talent.

hepas got the interception. but apparently one of nelson's passes should have been intercepted had jorgenson not messed it up. nelson also missed a wide open jacobsen in the endzone.



i don't give the passing edge to nelson from the reports that I read. jakes is the better passer. Nelson is the better runner. You can't argue those points wether you look at stats or not. the argument should be about who gets us in the endzone most consistently.



that is still up i the air and that is why there is a battle going on.

Short_Change wrote:
I wonder who got the interception. I'm really really excited about our defense this year. We have a ton of speed and talent.

It was Robbie Buckner (stepped in front of B.J. Peterson at the goal line)

To actually say 1 guy has any edge so far is wrong. And to say either guy won today is wrong. I'd call it a draw today as both struggled. Bronco called it a draw today, and I agree with him. I'd call it 1 win each and 3 draws. Both guys separated themselves 1 time only, and the rest was pretty equal. Including today, when the defense controlled things.

Look, I'm basing evaluations here on Cougar Corner solely on the stats we are given. Today, although both samples were small, Riley was more efficient and more accurate. He threw a TD, Jake didn't. He didn't throw an INT, Jake did. Riley led three scoring "drives," (I say drives, because two scores came in blue zone situations) Jake led one.



So no, I don't think it's wrong to say that Riley won both the scoring edge and passing edge today.



This has been one of my big complaints about the QB battle thus far. The Heaps side doesn't seem to want to admit that 1) the battle is closer than they want to think it is and that 2) Riley isn't nearly as bad as they want to think he is.



Did both QBs struggle today? Sure did. But Jake clearly struggled more. At least based on the objective stats we have before us.

Lawboy wrote:
To actually say 1 guy has any edge so far is wrong. And to say either guy won today is wrong. I'd call it a draw today as both struggled. Bronco called it a draw today, and I agree with him. I'd call it 1 win each and 3 draws. Both guys separated themselves 1 time only, and the rest was pretty equal. Including today, when the defense controlled things.

i agree 100 percent. This is a draw all together right now. I think Kitic's formula, as creative as it is, is short-sighted and doesn't take into account a lot of important factors.



Anybody being objective I think from what I have read and heard would be hard pressed to say anybody is in the lead right now. i believe bronco when he says status quo so far.



i still think you go with heaps. its harder to gameplan for heaps. Heaps has running backs to run for him. if nelson is no good at deap balls, the safeties can cheat all day and stop our running game. we are forced to be one dimensional with him. that is what happened to him at usu. his first game he came in and beat freson state for a big upset. then lost like 5 or 6 in a row after teams figure out he can run but couldn't really throw. while i think he can throw i dont' think he throws particularly well. not well enough to keep defenses honest.



jake can throw and with our receivers and oline protecting him he could be very dangerous as far as the deep ball goes. as long as our running backs can put it together starting jake will incrase our changes of winning. if our runningbacks stink which allows them to focus more on the pass, then its a wash. it looks like running back is really key this year. losing harvey was a big deal.

jonnylingo wrote:

i still think you go with heaps. its harder to gameplan for heaps. Heaps has running backs to run for him. if nelson is no good at deap balls, the safeties can cheat all day and stop our running game. we are forced to be one dimensional with him. that is what happened to him at usu. his first game he came in and beat freson state for a big upset. then lost like 5 or 6 in a row after teams figure out he can run but couldn't really throw. while i think he can throw i dont' think he throws particularly well. not well enough to keep defenses honest.



jake can throw and with our receivers and oline protecting him he could be very dangerous as far as the deep ball goes. as long as our running backs can put it together starting jake will incrase our changes of winning. if our runningbacks stink which allows them to focus more on the pass, then its a wash. it looks like running back is really key this year. losing harvey was a big deal.

Yep, because we all know the 2005 talent Riley had helping him at Utah State is just as good as what Riley will have helping him here at BYU in 2010. Riley is a completely one dimensional player and if BYU coaches play him, they are going to develop an offensive gameplan to make sure Riley either 1) stays one dimensional or 2) has to make plays that are against his strengths.



And we all know that if Riley starts there is no way our running backs will be able to put it together so by starting Riley or chances of winning must decrease.



Face it, the battle is closer than you think and want it to be.

Heaps camp? Funny how the Nelson backers throw that around so easily. I put the battle at all square. I think that is about as objective as it can get. The overall stats back it up, as for reports from media observes, and from Bronco's own mouth.



And I said before, I expect Nelson to start v. UW and Heaps to play and eventually win the job. But just want to win. don;t care who plays QB for BYU so long as we lead at the final whistle. And nice to see the O struggle first day in pads. Love seeing a BYU D slap the O around for a change.

kitic77 wrote:

i still think you go with heaps. its harder to gameplan for heaps. Heaps has running backs to run for him. if nelson is no good at deap balls, the safeties can cheat all day and stop our running game. we are forced to be one dimensional with him. that is what happened to him at usu. his first game he came in and beat freson state for a big upset. then lost like 5 or 6 in a row after teams figure out he can run but couldn't really throw. while i think he can throw i dont' think he throws particularly well. not well enough to keep defenses honest.



jake can throw and with our receivers and oline protecting him he could be very dangerous as far as the deep ball goes. as long as our running backs can put it together starting jake will incrase our changes of winning. if our runningbacks stink which allows them to focus more on the pass, then its a wash. it looks like running back is really key this year. losing harvey was a big deal.

Yep, because we all know the 2005 talent Riley had helping him at Utah State is just as good as what Riley will have helping him here at BYU in 2010. Riley is a completely one dimensional player and if BYU coaches play him, they are going to develop an offensive gameplan to make sure Riley either 1) stays one dimensional or 2) has to make plays that are against his strengths.



And we all know that if Riley starts there is no way our running backs will be able to put it together so by starting Riley or chances of winning must decrease.



Face it, the battle is closer than you think and want it to be.

Chill buddy. Your the one giving the edge to someone. If you didn't take my comments out of context and left this part in when you cut and pasted

Anybody being objective I think from what I have read and heard would be hard pressed to say anybody is in the lead right now. i believe bronco when he says status quo so far.

, you would realize that maybe I am the one actually that realizes it is close and you are the one giving an edge to somebody. I flat out stated that it s even, no edge.



It is a fact that Riley is not a great passer. It is a fact that Jake is. If our running backs and oline establish a good running game, then playing the person who is a great passer would help us more then that person whose strength is more running. just an opinion man.



maybe you should face it, and realize that I never said it was not close nor do i care greatly. In fact the fact that nelson is keeping it close has suprised me. I thought jake would pull away but he hasn't. you nelson guys are really over sensitive. Its wierd.

jonnylingo wrote:

To actually say 1 guy has any edge so far is wrong. And to say either guy won today is wrong. I'd call it a draw today as both struggled. Bronco called it a draw today, and I agree with him. I'd call it 1 win each and 3 draws. Both guys separated themselves 1 time only, and the rest was pretty equal. Including today, when the defense controlled things.

i agree 100 percent. This is a draw all together right now. I think Kitic's formula, as creative as it is, is short-sighted and doesn't take into account a lot of important factors.



Anybody being objective I think from what I have read and heard would be hard pressed to say anybody is in the lead right now. i believe bronco when he says status quo so far.

Here's my "formula." I take the stats are given and report them. I give the scoring edge to the QB who leads the offense to the most scores. Riley has led the team to more scores in three of the five days. I give the passing edge to the QB with the higher passer rating - since it tells us who is moving the ball more efficiently through the air.



I wish there were more "important factors" I could take into account. And I do think the battle is extremely even and I think the coaches do too. That's why yesterday I said Heaps would start because he'd been the more consistent through camp. But because it is so even, and Riley had the better day, I changed that to Riley. I wouldn't be surprised to see it change several more times throughout the rest of camp.

Lawboy wrote:
Heaps camp? Funny how the Nelson backers throw that around so easily. I put the battle at all square. I think that is about as objective as it can get. The overall stats back it up, as for reports from media observes, and from Bronco's own mouth.



And I said before, I expect Nelson to start v. UW and Heaps to play and eventually win the job. But just want to win. don;t care who plays QB for BYU so long as we lead at the final whistle. And nice to see the O struggle first day in pads. Love seeing a BYU D slap the O around for a change.

Not a Nelson backer but the reason the "heaps camp" gets thrown around like it does is because when Nelson has the better day, the message boards are a graveyard and when Heaps has the better day, the message boards fill up with people saying the race is over.



Plus anyone that posts comments that Nelson could lead BYU to a MWC championship as a starter gets labled a "Nelson supporter".

jonnylingo wrote:

jonnylingo wrote:

i still think you go with heaps. its harder to gameplan for heaps. Heaps has running backs to run for him. if nelson is no good at deap balls, the safeties can cheat all day and stop our running game. we are forced to be one dimensional with him. that is what happened to him at usu. his first game he came in and beat freson state for a big upset. then lost like 5 or 6 in a row after teams figure out he can run but couldn't really throw. while i think he can throw i dont' think he throws particularly well. not well enough to keep defenses honest.



jake can throw and with our receivers and oline protecting him he could be very dangerous as far as the deep ball goes. as long as our running backs can put it together starting jake will incrase our changes of winning. if our runningbacks stink which allows them to focus more on the pass, then its a wash. it looks like running back is really key this year. losing harvey was a big deal.

Yep, because we all know the 2005 talent Riley had helping him at Utah State is just as good as what Riley will have helping him here at BYU in 2010. Riley is a completely one dimensional player and if BYU coaches play him, they are going to develop an offensive gameplan to make sure Riley either 1) stays one dimensional or 2) has to make plays that are against his strengths.



And we all know that if Riley starts there is no way our running backs will be able to put it together so by starting Riley or chances of winning must decrease.



Face it, the battle is closer than you think and want it to be.

Chill buddy. Your the one giving the edge to someone. If you didn't take my comments out of context and left this part in when you cut and pasted

Anybody being objective I think from what I have read and heard would be hard pressed to say anybody is in the lead right now. i believe bronco when he says status quo so far.

, you would realize that maybe I am the one actually that realizes it is close and you are the one giving an edge to somebody. I flat out stated that it s even, no edge.



It is a fact that Riley is not a great passer. It is a fact that Jake is. If our running backs and oline establish a good running game, then playing the person who is a great passer would help us more then that person whose strength is more running. just an opinion man.



maybe you should face it, and realize that I never said it was not close nor do i care greatly. In fact the fact that nelson is keeping it close has suprised me. I thought jake would pull away but he hasn't. you nelson guys are really over sensitive. Its wierd.

And I gave the edge to Jake yesterday. I'll do my best to chill. But the facts/stats thus far through fall camp simply don't suggest that Riley "is not a great passer" or that "it is a fact that Jake is." The facts thus far suggest that Riley is the more efficient passer and that battle is very easy. I think a good running game is going to help whomever plays quarterback.

Kitc,



Don't get so emotional. I was making a rational point. Whether its valid or not is up for debate. Your sarcastic and emotionally charged responses suggest that it is you that is emotionally invested in who starts not me. While I do acknowledge that it is my opinion that Heaps should start for the reasons I have stated, I am still reasonable to acknowledge that things are even.

kitic77 wrote:

kitic77 wrote:

i still think you go with heaps. its harder to gameplan for heaps. Heaps has running backs to run for him. if nelson is no good at deap balls, the safeties can cheat all day and stop our running game. we are forced to be one dimensional with him. that is what happened to him at usu. his first game he came in and beat freson state for a big upset. then lost like 5 or 6 in a row after teams figure out he can run but couldn't really throw. while i think he can throw i dont' think he throws particularly well. not well enough to keep defenses honest.



jake can throw and with our receivers and oline protecting him he could be very dangerous as far as the deep ball goes. as long as our running backs can put it together starting jake will incrase our changes of winning. if our runningbacks stink which allows them to focus more on the pass, then its a wash. it looks like running back is really key this year. losing harvey was a big deal.

Yep, because we all know the 2005 talent Riley had helping him at Utah State is just as good as what Riley will have helping him here at BYU in 2010. Riley is a completely one dimensional player and if BYU coaches play him, they are going to develop an offensive gameplan to make sure Riley either 1) stays one dimensional or 2) has to make plays that are against his strengths.



And we all know that if Riley starts there is no way our running backs will be able to put it together so by starting Riley or chances of winning must decrease.



Face it, the battle is closer than you think and want it to be.

Chill buddy. Your the one giving the edge to someone. If you didn't take my comments out of context and left this part in when you cut and pasted

Anybody being objective I think from what I have read and heard would be hard pressed to say anybody is in the lead right now. i believe bronco when he says status quo so far.

, you would realize that maybe I am the one actually that realizes it is close and you are the one giving an edge to somebody. I flat out stated that it s even, no edge.



It is a fact that Riley is not a great passer. It is a fact that Jake is. If our running backs and oline establish a good running game, then playing the person who is a great passer would help us more then that person whose strength is more running. just an opinion man.



maybe you should face it, and realize that I never said it was not close nor do i care greatly. In fact the fact that nelson is keeping it close has suprised me. I thought jake would pull away but he hasn't. you nelson guys are really over sensitive. Its wierd.

And I gave the edge to Jake yesterday. I'll do my best to chill. But the facts/stats thus far through fall camp simply don't suggest that Riley "is not a great passer" or that "it is a fact that Jake is." The facts thus far suggest that Riley is the more efficient passer and that battle is very easy. I think a good running game is going to help whomever plays quarterback.

That is because nelson has his 'own' packages that cater to his strengths. He is a good passser from short distances but mid to long bombs are a weakness for him whereas Heaps is probably one of the best in the league already at such a young age. i am sue that explains why riley has been a more efficient passer as well.



look, its even. 100 percent even. with two different strengths they are both moving the ball and doing it quite well.



Would you agree that if we have a good running game it would benefit the team more to have an awesome mid to long bomb passer or one that struggles and is more inconsistent with those passes but is great at short passes and running? It just made sense to me. Jake is maybe the best long passer to come out of high school last year and maybe one of the in college football already. All else equal, if our running game is good, having jake behind center seems more beneficial than riley.



that said riley has more experiences reading defenses. The benefit jake's arm brings may not equal that experience that nelson has. I don't know. That is why I am just throwing it out there. Probably useless to even talk about it. but that is what we do on these boards. we waste time talking about things that don't matter.

jonnylingo wrote:
hepas got the interception. but apparently one of nelson's passes should have been intercepted had jorgenson not messed it up. nelson also missed a wide open jacobsen in the endzone.



i don't give the passing edge to nelson from the reports that I read. jakes is the better passer. Nelson is the better runner. You can't argue those points wether you look at stats or not. the argument should be about who gets us in the endzone most consistently.



that is still up i the air and that is why there is a battle going on.

It seems like every time Nelson has the better numbers, there are always a few things like this that bring me back to the reality that Heaps is a better QB... and here he is a true freshman with no experience yet, so just think how much ahead of everyone he'll be given a year or two of experience.



I've said it before and I'll say it again: BYU's defense - not offense - will be what wins them games this year.



(even though you technically need points to win :P )





PS - The fact that these two QB's are even close right now says a lot about Heaps (freshman), and a lot about Nelson (experienced).

I think that is the key thing. I have intentionally prevented myself from getting emotionally tied to one guy or the other, but instead am emotionally tied to BYU. I want BYU to win and want the players on the field to succeed so BYU succeeds. I know Heaps is the future of BYU at QB, but I have no idea if the future begins Sept 4 v. UW, and really do not care. Just want to beat UW, beat AFA and head to Florida at 2-0. That means that both QB's need to play well, because I expct both to play in at least the first 3-4 games this year, if not all year long together.

The bottom line for me is this; if Heaps can manage the offense, protect the ball, read defenses and make plays with his arm when they are needed, he should start. My fear is that since he is a freshman and hasn't played in the college game or seen the speed of college defenses that he will struggle with what I have stated above and lose confidence in his abilities. It is up to the coaches to decide if he is capable of doing what I stated above. I am not confident that Nelson can do it either but I would much rather see an upper classman lose confidence then the freshman Phenom that in a couple of years will be much further ahead of where Riley is right now. I just don't want to see him get thrown to the wolves and then have to mend his confidence.

frdbtr wrote:

Heaps camp? Funny how the Nelson backers throw that around so easily. I put the battle at all square. I think that is about as objective as it can get. The overall stats back it up, as for reports from media observes, and from Bronco's own mouth.



And I said before, I expect Nelson to start v. UW and Heaps to play and eventually win the job. But just want to win. don;t care who plays QB for BYU so long as we lead at the final whistle. And nice to see the O struggle first day in pads. Love seeing a BYU D slap the O around for a change.

Not a Nelson backer but the reason the "heaps camp" gets thrown around like it does is because when Nelson has the better day, the message boards are a graveyard and when Heaps has the better day, the message boards fill up with people saying the race is over.



Plus anyone that posts comments that Nelson could lead BYU to a MWC championship as a starter gets labled a "Nelson supporter".

I think that is simply because there are more peopel on the heaps bandwagon. that is a result of the hype surrounding him mostly, but there are some who have thought tit through and given the situation right now do feel like it is best to start him and have reasons other then he is the new flashy decision.