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The Leadership Factor

by snoscythe · 6/3/2010

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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
2- Nelson has the leadership in... off-season workouts. On the field? We shall see. Wouldn't the guy the WRs trust more have more leadership? Because that's Heaps.


I know you were talking about the WRs, so I took the liberty of fixing your post to avoid any confusion, and I split this off to avoid derailing what is proving to be an interesting poll.



I don't remember any receiver saying they trust Heaps over Nelson. I don't remember any even expressing a preference. I remember Wrubell giving the 11-on-11 stats and saying"Combine those numbers with the feedback from offseason throwing sessions, and Heaps is proving to be a favorite of the receivers, and the best pure passer."



As a former receiver, of course I prefer the QB who send the ball my way over the guy who I have to run-block for--I signed up for the position to make plays, not to throw myself at linebackers and safeties. That doesn't mean I trust the pure-passer over the run threat or that the passer has more leadership. Something else that doesn't get mentioned is left-handed v. right-handed. I when we had a quarterback battle my senior year in high school between a righty and a southpaw because I could never locate the ball. You get used to looking for the ball to emerge from the pocket a certain way, to angle through the air a certain way, etc. A lefty screws that up for you (which is a strong argument against the two-QB proposal). As a receiver I would automatically have a preference for the guy who gets the ball to me the way I am used to it--less work for me. That said, once the battle was settled and we had a lefty for a quarterback, the discomfort in locating the lefty's pass was gone before the regular season started--we just had to acclimate.



In any event, that doesn't change the fact that the Bronco acknowledged Nelson has the leadership edge. Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start.



I really don't think there is anyway to be certain of the starter. It all comes down to gut-feel for each person.
M
Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Bronco acknowledged Nelson has the leadership edge.



Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start.

1- Bronco does not say that Nelson has a leadership edge. But he does say that the most important thing is TDs, and that's all Heaps.

"Ultimately, leading the team into the end zone has to be acknowledged," Mendenhall said. "I think Jake did a nice job of that today. I also think, though, that the grit and determination and leadership that Riley is playing with is a strong force as well. Too early to call a leader at this point."



2- Doman said that if a QB divides the team by trying to politically rally support from individual players over the other QBs, they won't start. I didn't see him say anywhere what you said he said though. What quote specifically are you referring to?



3- Specific articles I would have to look up. But off the top of my head, Chambers and Logan seemed to prefer Heaps in their quotes. Apo and Kasen prefer Heaps. Dylan Collie seems to prefer Heaps. Ashworth has been very impressed with Heaps, and I think Brandon Bradley made similar comments as well. Wrubell, Drew, Sorenson, Harmon, and Dickson have all talked about how Heaps is the better pure-passer and WR-pleaser. I think even Doman and/or Bronco may have acknolwedge Heaps as the better pocker passer by now (not sure, just going by memory). I'm sorry that I don't have all the links right now. Is there anyone else that remembers seeing/reading/hearing comments like this, from any of these players?
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Lawboy
All I know is that when Detmer came in as a redshirt freshman, the team rallied around him pretty fast, and no one had an issue leaving the more experienced guy in the system behind, Sean Covey. And the reason was because Detmer got the job done, guys wanted to win, and saw he helped them with that more. And I think it really is as simple as that. Heaps is basically a redshirt freshman now. He had a spring practice with the team, all summer to get reps, and has had time to get a rapport with the receivers and O-line. If the guys think Heaps gives them a better chance to win, the will rally around him as well. It all comes down to winning, and which QB can help the team do that more. Players want to win, not be lead by a lovable guy who loses more.
M
Mars


"After spring ball, Mendenhall said:"I think it's becoming apparent to everyone Jake (Heaps) is really a natural, poised pocket passer and makes very good decisions...He's a great young man, an excellent leader... one of the brightest prospects at quarterback that I've seen. You forget that he's still a high school senior...he's everything I thought he would be and we're very fortunate that he's here." Mendenhall, on the possibility of starting Heaps as a freshman: "With any other player other than (Heaps), I'm not sure I could be even close to being comfortable. But I've been pleasantly surprised. Jake is an exceptional young man, a very good talent. He's picked up and grasped our offense very well and moved our football team this spring. So I'm further along toward my comfort than I thought I would be. That's making me rest a little bit easier." To say that Heaps isn't seen as a preferred talent by the BYU coaches is to ignore the historical, anecdotal and statistical evidence... it doesn't take long to realize that Jake Heaps is a special player and the best quarterback currently in the BYU program... Heaps has all of the inherent qualities you want in a college quarterback. His athletic ability, poise, leadership skills, winning background and pro potential all indicate he can be the starter when BYU opens the season September 4th... Heaps is not your typical young player, and many of the qualities that might undermine a freshman starter do not appear to be part of Heaps' makeup. Some might say the "safe" thing to do would be to start the experienced quarterback and let Riley Nelson's running ability give the Huskies something to worry about. However, I anticipate that Mendenhall and Anae will simply start the best quarterback who gives BYU the best chance to win against Washington, and if it's Nelson, that means he will have had a heck of a summer... When it comes time for the decision to made, I expect that BYU's starting quarterback will be Jake Heaps. We're only about three months away from finding out whether that will indeed be the case.

" http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=10949480



"One of QB Jake Heaps' most notable attributes is the ability to get rid of the ball without having to "load up." There is very little wasted motion in his set-up and release; all of his throws seem to start and finish the same way." http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=10218129



" Considering all the hype associated with Heaps, there's a heap of pressure on him to deliver. Deliver he did during spring practices. When competing in seven-on-seven drills, Heaps played like a seasoned veteran, throwing tight spirals with laser-like precision, moving the chains and leading the offense to the end zone. "He's pretty good, isn't he?" coach Bronco Mendenhall said when asked about Heaps' mastery of the seven-on-seven drill. "Jake, just the background that he has from his high school system, the number of passes he's thrown, the number of championships he's won, the drop-back passing game is what he's suited best to..." Heaps finished high school early in order to enroll at BYU in January and get a jump-start on the 2010 season. "It's hard to remember sometimes that he's a true freshman," Mendenhall said. He called Heaps "phenomenal. He's a great young man, an excellent leader and one of the brightest prospects at quarterback that I've seen." Already, Heaps is looking to do something unprecedented in BYU football history — become the first Cougar true freshman QB to open a season as the starter. Considering his competitive nature and reports that Heaps loves to spend time in the film room, there's the sense that he did not complete high school early and arrive at BYU early to spend his first year redshirting or being relegated to the role of high-profile backup... "I thought he would have a rude awakening this spring at the (Division I) level," said offensive lineman Matt Reynolds. "But it's been just the opposite. It's been me who has had the awakening that he really is a great quarterback." "Obviously, we all know he's an amazing football player," Lark said. "You can see that when he comes out on the field. What people don't know is he's a good kid. We respect him. He's down to earth." While only two true freshmen quarterbacks have ever started a game at BYU, Doman said that Heaps isn't a typical true freshman. "Jake is far beyond his years. For an 18-year-old young man, he should be 18 right now, but he's not. He's acting like a 23-year-old veteran," said Doman. "The guy, physically, is ready to play quarterback at this level." Of course, Heaps has a lot to learn, but coaches have been throwing the entire playbook at him. "If there's any kid who can carry the attributes to be a guy who can (play as a true freshman)," Doman said, "he has those attributes." " http://www.ksl.com/?nid=272&sid=10550106



" The players, however, are starting to see one player emerge. Senior Brian Logan, who received Sports Illustrated All-American honorable mention recognition as a junior, has defended against each of the quarterbacks so far in spring practice, and he said Heaps is starting to separate himself from the pack. "I'm really impressed with Jake and his arm, accuracy and just his decision making," Logan said. "Now I understand why he was the No. 1 quarterback coming out (of high school). And it shows. I'm just excited he's on our team." Pretty high praise from a defensive back who has defended the likes of TCU's Andy Dalton, NFL prospects Sean Canfield (Oregon State), Sam Bradford (Oklahoma) and his former teammate, Max Hall. So what is it that is so impressive about the true freshman? "I think just his poise," Logan said. "He doesn't seem like a freshman at all. He seems 10 steps above the game, maybe that he's a junior or a senior. He doesn't carry himself like he's a freshman, and I think that's what makes him stand out." Logan said the team is a lot like the media and fans, watching the battle and eager to see who will be able to win the job. As for a prediction on who will eventually be named the starter, Logan tried to stay diplomatic. "I'm not too sure yet, but I would just say that Jake stands out to me the most," Logan said. "I think his poise and his attitude make him stand out." ...The former BYU quarterback said he has also been impressed with Heaps. "Jake is just a young phenom. He's got a long way to go to be a college quarterback," Doman said. "But just to be able to come out in this environment and be as successful as he's been is really unique." Doman added that the reason Heaps has been so successful in camp is his natural ability to pass the ball. "He can drop back and launch the ball around the field, which the other two guys can't quite do it the way he does it. But they're still pretty adequate that way," said Doman before noting that the hype surrounding Heaps' recruitment was warranted. "I would say every minute in recruiting was worth it." " http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=272&sid=10123776



"The word I get out of BYU's off-season throwing sessions is that among the quarterbacks... Jake Heaps... is throwing the best ball; not much of a news flash for those who have seen the rookie wing it during a successful BYU spring session and record-setting seasons as a high school standout in Washington." http://www.ksl.com/?nid=498&sid=10910507



"The coach has said nothing to suggest that he will rotate the top two finishers to take advantage of, perhaps, Heaps' superior passing... Heaps started fast and threw a prettier ball all camp... Teammates have been surprised by his humility, coachability and overall knowledge of the offense... Questions about going with Heaps as the starter and Nelson in certain situations that call for a run-pass option have been brushed aside by not just Mendenhall, but quarterbacks coach Brandon Doman and offensive coordinator Robert Anae as well. Their underlying sentiment: That's just not the BYU way." http://www.sltrib.com/collegesports/ci_14865916?source=rss



" Of Nelson, Doman said: "He's a different quarterback entirely (from Heaps). He's a more mobile quarterback. Probably not as strong of a passer as Jake… You look at their two different strengths and they're quite different." " http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700023658/BYU-football-Quarterback-position-is-still-up-in-the-air.html?s_cid=rss-28



"In most cases, starting a true freshman is a risky proposition, no matter the position. But if Heaps does earn the starting quarterback role for the Sept. 4 opener against Washington I would not be surprised to see him play well, specifically because he would have been with the team for eight months before the start." http://heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/darnell-dickson/article_1d547d82-44ff-11df-9c3c-001cc4c002e0.html



"Although Heaps is still a kid and his high school class is preparing for graduation, he is the only one of the three who has played consecutive seasons, albeit a prep schedule. It shows in his mastery of fundamentals, reading coverages and his comfort level... In BYU's current camp, that's the most glaring difference between Heaps and the other guys: his training. Heaps has worked with Greg Barton in Oregon since the fifth grade, perfecting his footwork, delivery and skill sets. He even devoured flash cards for deciphering cover two, cover three and other pass defenses while in elementary school. Barton's other pupils include Boise State's Kellen Moore, former Cal and current Green Bay Packers QB Aaron Rodgers and Tennessee's Eric Ainge. It is little wonder Heaps earned MVP honors at the Elite Eleven camp this past summer in California... Nelson... does not have Heaps' range nor the variety of passes... Heaps, although young, did the smart thing after enrolling at BYU in January. He kept his mouth shut, didn't yell at receivers and cornerbacks. He let his arm do the talking, and that got him respect from his elders... If you needed someone to take a grenade and chuck it 50 yards into a pillbox where a machine gun spits out lead, Heaps is your man." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022969/BYU-football-Competition-is-great-for-Cougs-QBs.html?s_cid=rss-28



"BYU worked four 7-on-7 sessions and one two-minute drill on Monday. Freshman quarterback Jake Heaps led the offense to scoring drives on both of his opportunities. "He's pretty good, isn't he?" Mendenhall said. "Jake has the background in the high school system and the number of passes he's thrown, and the number of championships he's won, the drop-back passing game is what he's suited best to do. There's not lot of difference in what he does in 7-on-7 and two minute. He's having a nice spring season." " http://heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/article_67b2e638-daad-5877-b68a-cf6aeebffc42.html



"Anything's possible, from Nelson's never starting another college game to his fending off Heaps for two seasons to something in between, such as a consistent change-up role to utilize his running ability. And what, exactly, would have to happen to make Nelson's transferring worthwhile? None of the above, according to him. "Football's gravy," he said, explaining that qualifying for medical admission will determine his success at BYU... The basic examination of Heaps and Nelson leads to easy conclusions. There's no comparison in the way they throw the football. So the issue is whether Nelson's experience, leadership and playmaking ability will enable him to overcome Heaps' pure passing talent. [Remember] Nelson was struggling by the end of that 2006 season in Logan, having lost six games after debuting as a starter with a storybook comeback against Fresno State." http://www.sltrib.com/collegesports/ci_14820381?source=rss



"Heaps is getting more reps in spring camp, but only because he has kept the offense on the field with longer drives when given the chance... "We are watching every one of these situations closely," Mendenhall said when it was suggested that Heaps is outplaying the others." http://www.sltrib.com/collegesports/ci_14789483?source=rss



"It's interesting to see fan reaction and evaluation of the BYU quarterback battle. Most of it (except for those who can sneak in as family or former players) comes from what the media is reporting, since practices are closed. I see a lot of number crunching by fans that seems to indicate that true freshman Jake Heaps is in the lead. Well, take it from someone who has regularly attended practice: He is. ...Forget completion percentage, touchdowns, interceptions - the bottom line is that Heaps consistently moves the offense. It doesn't matter if he's playing with or against the 1's, 2's or 3's, he gets first downs and gets his team into the end zone. Regardless of what the coaches decide about who starts — and I think they will give Riley a chance to show his stuff in games this year — Heaps has already shown he's a great fit for this offense." http://heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/darnell-dickson/article_43f8b9b4-3db4-11df-80e1-001cc4c03286.html



" Ironically, Mendenhall’s declaration that Heaps and Nelson had moved ahead of Lark came in response to my assertion, followed by a question, that Heaps alone seemed to be separating himself from the pack.

That’s why Mendenhall had this telling remark about Nelson, whose numbers in camp so far have clearly fallen short of those put up by Heaps: “I also think though that the grit and determination and kind of the leadership that Riley is playing with is really a strong force as well. Too early to call a leader at this point." " http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=13537&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



"The more the Cougars do their 11-on-11 scrimmages, the more a pair of freshmen stand out: Jake Heaps and Joshua Quezada. Heaps was nothng short of brilliant on Tuesday, going 7-for-7 for 83 yards in a two-minute drill. He completed passes to O’Neill Chambers, Matt Marshall, Marcus Mathews and McKay Jacobson on the drive and then threw a short TD pass to Hafoka. Seriously, Max Hall did it no better. Riley Nelson and James Lark mostly just handed the ball off when they got their turns, but Mendenhall said that was “really just coincidence” and that nothing should be read into the which plays are being called for which quarterbacks. “The plays being called [through six practices] have been almost identical for the three quarterbacks, other than a little bit more run stuff for Riley because that’s maybe a little bit more of his strength,” Mendenhall said. “Maybe it is just because of the success rate of the bigger plays downfield, that [Heaps] might get more of those [play] calls.” Still, if the starter had to be named right now, I would be surprised if it was not Jake Heaps." http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=13204&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



" More comments from Mendenhall after Monday’s practice: ...On freshman Jake Heaps’ progress:

“Jake is doing really a nice job. It is hard to remember some times that he’s a true freshman, a true freshman that has practiced with us for five days, and to be performing the way he is, I’ve been very, very impressed. That’s not to say that Riley [Nelson] and James [Lark] aren’t doing a great job, but just the thought that it’s a true freshman with five practices in the spring and he has the poise and confidence and the execution that he has so far, it’s been impressive.” " http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=13164&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Bronco acknowledged Nelson has the leadership edge.



Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start.

1- Bronco does not say that Nelson has a leadership edge. But he does say that the most important thing is TDs, and that's all Heaps.

"Ultimately, leading the team into the end zone has to be acknowledged," Mendenhall said. "I think Jake did a nice job of that today. I also think, though, that the grit and determination and leadership that Riley is playing with is a strong force as well. Too early to call a leader at this point."




I guess we read it differently. He says leading the team into the endzone has to "be acknowledged," and then notes that Heaps did "a nice job of that today." He then said that Riley's leadership etc. that he is "playing with" is a strong force as well, which I read to mean that Nelson has the advantage there generally. I think the only part we can agree on the meaning of is the last sentence: "Too early to call a leader at this point."


2- Doman said that if a QB divides the team by trying to politically rally support from individual players over the other QBs, they won't start. I didn't see him say anywhere what you said he said though. What quote specifically are you referring to?




I said "Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start." Doman's quote in the article is "If it's not about BYU, if it's not about this team and this place, they won't start," he said. "That would be the most important criteria. I don't care how good they are, or who they are, or if they're the best player out there. If it isn't about the team, they're not going to play. They know that."



I don't know of any way to read that quote that doesn't indicate that talent/skill etc. is not going to be determinative of starting.


3- Specific articles I would have to look up. But off the top of my head, Chambers and Logan seemed to prefer Heaps in their quotes. Apo and Kasen prefer Heaps. Dylan Collie seems to prefer Heaps. Ashworth has been very impressed with Heaps, and I think Brandon Bradley made similar comments as well. Wrubell, Drew, Sorenson, Harmon, and Dickson have all talked about how Heaps is the better pure-passer and WR-pleaser. I think even Doman and/or Bronco may have acknolwedge Heaps as the better pocker passer by now (not sure, just going by memory). I'm sorry that I don't have all the links right now. Is there anyone else that remembers seeing/reading/hearing comments like this, from any of these players?


You've provided a lot of quotes, but none of them involve a player or coach indicating that they trust Heaps over Nelson, or that they would prefer Heaps to Nelson. Also, nothing from receivers. Remember, this is a thread about leadership and trust, not about the other aspects of the battle. I started this thread to avoid derailing another thread, so please try to keep it on that topic.
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M
Mars
snoscythe wrote:
I guess we read it differently. He says leading the team into the endzone has to "be acknowledged," and then notes that Heaps did "a nice job of that today." He then said that Riley's leadership etc. that he is "playing with" is a strong force as well, which I read to mean that Nelson has the advantage there generally. I think the only part we can agree on the meaning of is the last sentence: "Too early to call a leader at this point."



I said "Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start." Doman's quote in the article is "If it's not about BYU, if it's not about this team and this place, they won't start," he said. "That would be the most important criteria. I don't care how good they are, or who they are, or if they're the best player out there. If it isn't about the team, they're not going to play. They know that." I don't know of any way to read that quote that doesn't indicate that talent/skill etc. is not going to be determinative of starting.



You've provided a lot of quotes, but none of them involve a player or coach indicating that they trust Heaps over Nelson, or that they would prefer Heaps to Nelson. Also, nothing from receivers. Remember, this is a thread about leadership and trust, not about the other aspects of the battle. I started this thread to avoid derailing another thread, so please try to keep it on that topic.

1- Bronco said that "ultimately" TDs were most important. I took that to mean "at the end of the day", "most importantly". And while he said Heaps was better that day, it's a fact that Heaps had more TDs than Nelson over camp (7 to 5), and he had 5 TDs to Nelson's 1 over the first 11 (of 14) days before giving Nelson 50% more series in the "garbage time scrimmages".



2- You think Bronco said Nelson is a better leader because he said "Riley is playing with leadership"? Bronco also said of Heaps: "He's a great young man, an excellent leader... Heaps has all of the inherent qualities you want in a college quarterback. His athletic ability, poise, leadership skills, winning background and pro potential all indicate he can be the starter when BYU opens the season September 4th."



3- Doman said, if you care about yourself first and the team second, your talent level doesn't matter. I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you care about the team first, talent then matters most. And I also think it's safe to say that Heaps and Nelson care about the team first, or Heaps would be at one of the other 29 schools that offered him, or he wouldn't have finished high school months early just to be here now. Guys like Drew Phillips ain't even in Provo yet (soon though!).



4- Did you really skip over Logan's comments? Go back over and re-read them. Chambers' comments I couldn't find. I think it's because they came during unofficial, pre-spring workouts, and I didn't search back that far. Who else here remembers reading what he said? Doman and Bronco say he has the better arm, and that he's the best QB running the 2-minute offense (where almost all of BYU's scores against Utah have come the past 4 years). Jake has also been called "brilliant" at 11-on-11, a real stand out. Bronco even intimated that coming into spring ball, Jake had more "poise and confidence" than the two older QBs.



5- And finally, Nelson says he wouldn't mind being the back-up this year and focusing on med school, while Heaps has been tutoring under a professional trainer since 5th grade. That says a lot about their respective mindsets. Of course, Nelson has gone 2-6 as a starter over the past 3 years, while Heaps has gone something like 35-1.
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Brayden Green
Mars wrote:
I guess we read it differently. He says leading the team into the endzone has to "be acknowledged," and then notes that Heaps did "a nice job of that today." He then said that Riley's leadership etc. that he is "playing with" is a strong force as well, which I read to mean that Nelson has the advantage there generally. I think the only part we can agree on the meaning of is the last sentence: "Too early to call a leader at this point."



I said "Doman even went so far as to say that talent/skill/best-player would not be determinative of who would start." Doman's quote in the article is "If it's not about BYU, if it's not about this team and this place, they won't start," he said. "That would be the most important criteria. I don't care how good they are, or who they are, or if they're the best player out there. If it isn't about the team, they're not going to play. They know that." I don't know of any way to read that quote that doesn't indicate that talent/skill etc. is not going to be determinative of starting.



You've provided a lot of quotes, but none of them involve a player or coach indicating that they trust Heaps over Nelson, or that they would prefer Heaps to Nelson. Also, nothing from receivers. Remember, this is a thread about leadership and trust, not about the other aspects of the battle. I started this thread to avoid derailing another thread, so please try to keep it on that topic.

1- Bronco said that "ultimately" TDs were most important. I took that to mean "at the end of the day", "most importantly". And while he said Heaps was better that day, it's a fact that Heaps had more TDs than Nelson over camp (7 to 5), and he had 5 TDs to Nelson's 1 over the first 11 (of 14) days before giving Nelson 50% more series in the "garbage time scrimmages".



2- You think Bronco said Nelson is a better leader because he said "Riley is playing with leadership"? Bronco also said of Heaps: "He's a great young man, an excellent leader... Heaps has all of the inherent qualities you want in a college quarterback. His athletic ability, poise, leadership skills, winning background and pro potential all indicate he can be the starter when BYU opens the season September 4th."



3- Doman said, if you care about yourself first and the team second, your talent level doesn't matter. I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you care about the team first, talent then matters most. And I also think it's safe to say that Heaps and Nelson care about the team first, or Heaps would be at one of the other 29 schools that offered him, or he wouldn't have finished high school months early just to be here now. Guys like Drew Phillips ain't even in Provo yet (soon though!).



4- Did you really skip over Logan's comments? Go back over and re-read them. Chambers' comments I couldn't find. I think it's because they came during unofficial, pre-spring workouts, and I didn't search back that far. Who else here remembers reading what he said? Doman and Bronco say he has the better arm, and that he's the best QB running the 2-minute offense (where almost all of BYU's scores against Utah have come the past 4 years). Jake has also been called "brilliant" at 11-on-11, a real stand out. Bronco even intimated that coming into spring ball, Jake had more "poise and confidence" than the two older QBs.



5- And finally, Nelson says he wouldn't mind being the back-up this year and focusing on med school, while Heaps has been tutoring under a professional trainer since 5th grade. That says a lot about their respective mindsets. Of course, Nelson has gone 2-6 as a starter over the past 3 years, while Heaps has gone something like 35-1.


C'mon mars, you know that a 2-6 record over the last 3 years, not to mention scrub minutes, and MULTIPLE spring practices mean WAAAAY more than a 35-1 record with multiple state championships, because it's at the D 1 level.
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Florwood
Mars wrote:


Doman said that Heaps isn't a typical true freshman. "Jake is far beyond his years. For an 18-year-old young man, he should be 18 right now, but he's not. He's acting like a 23-year-old veteran," said Doman.


Great...so after a couple of years, we'll still be getting the "BYU plays 25 year olds against my 18 year olds" garbage. :lol:
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snoscythe
Logan at no point said he trusted Heaps over Nelson. He mentioned that his poise and attitude made Heaps stand out. You're reaching to make that into a statement about Heaps as a leader. Again, though, nothing from the receivers other than Wrubell's commentary on the infamous numbers.



Jay Drew (who was there when Bronco made the comments) agrees that Bronco was saying Nelson had the edge on leadership:



http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=13537&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



All of your quotes have done nothing to show that Heaps has a leadership edge. Bronco has said he has leadership skills, even said that he has surprising leadership skills for a freshman, but he has never given him the edge in comparison to anyone--just comments on Heaps vs what you'd expect from a freshman. What we do have is Bronco, when questioned about whether Heaps is separating himself from Nelson and Lark, Bronco responds with a comments about how Heaps and Nelson have separated from Lark, but that the two were neck and neck, supported by the observations that Heaps found the endzone that day which has to be considered, offset by comments on how you have to factor in Nelson's leadership and grit. Me and Jay Drew both read that to be a statement that Nelson has the leadership edge, and that leadership edge is further shown by the fact that Nelson, not Heaps, is leading the summer sessions.



Also--show me where Bronco said Heaps had "more poise and confidence" than Larks and Nelson--you put it in quotes, I'd like to see where that came from.



As for the Doman quote--it says exactly what I said it said--numbers alone won't decide the race. It was a telling comment given the way Heaps came into pre-Spring workouts.
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Logan at no point said he trusted Heaps over Nelson...



Jay Drew (who was there when Bronco made the comments) agrees that Bronco was saying Nelson had the edge on leadership...



All of your quotes have done nothing to show that Heaps has a leadership edge.

1- Do you think Logan views Heaps and Nelson as equals? Because that's an almost impossible conclusion:

"The players... are starting to see one player emerge. Senior Brian Logan... has defended against each of the quarterbacks so far in spring practice, and he said Heaps is starting to separate himself from the pack. "I'm really impressed with Jake and his arm, accuracy and just his decision making," Logan said. "Now I understand why he was the No. 1 quarterback coming out (of high school). And it shows. I'm just excited he's on our team." ...what is it that is so impressive about the true freshman? "I think just his poise," Logan said. "He doesn't seem like a freshman at all. He seems 10 steps above the game, maybe that he's a junior or a senior. He doesn't carry himself like he's a freshman, and I think that's what makes him stand out." ...for a prediction on who will eventually be named the starter, Logan tried to stay diplomatic. "I'm not too sure yet, but I would just say that Jake stands out to me the most," Logan said. "I think his poise and his attitude make him stand out."

Logan is seeing Heaps emerge. Logan said Heaps is seperating himself from the others. He says Heaps is a legitimate #1 (which Nelson isn't). Heaps seems 10 steps ahead of the game (what is Riley, 5?). While Nelson is a sophomore, Heaps seems like a Junior or Senior. Heaps stands out for not seeming like a freshman- does Nelson? Heaps stands out the most, more than Riley. He has more poise and attitue.



2- Jay Drew asked Bronco point-blank if Heaps hadn't proven that he passed Nelson already. Bronco hedged, saying, well, Nelson has "grit". Which Jay Drew said made him laugh out loud. He says it's obvious that Heaps is the better QB. And Bronco says Heaps is an "excellent leader" and has all of the leadership skills necesary to start for BYU against Washington on opening day. And when Bronco says "it's not that Nelson isn't good, but man does Jake have poise and confidence!", that's like saying "I'm not being rude, but you're ugly." It's still rude- The denial actually acts as proof.



3- And you have at NO POINT shown anything that remotely suggests that coaches think Nelson has the leadership edge. So if you want to boil this entire thread down to "the coaches said nothing", well that's a waste. I've shown so much more than that to support my position. This whole thing has been a one-sided affair up to this point (kind of like... spring practice for Jake).



4- Nelson's best days were his senior year of high school, while Heaps' entire career has been building him to this point to lead BYU's football team:

""Heaps... is the only one of the three who has played consecutive seasons, albeit a prep schedule. It shows in his mastery of fundamentals, reading coverages and his comfort level... In BYU's current camp, that's the most glaring difference between Heaps and the other guys: his training. Heaps has worked with Greg Barton in Oregon since the fifth grade, perfecting his footwork, delivery and skill sets. He even devoured flash cards for deciphering cover two, cover three and other pass defenses while in elementary school. Barton's other pupils include Boise State's Kellen Moore, former Cal and current Green Bay Packers QB Aaron Rodgers and Tennessee's Eric Ainge. It is little wonder Heaps earned MVP honors at the Elite Eleven camp this past summer in California."

Nelson is rusty, less talented, less confident, less poised. And he doesn't share the same desire Heaps does. Riley would just be happy gaining his degree? You think Heaps would be happy with that? Heaps is the guy a team and an offense can rally behind. Nelson can hand the ball off.



5- Why the "leadership" debate in the first place? What does "leadership" matter in the QB competition if along with a slight possible "leadership" advantage comes less talent, a weaker arm, less first downs, less TDs, and more punts? Because that's part of the same Riley Nelson package, and it's impossible to ignore. He's not starter material right now, not with Heaps at BYU. Who is the bigger leader, the starter or the guy on the bench? The guy on the bench is more of a cheerleader than anything else, and I think Nelson, like Gaskins before him, can excel in that role.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Logan at no point said he trusted Heaps over Nelson...



Jay Drew (who was there when Bronco made the comments) agrees that Bronco was saying Nelson had the edge on leadership...



All of your quotes have done nothing to show that Heaps has a leadership edge.

1- Do you think Logan views Heaps and Nelson as equals? Because that's an almost impossible conclusion:

"The players... are starting to see one player emerge. Senior Brian Logan... has defended against each of the quarterbacks so far in spring practice, and he said Heaps is starting to separate himself from the pack. "I'm really impressed with Jake and his arm, accuracy and just his decision making," Logan said. "Now I understand why he was the No. 1 quarterback coming out (of high school). And it shows. I'm just excited he's on our team." ...what is it that is so impressive about the true freshman? "I think just his poise," Logan said. "He doesn't seem like a freshman at all. He seems 10 steps above the game, maybe that he's a junior or a senior. He doesn't carry himself like he's a freshman, and I think that's what makes him stand out." ...for a prediction on who will eventually be named the starter, Logan tried to stay diplomatic. "I'm not too sure yet, but I would just say that Jake stands out to me the most," Logan said. "I think his poise and his attitude make him stand out."

Logan is seeing Heaps emerge. Logan said Heaps is seperating himself from the others. He says Heaps is a legitimate #1 (which Nelson isn't). Heaps seems 10 steps ahead of the game (what is Riley, 5?). While Nelson is a sophomore, Heaps seems like a Junior or Senior. Heaps stands out for not seeming like a freshman- does Nelson? Heaps stands out the most, more than Riley. He has more poise and attitue.



2- Jay Drew asked Bronco point-blank if Heaps hadn't proven that he passed Nelson already. Bronco hedged, saying, well, Nelson has "grit". Which Jay Drew said made him laugh out loud. He says it's obvious that Heaps is the better QB. And Bronco says Heaps is an "excellent leader" and has all of the leadership skills necesary to start for BYU against Washington on opening day. And when Bronco says "it's not that Nelson isn't good, but man does Jake have poise and confidence!", that's like saying "I'm not being rude, but you're ugly." It's still rude- The denial actually acts as proof.



3- And you have at NO POINT shown anything that remotely suggests that coaches think Nelson has the leadership edge. So if you want to boil this entire thread down to "the coaches said nothing", well that's a waste. I've shown so much more than that to support my position. This whole thing has been a one-sided affair up to this point (kind of like... spring practice for Jake).



4- Nelson's best days were his senior year of high school, while Heaps' entire career has been building him to this point to lead BYU's football team:

""Heaps... is the only one of the three who has played consecutive seasons, albeit a prep schedule. It shows in his mastery of fundamentals, reading coverages and his comfort level... In BYU's current camp, that's the most glaring difference between Heaps and the other guys: his training. Heaps has worked with Greg Barton in Oregon since the fifth grade, perfecting his footwork, delivery and skill sets. He even devoured flash cards for deciphering cover two, cover three and other pass defenses while in elementary school. Barton's other pupils include Boise State's Kellen Moore, former Cal and current Green Bay Packers QB Aaron Rodgers and Tennessee's Eric Ainge. It is little wonder Heaps earned MVP honors at the Elite Eleven camp this past summer in California."

Nelson is rusty, less talented, less confident, less poised. And he doesn't share the same desire Heaps does. Riley would just be happy gaining his degree? You think Heaps would be happy with that? Heaps is the guy a team and an offense can rally behind. Nelson can hand the ball off.



5- Why the "leadership" debate in the first place? What does "leadership" matter in the QB competition if along with a slight possible "leadership" advantage comes less talent, a weaker arm, less first downs, less TDs, and more punts? Because that's part of the same Riley Nelson package, and it's impossible to ignore. He's not starter material right now, not with Heaps at BYU. Who is the bigger leader, the starter or the guy on the bench? The guy on the bench is more of a cheerleader than anything else, and I think Nelson, like Gaskins before him, can excel in that role.


Mars--the topic is leadership. If you want to talk about all the other stuff, there are plenty of threads elsewhere. Keep it on topic.



Your #1 isn't on topic. Logan at no point mentioned anything to do with leadership unless you are straining to interpret "poise" as leadership.



Your #2 goes against what Drew actually said: "In other words, Mendenhall is saying that sheer numbers alone won’t be used to determine a winner in the quarterback sweepstakes. Intangibles such as leadership and experience are going to be considered as well. In that regard, Nelson holds the edge." Drew also never said that comment made him laugh, much less laugh out loud. Again--the issue on this thread is leadership....if you aren't going to address the topic, don't bother responding.



#3--Yes I have--Bronco's words and Drew's first-hand interpretation that backs up my interpretation. As for your claim that you have shown so much more than that--again you mistake your talent arguments for leadership. You haven't shown a single thing other than a DB talking about poise, and that after you claimed the WRs were talking about trust. You've promised a lot, but you haven't really delivered anything.



#4--Your first assertion is garbage--Heaps best days were in high school as well at this point. Can I compare my fantasy future for Nelson to what Heaps hasn't done yet and declare victory? Because that's what you are trying to do there. You can do better than that. At least give your strawman some girth. As for the rest of it, all of that is well and good, but I'm not sure how all of that tutoring/book learning translates to leadership. Ryan Leaf was an immensely talented fellow who could read any defense like it was put on the field by Dr. Seuss.....but he was a horrible leader. I'm not saying Heaps is a horrible leader, but I do question his leadership after the attitude he arrived at camp with. Leaders don't show up late to voluntary workouts and pick and choose what they will do. They get there early, they do it all, and they leave late. Heaps is doing that now, but it took a bit of encouragement from some Olinemen to get him to that point. As for your newest assertion about Nelson just being happy with a degree, what you call a lack of desire, I call humility. I trust Bronco's assessment of his "grit, determination, and leadership."



#5--because the coaches disagree with your conclusion--they acknowledge that it is a tight, neck-and-neck race, and with gutting of the leadership core from last season (Pitta, Hall, Unga, Tonga), there is a real need for leadership on offense this season. I'm not saying leadership is going to be the deciding factor, but it is going to have some real sway in the decision matrix.
M
Mars


You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. :lol:





The leadership on this year's offense comes from the offensive line. That's why Max Hall gave up more sacks as a senior than he did his first year starting. That's why Bronco took them golfing with him. Heaps will be fine behind his blockers. Not to mention Jacobsen, Chambers, Ashworth, Hafoka, DiLuigi, and Kariya. Cade Cooper wasn't the starter in 2007 just because Jonny Harline and Curtis Brown were gone. Same situation this year.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Cade Cooper wasn't the starter in 2007 just because Jonny Harline and Curtis Brown were gone. Same situation this year.


Yeah...it was because he broke his foot. Nice try with the non-sequitor though.


Mars wrote:
The leadership on this year's offense comes from the offensive line. That's why Max Hall gave up more sacks as a senior than he did his first year starting. That's why Bronco took them golfing with him.


Well, if who he takes golfing shows who the leaders are, Riley has it locked up since Bronco took him golfing in the first charity tournament and left Heaps at home: http://blogs.sltrib.com/byu/index.php?p=16311&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1



If your golf theory had any merit, Matt Reynolds would have been in the group (he wasn't), but I'll look forward to seeing Dalin Tollestrup calling coin tosses in September.
M
Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Yeah... it was because he broke his foot. Nice try with the non-sequitor though.

He wasn't the starter when he break his foot either, since you don't seem to remember 3 years ago. His back-up experience or leadership didn't seem to matter much to Bronco/Doman/Anae compared to Max Hall's talent. Stick to the subject please.
F
Florwood
Any way to block Sno and Mars just when they're responding to each other? Any other time, they're both the best as posters.
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