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Heaps

by SpiffCoug · 5/29/2010

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SpiffCoug
I say no. So I'm inclined to lean towards Nelson as the starter in 2010. Of course, as fall camp starts and summer reports come in, I'm more than willing to change my opinion.
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HoosierCougar
My impression is that this job is totally up for grabs. Each brings different skills to the field and there is no clear winner at this point.



Here's my real question: If Nelson starts in 2010, does 1 year in the program let Heaps take the definitive lead in the race, and if so, does he start in 2011 while Nelson rides the pine for his final year in Provo?



Otherwise, does Heaps Redshirt and start in 2012 as a Soph?



I have no answers, just trying to foster discussion...
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Cougarbib
Which ever one starts will get injured and the other(s) will get to play and then it will sort itelf out. Don't forget Lark and Munns. They may show up in the mix. I hope all 4 are aas good as hyped and if so it will all work out.
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SpiffCoug
HoosierCougar wrote:
My impression is that this job is totally up for grabs. Each brings different skills to the field and there is no clear winner at this point.



Here's my real question: If Nelson starts in 2010, does 1 year in the program let Heaps take the definitive lead in the race, and if so, does he start in 2011 while Nelson rides the pine for his final year in Provo?



Otherwise, does Heaps Redshirt and start in 2012 as a Soph?



I have no answers, just trying to foster discussion...

Yeah, that's one of my questions too. If you don't start Heaps, you're basically committing to Nelson for the next two years. Although, there is a chance, you could RS Heaps, this year and get him Detmer-like time as a redshirt freshman in 2011 (i.e. three or four starts and several other extensive playing time periods).



So far, through one spring camp, I think Nelson should be the starter. But I don't know if Heaps will be starter worthy by the end of fall camp 2010 or spring ball 2011.
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Ddawg
It will be an interesting summer to see how the Coug QB race shapes up. I think the coaches are leaning & have opinions right now - but no final decision has been made. They don't need to just yet.

8)
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Mars


Should a coach start the best player, regardless of whether they are an upperclassman or an underclassman?
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:


Should a coach start the best player, regardless of whether they are an upperclassman or an underclassman?


Absolutely--if you are defining best-player as the one who wins you games in 2010. And regardless of stars too.
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Absolutely--if you are defining best-player as the one who wins you games in 2010. And regardless of stars too.

Then you start Heaps. As every credentialed member of the media has pointed out to the public already.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Absolutely--if you are defining best-player as the one who wins you games in 2010. And regardless of stars too.

Then you start Heaps. As every credentialed member of the media has pointed out to the public already.


Like I said, regardless of stars. Media thought Paul Shoemaker and Ben Olson were pretty hot too. How did they do? How did the lesser starred guys who started instead of them do? There's a reason these guys aren't coaching.....
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WestCoastCat
Sno that doesnt wash... Olsen never played a down for BYU and didnt start a game until after his mission. He was a casualty of those that go on a mission and cant come back to their old selves. Sad story ...but its not Heaps story. Really is shockingly sad how far you are reaching to prop your boy up.



Heaps isnt Olsen... or anyone else for that matter. He is his own man.



Nice try though to throw him in with a some guys that didnt make it... frankly the most recent #1 qb's over last few years along with MVP of Elite 11 have had stellar careers... sorry to pee in your cheerios or maybe not.
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snoscythe
WestCoastCat wrote:
Sno that doesnt wash... Olsen never played a down for BYU and didnt start a game until after his mission. He was a casualty of those that go on a mission and cant come back to their old selves. Sad story ...but its not Heaps story. Really is shockingly sad how far you are reaching to prop your boy up.



Heaps isnt Olsen... or anyone else for that matter. He is his own man.



Nice try though to throw him in with a some guys that didnt make it... frankly the most recent #1 qb's over last few years along with MVP of Elite 11 have had stellar careers... sorry to pee in your cheerios or maybe not.


Yeah, I just happened to lump him in with the only other 5* boy wonder QB prospects BYU has ever landed. Do you argue that BYU's last two 5* recruits that the Utah media got into a love tizzy with never played a meaningful snap at BYU, and the one that actually played anywhere struggled to keep the starting spot, much less win games? Yeah, I lumped him in with those guys, because that is the entire sample set that we can compare Heaps to. Just showing you how accurate the Utah media has been in projecting starting quarterbacks at BYU. Both Olson and Shoemaker rode the pine at BYU while lesser 4* or lower recruits led the team, despite the fact that the media was in near unison in declaring the benchwarmer the better player.



As for the other #1 QBs over the last few years, they all came out with raw scores much better than Heaps--and they were 5* talent across the board. Not all of the ranking services agree that Heaps is 5*, much less the #1 QB.



Why don't you compare other high school QBs who came out of high school with a raw rating of 5.9 and started for a D-I team as a freshman in the last 5 years with any success???? Maybe because there aren't any?



You compare him to Barkley, but you fail to acknowledge that (a) Barkley struggled to win with much better talent surrounding him than Heaps will at BYU, and (b) Heaps' rating actually would have had him the #8-#10 quarterback prospect had he come out a year sooner. A better comparison would be the likes of AJ McCarron, Tom Savage, or Andrew Maxwell....you know, guys who had the same raw scores as Heaps, not "the other #1 QBs over the last few years" and ignore the fact that Heaps is only #1 because he came out in a weak class.
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WestCoastCat
Sno- LOLOLOL you really are a piece of work you know that? Yeah the ONLY media source that likes Heaps is Utah, whatever.



Like I said, comparing Heaps to Olsen is like apples and oranges... but you are so paranoid that your boy isnt going to win the starting spot you cant help yourself but try and pull Heaps down. Sorry not buying into your garbage because thats what it is. Pure stench... The only internet ranking service that doesnt have Heaps at #1 pro style is ESPN and that is easily explained.



Barkley had struggles his freshman year wow thats earth shattering. Bet Pete didnt know that was going to happen. Oh and what about Ohio state coach Jim Tressel. You think he didnt know that Pryor was going to struggle his freshman year? He put his time in with Pryor and the the kid let them to a Rose bowl win his Sophomore year. Freshman stuggles are normal and natural... you have to put your time in with the younsters early and then the payout is usually worth it.



This is the kid that was ranked the #1 QB for 2010 not just by the internet sites but by...



Sporting News

USA Today

Parade

Sports Illustrated

Elite 11 MVP



Just to name of few of his accolades... now I know you are going to want to rip those people and publications apart and say they dont mean anything but... really... dude... try and restrain yourself you just make yourself look stupid.
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SpiffCoug
For the record. Here is my official opinion on Heaps:



I'm very excited for Heaps. I think he is going to be an absolute stud by the time he's done at BYU. I think he could wind up with better stats than Max Hall, and leave the school beloved like John Beck. I think the other MWC teams are going to throw a party when Heaps finally leaves, because it means they have a chance to beat BYU again.



I think he has a chance to do some things no BYU QB has ever done. Like win the conference three times and win three bowl games. I think he's going to finish in the top three of all-time greats at BYU at the position.



It's a great time to be a BYU fan.



Despite my excitement for Heaps and what I think he will do before he leaves. I'm willing to be patient with him. I want him to maximize his potential and talent. And I think that can best be accomplished by red-shirting him and not throwing him to the wolves as a freshman. I think he can be successful if he plays and starts all four years. I just think he can be MORE successful with a red-shirt.



I do think the discussion the last few days have been fun and entertaining. I don't don't have any hard feelings towards anyone who disagrees with me and I don't think I've attacked anyone or been attacked by anyone personally.



I do think that those who are in the Heaps camp don't seem to see the race as close as the numbers and reports indicate. They seem to buy into the hype more than I and don't seem to be willing to be patient with him and his development.



I also don't think many of the concerns that are being brought up by Sno and myself are being fully comprehended by the pro-Heaps camp. (For instance, just because Heaps was the Number 1 QB in 2010 doesn't mean he is as good as previous Number 1 Qbs. The Pro-Heaps camp seems to believe all Number 1 QBs are equal. Again, the stats, numbers and reports, don't prove this to be the case.)



I'd like to think I'm open to changing my mind. I just don't think anyone has presented a case for Heaps as strongly as I've made a case for Nelson.



I haven't seen a case made as to why we're going to win MORE games with Heaps in 2010. Because if we aren't, then shouldn't the default position be towards developing Heaps and letting him learn?
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snoscythe
WestCoastCat wrote:
Sno- LOLOLOL you really are a piece of work you know that? Yeah the ONLY media source that likes Heaps is Utah, whatever.



Like I said, comparing Heaps to Olsen is like apples and oranges... but you are so paranoid that your boy isnt going to win the starting spot you cant help yourself but try and pull Heaps down. Sorry not buying into your garbage because thats what it is. Pure stench... The only internet ranking service that doesnt have Heaps at #1 pro style is ESPN and that is easily explained.



Barkley had struggles his freshman year wow thats earth shattering. Bet Pete didnt know that was going to happen. Oh and what about Ohio state coach Jim Tressel. You think he didnt know that Pryor was going to struggle his freshman year? He put his time in with Pryor and the the kid let them to a Rose bowl win his Sophomore year. Freshman stuggles are normal and natural... you have to put your time in with the younsters early and then the payout is usually worth it.



This is the kid that was ranked the #1 QB for 2010 not just by the internet sites but by...



Sporting News

USA Today

Parade

Sports Illustrated

Elite 11 MVP



Just to name of few of his accolades... now I know you are going to want to rip those people and publications apart and say they dont mean anything but... really... dude... try and restrain yourself you just make yourself look stupid.


Go back, look at the raw scores, and tell me where Heaps would have ranked in any of the past 5 recruiting classes. #1 in your class is only as good as your class. I've told you where his 5.9 Rivals ranking would have put him if he came out the year before....do you dispute that? He would have been #6 at best in 2008, #7 at best in 2007, and #5 at best in 2006.



So why do you want to look at Barkley and Pryor, when Heaps' talent evaluation indicates he is more likely a Pat Devlin, Robert Marve, Star Jackson, or Andrew Maxwell....how well did those guys do their freshman seasons? I could care less that Heaps was #1 in the country when that was only because he came out in a weak class. The same recruiting services you are putting all of your stock in bear out the truth of that.



Heaps has great potential, but we are putting the cart ahead of the horse in naming him the Golden Boy of the future. As I have shown you, we've had two of those quarterbacks in camp before, and they both flamed out after very promising Springs. Yes, Heaps won all sorts of awards playing 7-on-7 ball in the Summer.....against the same weak competition that got him his #1 ranking. Take a harder look at the recruiting stats, scores, and rankings, and show me where I'm wrong. Show me where Heaps is anywhere comparable to the #1 QBs the past five years when you look at the raw scores the services give. He's not in the ballpark. Then look at the guys whose scores he does compare too....that #1 ranking is only as good as the quality at #2 and below. It's like graduating at the top of your high school class with a 3.8 GPA. You're pretty smart, but that doesn't mean you're as smart as the valedictorians each of the past 5 years who graduated with a 4.0. Yeah, you're a valedictorian, but that only tells me how you compare to this year's class. The GPA tells me how you compare to the guys in the past.



Am I saying Heaps sucks? Heck no. Even on a raw score, he is one of the top prospects BYU has brought into QB camp with Jimmy Mac, Ben Olson, and Paul Shoemaker. Unfortunately, only one of those panned out, and that was the one that was brought along slowly and learned from the bench. What I think is that most of the fans have been star-struck by the #1 ranking and his 7-on-7 work and are willing to overlook the fact that the offense has been more productive with Nelson under center with 22 men on the field than Heaps in the Spring.



I think Heaps will be very good, but I think people are getting ahead of themselves calling for him to start this season. Riding the pine for a season is a tried and true method, especially when we have someone who is more game-ready right now in Riley Nelson to take the reins for a season. A redshirt is not the end of the world if Heaps doesn't take the starting spot. We've seen Bronco start an underclassman over an incumbent upperclassman QB before (Beck over Berry), so there is no ground for the argument that if Heaps doesn't get the job this year he can't take it next year.
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Italics
#1 QB recruit in the country

Has played in several big games and pressure situations

Is said in nearly every report to have a stronger and more accurate harm than Nelson

Seems to be most preferred by BYU's WR's

Seems to be the most feared/respected by BYU's secondary



I'm not certain there's much difference in "experience" between these two.



So do we want to put Nelson in because he runs the ball a bit better? Doesn't seem like something of much importance to me. A running quarterback is not going to be the difference maker.
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Mars
kitic77 wrote:
I also don't think many of the concerns that are being brought up by Sno and myself are being fully comprehended by the pro-Heaps camp. (For instance, just because Heaps was the Number 1 QB in 2010 doesn't mean he is as good as previous Number 1 Qbs. The Pro-Heaps camp seems to believe all Number 1 QBs are equal. Again, the stats, numbers and reports, don't prove this to be the case.)
I didn't address this because I didn't see the point before. It's not really a concern to me, as it doesn't affect anything at BYU. Heaps isn't competing with the #1 QB from the 2009 or 2008 class, he's competing with 3-star Riley Nelson (who was a 0-star kid coming out of high school). http://byu.scout.com/a.z?s=338&p=8&c=1&nid=3771671 In fact, the whole argument is cowardly. It isn't propping up Riley, it's merely bashing Jake, a BYU Cougar. It's a low-life move that has nothing to do with our current quarterback competition. Of course, look at the source, a confirmed liar.



Nelson didn't even have a Scout.com page while in high school or at Utah State, before he committed to BYU, which is what makes Sno comparing his accolades to Heaps laughable. Jake was ranked as the #3 best player on the west coast, a US Army All America player, and the MVP of the Elite 11 camp (as well as 7 other camps!). Nelson wasn't even acknowledged as a Div. I recruit, let alone a quarterback. Most people viewed him as a potential safety, due to a lack of height, weight, and speed. Riley had only 1 scholarship offer to play QB out of high school, USU: http://utahstate.scout.com/2/492903.html . Heaps was offered scholarships by over 25 schools!! Including BYU, Cal, Florida State, LSU, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Washington, Alabama, Arizona State, Colorado, Duke, Georgia, Kansas, Miami, Minnesota, Mississippi State, Nebraska, Notre Dame, North Carolina, Oregon State, Pittsburgh, Stanford, South Carolina, UCLA, Boise State, and Washington State, and others more. http://recruiting.scout.com/2/869629.html



And I haven't seen any other concern that hasn't been addressed- Even Heaps appears more "game ready" than Nelson does, due to his professional training and continual quarterback play over the past 3 years, compared to Nelson's two years off and one year as the 3rd best QB on the roster. Meanwhile, I have made many points that I don't believe the pro-Nelson camp has addressed very well at all, such as- Why was Riley so much worse than Jake in getting 1st downs in Spring camp? How will it help BYU win an equal amount of games as they would with Heaps if we start a QB with a weaker arm instead that wastes our strong receiving core and allows opposing defenses to play up more against the run? And- What happens in 2011 if Nelson starts (and won't it hurt the program)?
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SpiffCoug
Thanks Mars. I don't know why Nelson didn't have a Scout page, but I will offer two theories. 1) Scout.com is a lot better now than it was in 2004 (Nelson's SR year). 2) Nelson didn't attend nearly as many camps as Heaps did. He didn't travel all over the country to go to camps and get his name and game out there. Not all of the camps Heaps went to were invites. Perhaps the Nelson clan didn't have the resources to compete as widely as Heaps. That said, I personally don't think Nelson would have competed at the same level as Heaps had they gone to the same camps. I believe that Heaps has more upside than Nelson and Heaps' game is tailor made for those kinds of camps and drills. Heaps has been wildly successful given his competition whereever he has gone. There really is no reason to believe he won't continue that pattern (I just don't see the reason why he needs to be thrust onto the scene now.)



Your point about "game ready" is a very good one. You mention 1st downs. I don't know why Riley wasn't getting as many 1st downs as Jake. I do know that, while 1st downs are great, it's touchdowns the team really needs. We don't have the number of snaps available to us, so we can't compare who was getting into the endzone more frequently based on number of snaps. But we can see that Riley was more productive in the passing game in getting into the endzone (see thier passing efficiency and touchdown percentage I posted in another thread where both numbers favored Riley). I'm going off my memory here, but I think when I went back and counted rushing drives that ended in a TD and I could tell who was QBing Jake led 4 rushing TDs and Riley led 4 rushing TDs. BYU kept awful stats over the spring and it was tough to tell who scored, who led the drive, etc. So overall production Jake led 11 TD drives and Riely 9. And without the total number of snaps we can't be sure who was actually more productive.



You question, "How will it help BYU win an equal amount of games as they would with Heaps if we start a QB with a weaker arm instead that wastes our strong receiving core and allows opposing defenses to play up more against the run?"



Because I don't think either QB is going to be good enough in 2010 to win AT Florida St, AT TCU and AT Utah. I think ANY quarterback who will be on the roster in the fall can/would beat Air Force, Colorado St, San Diego St, UNLV, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah State, and Nevada. I also don't think Nelson would "waste our strong receiving corps." Do you think the coaches would implement the exact same game plan for both QBs? I don't think they'd ask Nelson to be throwing long bombs on every play. Of course, since in spring ball, Nelson had a higher yard per attempt and yard per completion, it could almost be argued that Nelson had the better arm, couldn't it?



"And- What happens in 2011 if Nelson starts (and won't it hurt the program)?" I don't know what would happen in 2011. That's a new year, and hopefully the QB race would be reopened. And no, I don't think it would hurt the program, because I think the program is bigger than one player, one big-time recruit, one position battle.
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Brayden Green
kitic77 wrote:
Thanks Mars. I don't know why Nelson didn't have a Scout page, but I will offer two theories. 1) Scout.com is a lot better now than it was in 2004 (Nelson's SR year). 2) Nelson didn't attend nearly as many camps as Heaps did. He didn't travel all over the country to go to camps and get his name and game out there. Not all of the camps Heaps went to were invites. Perhaps the Nelson clan didn't have the resources to compete as widely as Heaps. That said, I personally don't think Nelson would have competed at the same level as Heaps had they gone to the same camps. I believe that Heaps has more upside than Nelson and Heaps' game is tailor made for those kinds of camps and drills. Heaps has been wildly successful given his competition whereever he has gone. There really is no reason to believe he won't continue that pattern (I just don't see the reason why he needs to be thrust onto the scene now.)



Your point about "game ready" is a very good one. You mention 1st downs. I don't know why Riley wasn't getting as many 1st downs as Jake. I do know that, while 1st downs are great, it's touchdowns the team really needs. We don't have the number of snaps available to us, so we can't compare who was getting into the endzone more frequently based on number of snaps. But we can see that Riley was more productive in the passing game in getting into the endzone (see thier passing efficiency and touchdown percentage I posted in another thread where both numbers favored Riley). I'm going off my memory here, but I think when I went back and counted rushing drives that ended in a TD and I could tell who was QBing Jake led 4 rushing TDs and Riley led 4 rushing TDs. BYU kept awful stats over the spring and it was tough to tell who scored, who led the drive, etc. So overall production Jake led 11 TD drives and Riely 9. And without the total number of snaps we can't be sure who was actually more productive.



You question, "How will it help BYU win an equal amount of games as they would with Heaps if we start a QB with a weaker arm instead that wastes our strong receiving core and allows opposing defenses to play up more against the run?"



Because I don't think either QB is going to be good enough in 2010 to win AT Florida St, AT TCU and AT Utah. I think ANY quarterback who will be on the roster in the fall can/would beat Air Force, Colorado St, San Diego St, UNLV, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah State, and Nevada. I also don't think Nelson would "waste our strong receiving corps." Do you think the coaches would implement the exact same game plan for both QBs? I don't think they'd ask Nelson to be throwing long bombs on every play. Of course, since in spring ball, Nelson had a higher yard per attempt and yard per completion, it could almost be argued that Nelson had the better arm, couldn't it?



"And- What happens in 2011 if Nelson starts (and won't it hurt the program)?" I don't know what would happen in 2011. That's a new year, and hopefully the QB race would be reopened. And no, I don't think it would hurt the program, because I think the program is bigger than one player, one big-time recruit, one position battle.


Again, Kitic show me a direct comparison of numbers or don't show them at all... Show me Jake against the first team, and Riley against the first team. Show me Jake throwing to the same receiver/DB combo VS. Riley against the same. I don't think you can, and that is why your numbers are flawed. You have to consider where the numbers are coming from. Your numbers are you and Sno's crutch, but they are NOT factual. Did Riley even play against the First team D? I know Jake did...
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Brayden Green
Besides, again, the question shows bias. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jake is the ONLY man for the job. Just the BEST one with our offense, as/is. I am all for Riley playing a wildcat position... To me it isn't one or the other, it is where is our offensive focus. Is it in a pure passer who can scramble, or a scrambler/running qb who can also pass. They aren't the same thing, and the offenses are much difference (SEE: BYU vs. AFA).
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SpiffCoug
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Again, Kitic show me a direct comparison of numbers or don't show them at all... Show me Jake against the first team, and Riley against the first team. Show me Jake throwing to the same receiver/DB combo VS. Riley against the same. I don't think you can, and that is why your numbers are flawed. You have to consider where the numbers are coming from. Your numbers are you and Sno's crutch, but they are NOT factual. Did Riley even play against the First team D? I know Jake did...

You're kidding right? That's the argument you're going to make? Then why keep track of numbers during spring ball. If we're not even going to look at what was done in spring ball then why would those matter? And if spring ball numbers don't matter how can possibly use Heaps' high school football numbers. I'm pretty sure there isn't ONE player on BYU's roster to who Heaps was throwing last year. Sorry, you've have better arguments than this one. And yes, Riley did play against the first team defense. I fail to see how 11v11 numbers in any way, shape or form are "NOT factual." Both Riley AND Jake compiled their 11v11 numbers agianst 1st, 2nd and 3rd team defense.



I wish BYU had kept better track of their numbers so that we could look at how each QB did against the respective defenses. I'm sure the coaches did, but all we can go off of are the generic 11v11 numbers.
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