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I think I understand my issue with Jake Heaps

by taekwondave · 8/11/2010

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taekwondave
And don't get me wrong, it's really not an issue with HIM at all, but I think I know what's keeping me from being as excited about him as I could be and keep searching for anything and everything that makes Riley or the other two look good.



I am simply reacting to the overbearing, sure-of-their-pick "Heaps Camp" on these boards. It's not even that they're not right. Shoot, I was just as excited when I found out about him over a year ago. I was when I caught him on ESPN vs. Will Smith's and Joe Montana's kids. Felt like I was watching a BYU game for some stupid little high school team in Washington.



But that's what it is. This happens to me all the time in reverse though, so I recognize it quite easily. Excitement about an idea usually breeds contempt in others. It's very odd. But for an example, I'll humor you. Has anybody heard the conspiracy involving the Federal Reserve? I'm sure many of you have. Anyway, it's an issue that has really got my attention and I have done my best to "alert" others to the situation, but oddly enough, the more excited I get about it, the less people seem to want to hear it. When I approach people about it, I've found it to be more effective to eliminate all emotion, and address the topic as if it were simply something I had heard or read but have not really made my mind up about yet. When I take that perspective, the response is really interesting. People can see the importance of the topic without needing to hear my opinion on it or see my excitement or frustration about it and they get passionate about it on their own. Whereas, it seems like when I'm passionate about it first, they feel the need to protect the opposing view, or at least, protect their own mind from being highjacked by a wave of emotion.



My girlfriend read me a passage from CS Lewis the other day that went something like this: "Don't tell me that something is shocking or amazing. Describe or explain it to me in such a way that gets ME to say that it's shocking or amazing."



I was so excited about Jake Heaps this past year, but folks have come on here showing such blind faith in him and such arrogance about his future at the apparent expense of all other candidates, and even logic itself, that even though they have a point, I can't HELP but feel the need to speak up for those I feel are being forgotten. If Riley Nelson, James Lark or Jason Munns came on this board, they might feel like they just weren't wanted. Three incredible quarterbacks that our coaches worked really hard to get and had a lot of faith in are basically being told they aren't wanted, not directly, but indirectly by the fans on this board due to their unwavering excitement over Jake. And I can't stomach that. Riley had over a 300 passer rating yesterday? 300??? Hello!!! That's INCREDIBLE. Why are we trying to downplay that and negatively justify it? That's AWESOME! Attempts to discredit that performance only damages the credibility of those that do so by proving their personal bias. A closed mind inspires other closed minds.



So where if we really took all this general excitement out of the Heaps story and I was just able to look at things without that element involved, I think I would be gunning more for Heaps right now, and if you asked me, I'd probably opine that he should start. But since I can tell that nobody else is really getting a fair shake from the fans around here, it feels like my duty somehow (and it seems for a few others on this board as well) to be "Speakers for the Dead" so to speak for the others in the QB race.
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IowaCougar
I understand your point completely. I feel much the same. Fortunately, I think the coaches will make their decision without the same "groupthink" mentality that sometimes infects the fans. If it's Heaps, then so be it. But if it's someone else, I'll behind him.
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frdbtr
My fear is that the Heaps fans are going to be so disapointed if Heaps is not chosen to start that they will think a mistake must have been made for him to not get the nod and that the coaches have lost touch with BYU football and must be replaced. Then if BYU loses a game or two, then we start hearing the boo birds in the stands, we start hearing the "fire bronco" talk on the radio and reading the same on these boards. Frankly, I don't want to hear it. Steve Young was 8-4 his first year starting and then went 11-1 his SR year. Riley is probably not a Steve Young type of talent but he is capbable of winning a MWC championship as a starter for BYU. Heaps has much more upside but what happens if he gets the nod and then gets punched in the mouth and loses confidence to the point that he starts questioning all his decisions while under center and becomes completely ineffective as a QB. It doesn't take much for a QB to lose confidence and it has happened more times then not to highly recruited QB's out of high school that start as freshman.
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taekwondave
You know, it's funny when you think about it. I don't really think there was ever a "Nelson Camp" or a "Munns Camp" or a "Lark Camp" on this board or any others. There was simply the "Heaps Camp" and then those that asked for objectivity and patience being LABELED as "Nelson Campers". I don't know ONE "Nelson Camper", but I have seen several "Objectivity and Patience Campers".
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Lawboy
I do not see it as "groupthink". I see it as people who are evaluating what BYU is, seeing the various individual talents of the 2 guys, and deciding which set of talents equates better with that BYU is offensively.



I do not care who starts personally, so long as BYU wins. I have seen players come and go, and my loyalty remains with BYU. I just want to guys to play now that give the team the best chance to win now. And because of that, I will admit that I am leaning towards Heaps. But if Riley starts, I am fine with it. Just want the guy to get the job done. Period.



I do find it funny that people are actually concerned what others will think or how Cougar Nation will feel if Riley starts. I mean, really? Just admit you want Nelson to start, be honest about it, and move on. Snocythe and others have been. I see zero problem with taking a position and arguing for it, unless that includes being disrespectful of others being able to do the same thing. Until Bronco speaks, it is all just opinion anyway.
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frdbtr
Lawboy wrote:
I do not see it as "groupthink". I see it as people who are evaluating what BYU is, seeing the various individual talents of the 2 guys, and deciding which set of talents equates better with that BYU is offensively.



I do not care who starts personally, so long as BYU wins. I have seen players come and go, and my loyalty remains with BYU. I just want to guys to play now that give the team the best chance to win now. And because of that, I will admit that I am leaning towards Heaps. But if Riley starts, I am fine with it. Just want the guy to get the job done. Period.


I want to see Heaps start too. Preferably sooner then later. Having said that, I don't want him to start sooner then he is ready. I have seen too many "superman" High School QB's thrown to the wolves in college and then have sub par college careers after a serious loss in confidence. Took Beck all of 2005 to recover and didn't come into his own until half way through his SR year. It doesn't take much to have a very talented buy lose his confidence, throw a pick 6 that causes you to lose a game could do it. "Win by 9 instead of 2" could do it. Getting pulled after a weak 1st half and watching your back up lead the team to victory could do it. I would much prefer him to prepare the defense on the scout team this year and then start as a RS sophomore in 2 years and lead us to 3 MWC championships then have him start his year, lose his confidence and then not recover until his JR or SR year and possibly not ever.



Having said that, Doman and Bronco already helped one guy recover from loss in confidence and I don't forsee them putting Heaps into a situation where he will lose his so if he starts I am confident that he will succeed, but if Nelson starts, then all you Heaps worshippers need to realize that Bronco did not feel he was ready.
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Lawboy
I trust Bronco. End of story. He will not play a guy that is not ready. The coaches will not allow it. They demand too much of their teams to let one guy play that is the weakest link in a key position. When Heaps plays, it is because he is ready. And the fans will have zero say in it, so I really do not see the issue. Bronco has earned the right for everyone to trust his decisions.
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snoscythe
Lawboy wrote:
Just admit you want Nelson to start, be honest about it, and move on. Snocythe and others have been.


Just to clarify--I just want the guy under center who is going to win the most games. End of story. Lest anyone has forgotten (and I think many have):



http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2839&p=21500#p21500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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craigoscarson
This is the type of competition that we should be having every year; even if a kid is entrenched and won the year before, we should have so much talent that the others are pushing the incumbent to improve daily. That's exactly what's going to happen at the receiver, linebacker and tight end position this year (and in the future); and this is what happens with the perrenial top 10 teams. No position is safe due to the talent behind the perceived starters.



Heaps won every camps MVP last year, including the elite 11. He was a vital part in ensuring the best recruiting class in BYU history and has held his own in spring and fall camp thus far; he deserves a lot of the respect he's gotten. While I havent' been anti-heaps, I've been pro redshirt for most of the time he's been on campus. But I'm actually coming around to the fact that the talented receivers want him there, the fact that the o-line doesn't have a favorite, and that what he does brings attention to BYU. (I thought Apo's shoulder injury was more severe and that he wouldn't play this season; but I want Apo and Heaps to ride out into the sunset together, which possibly helps us keep them as seniors)



I say start Riley vs UW for the purpose of not letting the Huskies gameplan for a freshman (i.e. send the blitz from everywhere) and let the chips fall where they may. Riley has value this season as a starter or change of pace qb; there's no doubt of that.



I've seen video of Munns and Lark in camp, and while they're obviously rusty, they pass the eye test too. We're very lucky to have them all. This is the type of depth and talent that elite teams have.



Traditional wisdom says you stick with one qb and stay with that one; but for this year, I'm not so sure that is really so wise. If the experienced o-line and offense can handle two different styles, it' really helps us in the game plan portion of what is a really ambitious opening schedule for such a young overall team.
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Florwood
taekwondave wrote:
You know, it's funny when you think about it. I don't really think there was ever a "Nelson Camp" or a "Munns Camp" or a "Lark Camp" on this board or any others. There was simply the "Heaps Camp" and then those that asked for objectivity and patience being LABELED as "Nelson Campers". I don't know ONE "Nelson Camper", but I have seen several "Objectivity and Patience Campers".


Heaps Realists?
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Brayden Green
taekwondave wrote:
overbearing... sure-of-their-pick... contempt... blind faith... arrogance... at the apparent expense of all other candidates, and even logic... unwavering excitement... negatively justify damages the(ir) credibility... their personal bias... A closed mind inspires other closed minds... nobody else is really getting a fair shake from the fans



it feels like my duty somehow ... to be "Speakers for the Dead" so to speak for the others in the QB race.


Are you so sure that you are a Speaker for the Dead (one of the best book series ever, btw), or just being a douche? :whistle:
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byutx
Here's what I think:

-The cieling for what Heaps can do in college is, in my OPINION, much, much, much higher than that for Riley, and not just because he's 4 or 5 inches shorter than Heaps. ;)

-When he joined the team Heaps was already a better passer than Nelson.

-I like our offense. I don't much care for run-based offenses, or multiple read option type plays and the like.

-I trust Bronco completely and think he will make the best decision for the team, taking into account all needs: winning now, winning in the future, recruiting, etc.

-If Nelson is the guy, then fine. It'll just make it harder on him to get "Sean Coveyed" if or when that happens.
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jonnylingo
craigoscarson wrote:



Heaps won every camps MVP last year, including the elite 11. He was a vital part in ensuring the best recruiting class in BYU history and has held his own in spring and fall camp thus far; he deserves a lot of the respect he's gotten. While I havent' been anti-heaps, I've been pro redshirt for most of the time he's been on campus. But I'm actually coming around to the fact that the talented receivers want him there, the fact that the o-line doesn't have a favorite, and that what he does brings attention to BYU. (I thought Apo's shoulder injury was more severe and that he wouldn't play this season; but I want Apo and Heaps to ride out into the sunset together, which possibly helps us keep them as seniors)


This is the same way I felt and why I eventually just got off of the fence. I could easily hop back off though if nelson were to separate himself from heaps but if he doesn't and it remains even, I think its best to go with heaps for the reasons mentioned.



And by they way, since i have apparently been labeled a "heaps camp" guy, I wouldn't have a problem if heaps didn't start. I think riley is good enough to start and trust the coaches in picking that person who will win them the most games now.



I don't think there are many here who would flip out. mars is the only one that comes to mind. most of us just want to win but objectively its obvious the race is still close at this point. i just think riley has to much stacked against him to win the starting job or at the very least hold on to it all year.
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QuarterbackU
Taikwondave, I think you need to take some time off from this QB competition. You are in over your head and being too emotional. I was one of the first to ever come out and state my case for Heaps and I got blasted pretty good for it. One funny poster said I had a man-crush. In those days everyone was soooo objective and mature about this issue stating that they only wanted the best person under center to start and "whatever the coaches decide is best." Now it seems the Heaps lovers are coming out of the woodwork and I love it! This decision has more implications than just who is the best QB by September 5th and that's why more and more people on the board are coming out and showing support of Heaps. Nelson campers, and there are Nelson campers, are only thinking about September 5th and are feeling sorry for Nelson.



Nelson is like the New York Jets last year. They think they are going to win a super bowl this year but they forget that the only reason they made it to the championship game last year is because the Colts played their reserves to prevent injuries thus delivering the Jets into a playoff spot that they didn't deserve. Nelson would not be in the situation he is in with out the grace of Brenden Gaskins. Brenden stepped aside and gave Riley this "playoff spot." Sad thing is that after that incredible gift Riley is still not seperating himself. Riley should be dominating Heaps right now but he's not and if he's not, then you need to start looking at the future.



Nelson is an INCREDIBLE athlete and QB...but he should be playing for Kyle Whittingham or Rich Rodriguez at Michigan.
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jonnylingo
This thread brings up another issue though. the fans want to see jake heaps so if nelson does get the nod every time he gets a mistake you will have morons calling for his head and hte media will go crazy criticizing bronco.



it is what it is whether it makes sense or not. nelson if he wins the job is going to have some MAJOR pressure on him to win and to be perfect. i think jake gets a pass for making mistakes because he was a star recruit and a 'true freshman.'



that is another season why nelson has to really separate himself if he wants the starting nod. its going to have to be clear that he will help us win more than heaps would at this point in time.
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Y12
craigoscarson wrote:
I say start Riley vs UW for the purpose of not letting the Huskies gameplan for a freshman (i.e. send the blitz from everywhere) and let the chips fall where they may. Riley has value this season as a starter or change of pace qb; there's no doubt of that.


I say Washington is preparing to send the blitz from everywhere anyways. Until Nelson shows he can stay in the pocket and go through the progressions, every team will want to blitz him giving him less time to make the read and less lanes to scramble through.
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YNot
The excitement around Heaps has more to do with the fairytale potential storyline that he brings...



#1 QB recruit in the nation comes to BYU and, as a true freshman, leads BYU to a conference title and BCS bowl game...followed by 3 more years of Heismen-esque play that raises the BYU football program to truly elite heights!



I must admit that I'm pulling for the guy mostly based on reputation, perceived quality, and the potential storyline...I've only seen high school videos...



However, Nelson is proving that he can pass and bring some excitement to the offense as well. I've said this before, but I hope both Nelson and Heaps get playing time this year. Riley and Heaps apparently will bring different paces and styles to the offense, which could be a great benefit. I compare it with Tim Tebow's freshman year. Leak was the starter at Florida, but Tebow came in and provided changes of pace and was brilliant in certain situations (3rd and short, etc.). Only, with Heaps and Nelson, I could see Nelson as more of the change-of-pace and special situation guy, even though Heaps is the freshman....



It could be really great to see defenses gameplanning for the option or draw whenever Nelson is behind center, only to have him roll out and throw one over the top to Jacobsen or Apo! With diverse quarterback and running back schemes and play, this year's offense has the potential to be extremely exciting!
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Mars
jonnylingo wrote:
since i have apparently been labeled a "heaps camp" guy, I wouldn't have a problem if heaps didn't start... I don't think there are many here who would flip out. mars is the only one that comes to mind.

Really? Thanks for speaking for me, but that's not true. I expect Nelson to start against Washington, and for Heaps to play as well. I don't see either blue-shirting this year.



I think the whole "Heaps camp" idea is stupid. We aren't supposed to use reason and logic to make our opinions?



Last year I was in "Max Hall's camp". This year I'm in "Matt Reynolds' camp", "Andrew Rich's camp", "Brian Logan's camp", "Jordan Pendleton's camp", etc. Some people are saying that like it's a bad thing. Seems pretty immature of them.
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taekwondave
Mars wrote:
since i have apparently been labeled a "heaps camp" guy, I wouldn't have a problem if heaps didn't start... I don't think there are many here who would flip out. mars is the only one that comes to mind.

Really? Thanks for speaking for me, but that's not true. I expect Nelson to start against Washington, and for Heaps to play as well. I don't see either blue-shirting this year.



I think the whole "Heaps camp" idea is stupid. We aren't supposed to use reason and logic to make our opinions?



Last year I was in "Max Hall's camp". This year I'm in "Matt Reynolds' camp", "Andrew Rich's camp", "Brian Logan's camp", "Jordan Pendleton's camp", etc. Some people are saying that like it's a bad thing. Seems pretty immature of them.


Seems immature? Mars, I like you. You're one of my favorites. Always have been. There is nothing wrong with liking our players. I'm in the "pendleton camp" too, but there isn't a guy on the team who's "camp" I'm not in. I'm first and foremost in the "BYU Camp". Rooting for them and hoping they become great without giving personal preference to one player or the other this early in camp can hardly be construed as immature. Much to the contrary. This qb battle is actually getting a little ugly. It reminds me of a political primary where either person could win a nomination but because there is one you like so much more than the other you do harm to the future campaign of the other if he becomes a nominee. Talk up Heaps and sing his praises all we want, we should be careful not to undercut or downplay the accomplishments of the others. I'm surprised by the apparent apathy towards Riley's accomplishments over the last two practices. I think an open mind is still in order to see how this thing plays out all the way to the first game. By then it should be more clear. I don't see why everyone wants to be a prophet before them. Is just so they can say, "I said it all along?"
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Mars
taekwondave wrote:
Seems immature? Mars, I like you. You're one of my favorites. Always have been. There is nothing wrong with liking our players. I'm in the "pendleton camp" too, but there isn't a guy on the team who's "camp" I'm not in. I'm first and foremost in the "BYU Camp". Rooting for them and hoping they become great without giving personal preference to one player or the other this early in camp can hardly be construed as immature... I don't see why everyone wants to be a prophet before them. Is just so they can say, "I said it all along?"

Because giving our opinion about sports is all we can do, since we don't play for the team?



Besides, if Zeke Mendenhall started over Jordan Pendleton, I would be a little bit confused and apprehensive at first.
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