CougarCorner
Sign in
Archived Topic

BYU or Houston?

by Mars · 5/12/2010

Advertisement
M
Mars


Here's my slow-sports-season Question of the Week:



"If the Big XII lost Nebraska and Missouri to the Big Ten, or lost one of those while Colorado went to the PAC-10, they would take TCU and who else, BYU or Houston?"





Do I think the PAC-10 is going to expand? No. Do I think the Big Ten is going to expand? No. Do I think the Big XII, Big east, ACC, or SEC will change conference membership anytime soon? No. Actually, I kind of want to punch every sportwriter that wastes our time with another stupid, conjecture-only, factless article in the face... BUT, IF the Big XII had to take TCU and one other team to get back to 12 schools, who would they be more likely to take as the 12th, the BLUE Cougars or the RED Cougars?



Obviously, BYU has the better... well, just about everything (football, basketball, olympic sports, academics, fanbase, attendence). They also add the Utah market. BUT, they also screw up Sunday sports and championships.



Houston is worse is just about every area than BYU, but not THAT much worse. The basketball team is still solid NIT material most years, the football team has been borderline Top 25 the last few years, and the money, boosters, facilities, etc have undeniably been growing the last half a decade. Plus they are very local for fellow conference members (cheap travel), in the state of Texas (former SWC members, past SEC targets), and Houston is supposedly a huge media market (if you assume the residents care about UH). But perhaps most importantly, they'll agree to play 3 football games on one Sunday if it gives them entrance to the Big XII and not even blink.





So, we know that BYU is the better package, but are we the choice the Big XII big-wigs would make? I have my doubts about that. A lot of them.



What do YOU think?
G
GolfDiveNCougs
I don't know, just because there are likely many other factors involved than those you just named. My biggest reason for thinking the Big 12 would look at BYU over Houston is that Houston doesn't give them anything they don't already have. Houston is, by my count, the 6th biggest college fan draw in the State (7th if you include Oklahoma, which I was AMAZED to find out how many Texans do...), and only the 5th biggest sports draw in their city ALONE, behind all of the pro sports, and that's not even MENTIONING high school football in that warped state! It's a pro-town city (interestingly, not unlike Dallas...one reason, in my opinion, SMU and TCU have never really gone anywhere).



There's simply not enough attention, air-waves, or programming-time-slots to go 'round when there's that much to compete with. BYU has none of those problems. Lemmee tell you what it has to compete with. THE JAZZ. Wow. Now, I grant you, the greater Utah market doesn't hold a candle even to the Houston market alone for sheer number of TV sets, but I don't see how ANYONE can think that the greater Utah market DOESN'T blow the Houston market out of the water for actual TV sets TUNED IN TO THEIR RESPECTIVE TEAM. Big difference.

You tack on an extra half million or so Mormon TVs sprinkled across the nation tuning in (maybe more, I actually have no idea), that's a worthwhile market investment.



Secondly, the good thing about Mormons is that you can find 'em anywhere. Kinda like cockroaches. ;)

No, we wouldn't put 20K in Stillwater like we do in Pasadena, but it's a good bet we could put more in the seats of our opponent's stadium than any conference team besides Texas, Oklahoma and maybe an in-state rival. It has been mentioned every year that BYU has played at TCU that there's just as much Blue as Purple in those stands. I can personally attest, having witnessed it year before last (among other things. Sigh). Those numbers add up, and ADs know it.



I say they know they'd be cutting the pie smaller based on what Houston brings to the table than what BYU brings. I can't say BYU brings excess VALUE, per-se, but I doubt bringing BYU into the fold dilutes their profits (especially if it replaces a Colorado spot that wasn't really doing much for the conference the last few years in the first place - see above Houston/DFW sports market argument with respect to Denver). I bet Houston is simply another mouth to feed, taking food from other mouths. Whether the DIFFERENCE in earnings is worth the cost of upsetting a few olympic sports' championship schedules is anybody's guess, but I doubt it, seeing as those sports don't earn a dime anyway.
C
cscoug
I think what you are getting at is really the crux of the argument--BYU brings more across the board than any non-AQ school, but the Sunday play policy may be too much to overcome. Just look at what happened to the woman's rugby team.
M
Mars
GolfDiveNCougs wrote:
My biggest reason for thinking the Big 12 would look at BYU over Houston is that Houston doesn't give them anything they don't already have. Houston is, by my count, the 6th biggest college fan draw in the State (7th if you include Oklahoma, which I was AMAZED to find out how many Texans do...), and only the 5th biggest sports draw in their city ALONE, behind all of the pro sports, and that's not even MENTIONING high school football in that warped state! It's a pro-town city (interestingly, not unlike Dallas...one reason, in my opinion, SMU and TCU have never really gone anywhere). There's simply not enough attention, air-waves, or programming-time-slots to go 'round when there's that much to compete with.

Houston is a small-fish in Texas, true, but so is TCU, and the Horned Frogs are universally considered the first team the Big XII would add if they lost a conference member.



And Houston, for all its issues gaining and keeping dedicated fans/viewers, is located in a city with a larger population than the entire state of Utah, to put things in perspective. Yes, more people live in Houston, the city, than in the entire state that BYU resides in.



Houston adds nothing new to the Big XII, but they don't take away anything old either, like BYU would with Sunday play. There are no scheduling complications or angry coaches and ADs when it comes to Houston and the post-season.
Y
Y 4 Ever
Houston, unfortunately. Geographical fit, old SWC "rivalries", and no Sunday Play issues.



The only way I see BYU in the Big 12 is if they either lose 4+ teams, or they decide to expand to 16 teams.



And I don't see ANY way BYU's ever part of the Pac 0 - even if they expand to 16 teams.They'd take Boise, Nevada, UNLV, SDSU, Fresno, or even New Mexico before BYU. Never underestimate the power of religious discrimination.
Advertisement
Q
Qman
I have been a resident of Houston for about 2 1/2 years.



I was stunned to realize that there are 3 full-time sports stations and a number of part time radio stations. There are also three large universities Rice, Texas Southern and Houston in the city. Sam Houston St. is only 30 minutes away. But here is the order of sports interest in amount of radio airtime-



1. Big 12 College Football-Texas or OU or Texas A&M

2. Texans

3. Rockets

4. Astros

5. LSU Tigers football- you get all the radio shows here

6. Dynamo

7. Dallas Cowboys

8. High school Football

9. U of Houston Football

etc



Now if they were playing Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, etc. weekly I am sure interest would peak.



But all that said the only reason to not take BYU would be because of the 'No Sunday' Rule
C
craigoscarson
33311710 wrote:
Houston, unfortunately. Geographical fit, old SWC "rivalries", and no Sunday Play issues.



The only way I see BYU in the Big 12 is if they either lose 4+ teams, or they decide to expand to 16 teams.



And I don't see ANY way BYU's ever part of the Pac 0 - even if they expand to 16 teams.They'd take Boise, Nevada, UNLV, SDSU, Fresno, or even New Mexico before BYU. Never underestimate the power of religious discrimination.


Keep in mind that the Big 12 could potentially be losing 3 schools and could decide to add even more than 3 to replace them.



The Big 12 has already moved their hoops championship to saturday.. and their football championship is played on saturday... (and that's assuming we'd actually make the championship game)



so you'd be asking the non revenue sports to move back a day? yawnnnn............ it doesn't effect the $$$



the sunday rule is a non issue in the Big 12... the issue will be travel money..... but they might not see it much different than having Colorado (especially if Colorado leaves) and if they build the Pac10/Big 12 TV network, then BYU offers a great deal more than Houston (an area that will have it with or without them)



Houston has TERRRRRIBLE facilities......and A TERRIBLE following. Inviting them to the Big 12 hurts recruiting of the schools that already count on that state and area for their recruits. You think Texas and Oklahoma want to give up the Houston area just to add a regional opponent? NOPE, won't happen.
M
Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
The Big 12 has already moved their hoops championship to saturday.. and their football championship is played on saturday... (and that's assuming we'd actually make the championship game) so you'd be asking the non revenue sports to move back a day? yawnnnn............ it doesn't effect the $$$ the sunday rule is a non issue in the Big 12...

"The Big 12 scheduled ten championships on or including Sunday, in the following sports: Women's Soccer, Women's Basketball, Men's and Women's Golf, Men's and Women's Tennis, Softball, Men's and Women's Outdoor Track and Field, Baseball." http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=10621742



So obviously their 12 ADs prefer to play these 10 championships on Sunday. If they had to change from their preferences to add BYU, would they do so, or would they angrily say "Screw them, let's take a team like Colorado State or UTEP instead!"?
F
Florwood
GolfDiveNCougs wrote:

Secondly, the good thing about Mormons is that you can find 'em anywhere. Kinda like cockroaches. ;)


OK, off topic, but I've gotta add this story. Karl Brewer, in his missionary-in-Samoa book "Armed with the Spirit", writes how "Mormon" was pronounced 'mamonga' [long o] in Samoan. When he would visit villages on Savai'i, the kids would all swarm around him, shouting out, 'monga monga'. Which means cockroach...
C
craigoscarson
Mars wrote:
The Big 12 has already moved their hoops championship to saturday.. and their football championship is played on saturday... (and that's assuming we'd actually make the championship game) so you'd be asking the non revenue sports to move back a day? yawnnnn............ it doesn't effect the $$$ the sunday rule is a non issue in the Big 12...

"The Big 12 scheduled ten championships on or including Sunday, in the following sports: Women's Soccer, Women's Basketball, Men's and Women's Golf, Men's and Women's Tennis, Softball, Men's and Women's Outdoor Track and Field, Baseball." http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=10621742



So obviously their 12 ADs prefer to play these 10 championships on Sunday. If they had to change from their preferences to add BYU, would they do so, or would they angrily say "Screw them, let's take a team like Colorado State or UTEP instead!"?


We're talking about a massive move that will completely change the face of college sports and you think the sunday rule will nix us?



The Pac 10, and Big 10 have had economists do independent studies... all driven by what makes them the most money.... what markets do they benefit the most by being in...etc. etc. etc.



If money is driving the boat.... then the meaningless (non revenue) sports get moved a day early. It's really not that complicated. It doesn't effect the money...



Do we believe that anything but money is driving the boat?



BYU is a money maker with a worldwide following, tremendous facilities, and a high academic reputation. Houston is the Boise State of Texas,,, poor facilities, small arenas and an even smaller following.



Don't let a few years of success in one sport blind you from what the conferences are looking at.



BYU is the complete package, Boise State and Houston are nice programs run on shoestring budgets with small followings.



The Big 12 will not only overlook the sunday rule but they'll embrace having a program like BYU with their great undergrad academics, clean program (the cleanest in NCAA D1 history) , and excellent student athletes.

Trust me, if they lose Colorado, Nebraska, and Mizzouri, BYU will be at the top of the list if they're willing to consider it.



BYU has about as strong a foundation as any university they could chose from. Financially strong, academically and clean as a whistle. Let's not assume that just because the Pac 10 thinks like a backwards bunch of liberal idiots, that the Big 12 would do the same.



The same local Kansas City (810 whb) radio station that broke the premature (and earth shattering news) of the Big 10 "invites" is also the group that has BYU smack dab at the top of the list for Big 12 expansion. Houston has not been discussed....
Advertisement
C
craigoscarson
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/383747-should-the-big-12-conference-expand-and-add-utah-and-byu-now





http://galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=410874c58b2572d4



University of Houston fans need to stop living in a dreamland.



The Cougars are not on any hot list to join a big-time conference. It would be a shock to see them land in the Big 12 or any other major college league.



This is not an indictment on the athletics teams. The Cougars, on the field, perform admirably. They could compete in the Big 12, especially in football.



But college football has very little to do with what happens on the field. Sorry to shed the spotlight on reality.



It’s all about the money. And Houston has very little of it compared to most.



The Cougars can’t fill their 45,000-seat stadium that is outdated. They can’t lure a big-name basketball coach — or depending on your interpretation, afford to hire him. They don’t have the athletic facilities to attract recruits. They have a dilapidated basketball stadium — if one can call it that — which seats 5,000.



The idea that the Big 12 or Southeastern Conference might pick up the Cougars because of the Houston market is flawed. The Cougars would not bring the Houston market — they can’t even get rear ends in the seats — which is controlled by Texas and Texas A&M and three professional teams.
C
craigoscarson
2009 NCAA DIVISION I FBS ATTENDANCE TEAM LEADERS

Rank School G Attendance Average

1. Michigan 8 871,464 108,933

2. Penn St. 8 856,066 107,008

3. Ohio St. 7 736,830 105,261

4. Texas 6 607,049 101,175

5. Tennessee 8 793,760 99,220

6. Georgia 6 556,476 92,746

7. LSU 7 647,420 92,489

8. Alabama 7 644,084 92,012

9. Florida 7 634,446 90,635

10. Nebraska 7 601,216 85,888

11. Southern California 6 508,796 84,799

12. Oklahoma 6 508,670 84,778

13. Auburn 8 676,911 84,614

14. Notre Dame 7 565,565 80,795

15. Wisconsin 7 560,764 80,109

Rank School G Attendance Average

16. Texas A&M 7 537,602 76,800

17. Clemson 7 530,553 75,793

18. South Carolina 7 527,580 75,369

19. Michigan St. 7 523,186 74,741

20. Florida St. 6 446,067 74,345

21. Iowa 7 491,499 70,214

22. Kentucky 7 487,156 69,594

23. Virginia Tech 6 397,398 66,233

24. Arkansas 7 455,783 65,112

25. UCLA 6 387,283 64,547

26. Washington 7 450,491 64,356

27. BYU 6 385,416 64,236

28. Missouri 6 384,719 64,120

29. Illinois 6 357,267 59,545

30. California 6 356,830 59,472





I'd imagine it's lists like these that make the Big 12 raise an eyebrow or 2.
L
Lawboy
BYU could always expand that stadium, and if they get a BCS bid and see some top notch teams comes in week after week, they will have to. We all saw what happened when FSU came in, when USC and ND came in. Ticket demand went way up. BYU can expand and I suspect will in 5-7 years IF they get in a better conference.



By the way, the no Sunday play rules does not effect CFB at all, and really only changes 1 major event--the conference hoop final. that is easy to change. Add to it that teams coming to play BYU would play Saturday instead of Sunday, it adds another game to show on TV on another day, helping the conference overall with getting more games televised, especially if they add a network. I think the Sunday play rule is a smokescreen used by the PAC10 to hide some anti-LDS views. It really is not a huge deal at all.
C
craigoscarson
Lawboy wrote:
BYU could always expand that stadium, and if they get a BCS bid and see some top notch teams comes in week after week, they will have to. We all saw what happened when FSU came in, when USC and ND came in. Ticket demand went way up. BYU can expand and I suspect will in 5-7 years IF they get in a better conference.



By the way, the no Sunday play rules does not effect CFB at all, and really only changes 1 major event--the conference hoop final. that is easy to change. Add to it that teams coming to play BYU would play Saturday instead of Sunday, it adds another game to show on TV on another day, helping the conference overall with getting more games televised, especially if they add a network. I think the Sunday play rule is a smokescreen used by the PAC10 to hide some anti-LDS views. It really is not a huge deal at all.




Expanding the stadium or not, BYU is in the top 30 annually of attendance and fairs very well on the road. (That list was meant to be impressive.) BYU stands to gain even more in the future and the Big 12 could not add a better overall program if they wanted to.



There is very little risk in adding the Cougs to the Big 12 and as my Cornell educated attorney-brother says, "follow the money and when you finally make a decision, make sure there is minimal risk first."



BYU is about as risk free as it gets for the Big 12 when it comes to the money.



Like Lawboy stated, the pac 10 are anti-LDS liberals with an agenda; the Big 12 have their own agenda but it doesn't preclude BYU because it's all about the $$.
M
Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
We're talking about a massive move that will completely change the face of college sports and you think the sunday rule will nix us? The Pac 10, and Big 10 have had economists do independent studies... all driven by what makes them the most money.... what markets do they benefit the most by being in...etc. etc. etc. If money is driving the boat.... then the meaningless (non revenue) sports get moved a day early. It's really not that complicated. It doesn't effect the money... Do we believe that anything but money is driving the boat?



...BYU [is] smack dab at the top of the list for Big 12 expansion. Houston has not been discussed....

The way you make it sound, BYU is #1 on both the PAC-10 and the Big XII's lists. But they're not, not in reality, where blue-goggles aren't worn by the masses. The PAC-10's top two targets are Colorado and Utah. The Big XII's top target is TCU. So yes, the Sunday rule could very well nix us, and no, it's not all about money, clearly.



Dennis Dodds from CBS writes: " If Missouri or Colorado leave, the Big 12 would most likely grab TCU from the Mountain West. The MWC's standing in the BCS would be severely damaged because it would have to grab Boise State, Fresno State or UTEP to replace TCU. Maybe the MWC expands by four to go to 12, picking off teams from the WAC. If the Pac-10 invites Colorado and Utah, then the Big 12 and MWC are affected. If the Big 12 loses Missouri and Colorado it would invite TCU and ... who? BYU? Colorado State? " http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/12936343/in-the-trenches-expanding-on-expansion-signing-surprises-title-guesses



Darin Darst: " If the Big Ten takes teams from the Big 12, I am pretty confident the Big 12 can survive. Just pull TCU from the Mountain West and Houston from C-USA and they will be fine. "



Dodd: " BYU is out: At least in the Pac-10 expansion discussion. That's my conclusion after researching the academic underpinnings of the Pac-10. While the league isn't as exclusive as the Big Ten academically (all Association of American Universities), it's darn close. Seven of the 10 Pac-10 schools are both AAU and are rated "very highly" by the Carnegie Commission on Higher Education. Those are designations given to respected research institutions. The other three schools have only the Carnegie designation. Colorado has both designations. Utah is Carnegie only. BYU is neither. One Pac-10 source was asked if BYU's situation would be a detriment to it joining the Pac-10. The reply: "That would be a keen observation to make." " http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13281024



Dodd: " The Pac-10 is looking to maximize its earning power and could add two members. The two most mentioned candidates are Colorado and Utah. " http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13210392/if-conference-expansions-come-true-college-athletics-will-never-be-the-same



Dodd: " Big 12: The biggest hit comes if both Colorado (Pac-10) and Missouri (Big Ten) leave. If Missouri or Colorado leave, the Big 12 would go get TCU from the Mountain West. While that would wound the MWC, the league would most likely then invite Boise State. If both Colorado and Missouri left, the Big 12 would get TCU and, maybe, Houston? Either way, the Big 12’s TV stature would shrink. " http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/20018270





I've seen Houston mentioned a lot as the second-best expansion plan for the Big XII, behind TCU. I've also heard people mention that SMU, UTEP, or Colorado State could be plugged in fairly easily as well. Again, all of which would be just fine with playing on Sunday. It's a major concern. Past BYU ADs have been all over the Utah news saying the same thing.
Advertisement
C
craigoscarson
Careful about the words you put in my mouth. What I said what that IF money drives the Big 12, that we're the top choice.



In the Pac 10, we're painfully aware that their anti LDS and liberal bias, not to mention grad school snobbery, in addition to the sunday rule makes it difficult. I never once said that the Pac 10 will consider us.



In the Big 12, they already have moved their major revenue championship games to saturday, will be losing cash cows like Nebraska and Missouri and cannot replace that $$ by simply inviting TCU or even worse, Houston. They can with us, which will be a major driving factor once they lose Missouri (which will happen sooner rather than later) and Nebraska. Is it possible they dont' invite us? sure.... but my point, is if money drives the bus, BYU is an obvious choice.
M
Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
I said what that IF money drives the Big 12, that we're the top choice... I never once said that the Pac 10 will consider us. In the Big 12... Is it possible they dont' invite us? sure... but my point, is if money drives the bus, BYU is an obvious choice.

That's the whole crux of this thread! Would the Big XII go with BYU and the money, or take a more "comfortable fit", such as Houston, like the PAC-10 is willing to do with Utah? I see no proof that they wouldn't settle for the latter, simply because regardless of financial considerations, that vote is easier to pass.
W
Wickchad
Mars wrote:
I said what that IF money drives the Big 12, that we're the top choice... I never once said that the Pac 10 will consider us. In the Big 12... Is it possible they dont' invite us? sure... but my point, is if money drives the bus, BYU is an obvious choice.

That's the whole crux of this thread! Would the Big XII go with BYU and the money, or take a more "comfortable fit", such as Houston, like the PAC-10 is willing to do with Utah? I see no proof that they wouldn't settle for the latter, simply because regardless of financial considerations, that vote is easier to pass.


Are the Big 12 rules for expansion the same as the PAC 10 where 100% of the school presidents have to approve expansion? Or do they just need a majority?



If it is just a majority vote then I see it as being very easy for BYU to be voted in versus Houston. You have two factors: 1 - BYU brings more money than Houston and fills the stadiums. 2 - You more than likely have five automatic votes from the Texas schools and from Oklahoma for BYU who won't want Houston competing for their recruits in Texas. BYU would just need a couple more votes for a majority.
S
Samurai Jack
I've posted on this topic far more extensively on prior posts. I've researched this topic far more than I should have, and I find it interesting that TCU frequently gets the "top of the list" nod for a replacement of a lost Big 12 team.



TCU is not a wise choice for the Big 12, unless they lose a large share of their Texas TV market. TCU is mega small, has poor attendance, adds no new geography to the conference in any sense. Conference expansion is about $$$$. Period. If the Big 12 keeps Texas and Tex A&M and in any scenario adds TCU, they have mega rocks for brains.



Houston, by the same criteria is not even close to a wise choice for the Big 12.



Following the line of reasoning followed by the Big 10 expansion evaluation process, and the current state of money in college football, the REAL choices for the Big 12 if they lose teams are:



1. Not to add replacement teams. If the conference loses one or two teams and enters into a joint TV deal with the PAC-10, this may work just fine.

2. Add a team or teams that add to television revenue to an appreciable extent AND will actually join the conference (i.e. Arkansas is not leaving the SEC). The teams that make the most sense are, in no particular order: BYU, Utah, Louisville. Probably not both BYU and Utah. Assumptions usually having Utah going to the PAC-10, but the odds that the PAC-10 expands at all are not very overwhelming, especially when the vote to expand has to be unanimous. When considering Stanford and Cal, it would be remarkable to see any expansion take place.
W
WACoug
BYU will be invited before TCU. TCU brings the BIG XII nothing. Texas and Oklahoma are against bringing in TCU. Dallas/Ft. Worth are very fertile recruiting grounds that they don't want to share. The BIG XII commissioner was recently on the radio saying that the BIG XII would not add any more Texas teams, that they would try to expand to new areas without a current BIG XII presence. I believe the ONLY way TCU goes to the BIG XII is if the BIG XII is completely gutted and rebuilt with OU and Texas going elsewhere. Otherwise they (OU and Texas) don't want TCU, and if the flagship programs don't want them they aren't getting in.



TCU going to the BIG XII ahead of BYU is a joke. Just because Dodd says it over and over again doesn't make it true.
Page 1 of 2
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.