Archived Topic

Questons from a Utah fan

by MTM · 6/18/2010

MTM

6/18/2010, 7:41:01 PM

I am a Utah alum and fan so naturally Iâm very pleased with Utah going to the PAC-10. In my view there is absolutely no downside to this for the U.

Iâm not happy BYU didnât get an invite. To be clear, Iâm not mad they didnât. Iâm indifferent. I did always believe that when this day came it would be a Utah-BYU package, however. There was a moment last week when I thought both of them to the Big 12 might happen. I think BYU to the Big 12 is just a matter of time

I am curious about a couple things.

I hear a lot of comments along the lines that Utah will struggle in the PAC and that they will be a middle of the pack team, etc. I also hear a lot of comments that BYU is far superior to the U academically.

1. Do you guys think BYU would compete better than Utah in a BCS conference?

2. What do you base your analysis on that Utah is not up to par academically?

I donât believe Utahâs invite means they are better than BYU or even more deserving for that matter. But I also donât believe BYU is any better than Utah either.

Iâm not looking for a fight. Just curious.

1967cougar

6/18/2010, 7:48:32 PM

Is this legit or do I smell troll droppings?

MTM

6/18/2010, 7:53:27 PM

I don't know what a troll is. I'm not trying to hide the fact I am a Utah fan.

I'm not looking for a fight.

If you don't want to engage, fine.

CougarClaw

6/18/2010, 8:01:30 PM

I think BYU's undergrad programs are superior, but with the exception of Business schools, the U has better Graduate programs by far. you run an entire hospital (Several hospitals even!) for crying out loud and BYU doesn't compare.

As for how Utah will do in the Pac-10? The timing couldn't have been better now that USC has been slapped upside the head by the NCAA's, and you guys are fielding a fairly experienced team today, I think you'll do well the first couple of years until the BCS recruits start flowing in. I'd love to see you struggle, but I don't think you will.

I think most of our gripes are not against the U as much as against the Pac-0. Their Criteria of "research programs" as their gold standard for not even considering BYU while welcoming in academic 'powerhouse' Colorado into the fold and fielding notorious party schools of Oregon and Arizona State, reeks of religious bigotry. It's one thing to for the Pac-0 not to pick us, it's another to be passed over for Colorado (Colorado!!!??) and your rival. And why? It's not academics (certainly better than Colorado), competitiveness(same as U, better than CO), nor TV market (same as the U), and its certainly not for regional fan bases (better than both options).

You come up with your own answer.

CougarClaw

6/18/2010, 8:03:52 PM

welcome to the board btw...

CougarPeasant

6/18/2010, 8:04:59 PM

MTM wrote:
I am a Utah alum and fan so naturally Iâm very pleased with Utah going to the PAC-10. In my view there is absolutely no downside to this for the U.

Iâm not happy BYU didnât get an invite. To be clear, Iâm not mad they didnât. Iâm indifferent. I did always believe that when this day came it would be a Utah-BYU package, however. There was a moment last week when I thought both of them to the Big 12 might happen. I think BYU to the Big 12 is just a matter of time

I am curious about a couple things.

I hear a lot of comments along the lines that Utah will struggle in the PAC and that they will be a middle of the pack team, etc. I also hear a lot of comments that BYU is far superior to the U academically.

1. Do you guys think BYU would compete better than Utah in a BCS conference?

2. What do you base your analysis on that Utah is not up to par academically?

I donât believe Utahâs invite means they are better than BYU or even more deserving for that matter. But I also donât believe BYU is any better than Utah either.

Iâm not looking for a fight. Just curious.

Welcome to the board and those are some good questions.

I congratulate the Utes in moving up in the world. They earned it. I still think that the Pac10 settled in taking them over BYU since athletically and academically, BYU is much more successful on both fronts. If you are going just on football, then both programs are comparable. I don't get it with my Cougar faithful here why they think the ewetes will fail once they go to the Pac10. This same group keeps saying the MWC is just as good as the Pac10. Well, either it is or it isn't.

Utah clearly is the 3d best team in the MWC. (one singular year in the last five seasons does not make them the best football team in the conference. sorry.) So they should be at least as good as the teams in the top half of the Pac10. I think KWhitt is a good enough coach that he will compete well year in and year out and will get better players to bear that out as well. I don't think they will dominate nor challenge for the conference title, but do much like they've done in the MWC, namely, put together a stellar year every 5-8 seasons and have solid years otherwise.

Academically, BYU is a better school than Utah, certainly at the undergraduate level. At the research level, yes, Utah has the advantage, but how many grad students do you have playing collegiate sports?!!!! Very, very few the last I checked.

So, good luck Utah, represent the MWC well and don't forget your roots.

Lawboy

6/18/2010, 8:15:07 PM

I am on record saying Utah will compete well in the PAC10, but not dominate. I think they go 4-4 in year 1 and I base it off results from 2000 to 2009, the best decade in Utah football history. Utah is 1-6 at PAC10 venues during that stretch, 5-1 at RES. So basically, they win at home, lose on the road. Thus, 4-4. I also think Utah will bust through and win the PAC10 about once every 10-12 years, or at about the same rate as ASU, which I think is a similar program to Utah. ASU has won the PAC10 3 times since 1978, and when ASU left the WAC, they had dominated it for years, more so than Utah ever did in the MWC. Look up Frank Kush for info.

As to comparing Utah to BYU, I think BYU would do the same in the PAC10 a Utah initially and over time. BYU does not win at PAC10 venues too often either, but beats those teams at LES. I would expect 4-4 in year 1. However, if BYU gets a Big 12 invite, and sits in the North division, I think they do better over time with that than teh U does in teh south division of the PAC10. USC is a batter program than any in the North. BYU could beat Kansas, KState, IState, Missouri and some other school pretty regularly. If they get matched up with OU or Texas, I change my opinion and see BYU winning the division every 5-6 years instead of every other year. Winning the Big 12 would still be tough, so once every 7-8 years or so.

As far as academics go, BYU is a much better undergrad institution, per national rankings. Look them up yourself. This is an unbiased view, not an opinion. BYU is also rated higher with their Business School, Accounting program, Nursing and the law programs are about even. So in areas where BYU does offer advanced degrees, they rate as high or higher than Utah. Utah does rate higher in certain research areas, and overall, is a much better research institution. But again, BYU's mission focuses on undergrad studies for the most part. But Utah is doing great in the medical field, eye research, cancer and other areas BYU does not do too much in. I do believe that BYU also puts more students into Med school, dental school, law school, MBA programs, etc than he U does, so that supports the Undergrad claims. It also helps that BYU caps enrollment and can be more selective of who they admit than Utah can. Utah admits more students with lesser credentials in undergrad studies, but that is generally not the case in most advanced studies programs. Except the MBA program, which is still quite young.

Y 4 Ever

6/18/2010, 8:20:47 PM

I'll happily answer this question for you. Without using any names - just team A and team B. And you tell me who is more "deserving", who is more "bcs worthy".

Team A: Has won 22 conference championships in the past 35 years in Football, including 2 in the last 4 years.

Team B: Has won only 3 outright conference championships in the last 35 years in Football, with 1 in the last four years. And prior to 2003, hadn't won an outright conference championship in 50 (FIFTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years.

Team A: In head to head matchups has beaten Team B in 3 out of the last 4 games (and in basketball, 7 of the last 8)

Team B: In head to head matchups has beaten Team A in 1 out of the last 4 games (and in basketball, 1 of 8)

Team A: Has regularly sold out its 65,000 seat stadium for the past 30+ years.

Team B: Just 6 years ago, their "legendary", mercenary coach was GIVING AWAY THOUSANDS of tickets, hoping to convince Team B's apathetic "fans" to just show up so the stadium would look full for a nationally televised game against a Pac-0 opponent.

Team A: Has won 43 games over the past 4 years.

Team B: Has won 40 games over the past 4 years.

Team A: has a history of winning big games against big-time opponents, including: Texas, Oklahoma, Penn State, Notre Dame (back when they were actually good), Miami, Pittsburgh (when they were actually good), Boston College, Arizona St (when they were actually good), Texas A&M (when they were actually good), etc, etc, etc.

Team B: has one signature win - Alabama. And that's pretty much it.

Team A: Has a huge fan base outside of the state of Utah, and also dominates the Utah market as well.

Team B: is growing its fan base in SL County...and is irrelevant outside of the state.

Team A: Other sports absolutely dominate over Team B, with the notable exception of Gymnastics

Team B: Has a fine gymnastics team.

Team A: Is a religious institution ran by a conservative church.

Team B: Is a state-sponsored school that takes pride in its liberal views.

So...OBVIOUSLY the final criteria trumps all of the previous...right?

So, :utard: troll, ask yourself this - who was actually a better choice for moving into a BCS conference - Team A or Team B?

The reason why BYU fans are so pissed off that :utard: backed their way into the Pac-0 is because they don't DESERVE IT. The team doesn't, and especially the "FANS" don't.

So know that every single time you watch your beloved Yewts get hammered by USC, that you were the bottom of the barrel, and that without religious bigotry amongst your tree-hugging, gay-marrying, baby-killing, Godless brethren, you would NEVER have been chosen.

May a three-legged ram step on your toe.

CannonCougar85

6/18/2010, 8:25:14 PM

I personally don't think the PAC is that good. Just because they are a BCS conference means absolutely nothing. They get more money but if money equaled wins then every BCS school would be better then every non-BCS school but that clearly isn't the case. In fact you could argue that the top non-BCS schools are better because they do more with less. That being said Utah is 1-6 on the road vs the PAC in the last decade or so. So I think Utah will be a tad above .500 for first few years or so and then average out at about 5-3, 6-2 with a few great runs here and there.

Also Utah does not automatically become better then BYU just because they are in the PAC, I expect that series to continue going back and forth.

BigCougsFan

6/18/2010, 8:30:15 PM

33311710 wrote:
I'll happily answer this question for you. Without using any names - just team A and team B. And you tell me who is more "deserving", who is more "bcs worthy".

Team A: Has won 22 conference championships in the past 35 years in Football, including 2 in the last 4 years.

Team B: Has won only 3 outright conference championships in the last 35 years in Football, with 1 in the last four years. And prior to 2003, hadn't won an outright conference championship in 50 (FIFTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years.

Team A: In head to head matchups has beaten Team B in 3 out of the last 4 games (and in basketball, 7 of the last 8)

Team B: In head to head matchups has beaten Team A in 1 out of the last 4 games (and in basketball, 1 of 8)

Team A: Has regularly sold out its 65,000 seat stadium for the past 30+ years.

Team B: Just 6 years ago, their "legendary", mercenary coach was GIVING AWAY THOUSANDS of tickets, hoping to convince Team B's apathetic "fans" to just show up so the stadium would look full for a nationally televised game against a Pac-0 opponent.

Team A: Has won 43 games over the past 4 years.

Team B: Has won 40 games over the past 4 years.

Team A: has a history of winning big games against big-time opponents, including: Texas, Oklahoma, Penn State, Notre Dame (back when they were actually good), Miami, Pittsburgh (when they were actually good), Boston College, Arizona St (when they were actually good), Texas A&M (when they were actually good), etc, etc, etc.

Team B: has one signature win - Alabama. And that's pretty much it.

Team A: Has a huge fan base outside of the state of Utah, and also dominates the Utah market as well.

Team B: is growing its fan base in SL County...and is irrelevant outside of the state.

Team A: Other sports absolutely dominate over Team B, with the notable exception of Gymnastics

Team B: Has a fine gymnastics team.

Team A: Is a religious institution ran by a conservative church.

Team B: Is a state-sponsored school that takes pride in its liberal views.

So...OBVIOUSLY the final criteria trumps all of the previous...right?

So, :utard: troll, ask yourself this - who was actually a better choice for moving into a BCS conference - Team A or Team B?

The reason why BYU fans are so pissed off that :utard: backed their way into the Pac-0 is because they don't DESERVE IT. The team doesn't, and especially the "FANS" don't.

So know that every single time you watch your beloved Yewts get hammered by USC, that you were the bottom of the barrel, and that without religious bigotry amongst your tree-hugging, gay-marrying, baby-killing, Godless brethren, you would NEVER have been chosen.

May a three-legged ram step on your toe.

LOL -- I was under the impression he asked more about the acdemics than sports side.

BUT Utah going to the PAC actually does fit for them. BYU fits better in the Big XII. Just be patient and we'll eventually be in that conference playing in front of all these Texas recruits that Utah and the nation covet for. Patience...

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

MTM

6/18/2010, 8:37:56 PM

Lawboy wrote:
I am on record saying Utah will compete well in the PAC10, but not dominate.

I've read your assessment in other threads to this effect

As to comparing Utah to BYU, I think BYU would do the same in the PAC10 a Utah initially and over time. BYU does not win at PAC10 venues too often either, but beats those teams at LES. I would expect 4-4 in year 1. However, if BYU gets a Big 12 invite, and sits in the North division, I think they do better over time with that than teh U does in teh south division of the PAC10. USC is a batter program than any in the North. BYU could beat Kansas, KState, IState, Missouri and some other school pretty regularly. If they get matched up with OU or Texas, I change my opinion and see BYU winning the division every 5-6 years instead of every other year. Winning the Big 12 would still be tough, so once every 7-8 years or so.

I think Utah can do the same in the PAC. Geez even WSU was co-champs in 2002

As far as academics go, BYU is a much better undergrad institution, per national rankings. Look them up yourself.

This might be where I am confused. I did look it up on some academic ranking site and Utah ranked higher than BYU. i'm not sure of the methodology but at least in one organization's opinion Utah is just as good academically. I don't know how that can even be ranked objectively anyway.

Y 4 Ever

6/18/2010, 8:42:13 PM

BigCougsFan wrote:

LOL -- I was under the impression he asked more about the acdemics than sports side.

BUT Utah going to the PAC actually does fit for them. BYU fits better in the Big XII. Just be patient and we'll eventually be in that conference playing in front of all these Texas recruits that Utah and the nation covet for. Patience...

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I know he was asking more about the academics, but we all know that academics actually had NOTHING to do with it (as evidenced by the Okie St and Texas Tech invites). And besides, I've been needing to get that off of my chest. Now I don't have to have that conversation in sacrament meeting tomorrow in my :utard: -infested ward.

I really need to move to Provo.

BigCougsFan

6/18/2010, 8:44:42 PM

33311710 wrote:

LOL -- I was under the impression he asked more about the acdemics than sports side.

BUT Utah going to the PAC actually does fit for them. BYU fits better in the Big XII. Just be patient and we'll eventually be in that conference playing in front of all these Texas recruits that Utah and the nation covet for. Patience...

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I know he was asking more about the academics, but we all know that academics actually had NOTHING to do with it (as evidenced by the Okie St and Texas Tech invites). And besides, I've been needing to get that off of my chest. Now I don't have to have that conversation in sacrament meeting tomorrow in my :utard: -infested ward.

I really need to move to Provo.

Sacrament meeting tomorrow?

What kind of heathen are you?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Y 4 Ever

6/18/2010, 8:59:55 PM

BigCougsFan wrote:
BigCougsFan wrote:

LOL -- I was under the impression he asked more about the acdemics than sports side.

BUT Utah going to the PAC actually does fit for them. BYU fits better in the Big XII. Just be patient and we'll eventually be in that conference playing in front of all these Texas recruits that Utah and the nation covet for. Patience...

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I know he was asking more about the academics, but we all know that academics actually had NOTHING to do with it (as evidenced by the Okie St and Texas Tech invites). And besides, I've been needing to get that off of my chest. Now I don't have to have that conversation in sacrament meeting tomorrow in my :utard: -infested ward.

I really need to move to Provo.

Sacrament meeting tomorrow?

What kind of heathen are you?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

What, is there a commandment against 2 sacrament meetings in one week? ;)

CougarClaw

6/18/2010, 9:14:09 PM

33311710 wrote:

May a three-legged ram step on your toe.

you said a lot of really mean things in your team A vs team B comparison but this steps over the line...

Rams have feelings too! (unless you're from St. Louis.)

Y 4 Ever

6/18/2010, 9:20:44 PM

CougarClaw wrote:

May a three-legged ram step on your toe.

you said a lot of really mean things in your team A vs team B comparison but this steps over the line...

Rams have feelings too! (unless you're from St. Louis.)

I apologize to any cloven-hoofed mammals with missing limbs who may have been offended by my remarks. I vow from this time forward to be sensitive of the feelings of all of our furry friends.

Luckily :utard: 's have no fur.

jonnylingo

6/18/2010, 9:23:29 PM

I think the BYU and Utah programs at this point in time with the coaches they currently have in place are about as equal as it gets. While each has their strengths and weaknesses they couldn't be more even.

Utah will do about as well as BYU would on the field in either conference. The difference is that byu has more loyal followers and therefore puts more people in seats and has more tv viewers. they also have a richer history of success. utah recently has had more national success however.

Utah was picked because they were good on the field, in a growing tv market, and not a religiously conservative school.

Guest

6/18/2010, 9:46:00 PM

Academically most experts will agree that BYU is a superior school, it would often be ranked even higher, except that one of the criteria used is getting students graduated in 5 years from enrollment, which with the large number of missions obviously hurts BYU.

US News and World Report Ranks the two like this:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/compare/items+3670+3675

BYU - 71

UofU - 126

ProV1

6/18/2010, 9:48:10 PM

Comparison-

Undergraduate rank - BYU 71 Utah 126

Medical school - BYU N/A Utah 38

Law school - BYU 41 Utah 45

Undergrad enroll - BYU 30,912 Utah 21,526

Tuition - BYU 4,290 Utah 5,804 (18,352 out of state)

My wife - BYU is much more difficult than the U

Competition-

In my humble yet slightly jealous opinion it's hard to argue with the U's two BCS wins and undefeated seasons. If anyone deserves an upgrade it's first Boise State then Utah. Now, how will they fare in the Pac-12? I predict the good years will average 8-4 and the bad years 6-6. They can beat anyone in the Pac-10, true, but they've never had to do it back-to-back-to-back on the road. In the past they've beaten Cal and Oregon but the week before and the week after they had Wyoming, UNLV, and New Mexico. It's a sad commentary on the Mt West when there are realistically multiple weeks that you don't have to prepare for, just show up and win.

Lawboy

6/18/2010, 9:57:38 PM

hawkwing wrote:
Academically most experts will agree that BYU is a superior school, it would often be ranked even higher, except that one of the criteria used is getting students graduated in 5 years from enrollment, which with the large number of missions obviously hurts BYU.

US News and World Report Ranks the two like this:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/compare/items+3670+3675

BYU - 71

UofU - 126

Exactly what I was about to post. For grad degrees, Princeton Review is probably best.

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