Why I Detest The Honor Code

This post is likely going to upset some of the "holier than though" types on this board. But...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it.



I HATE the honor code. Always have. Always will. I believe that, in its current incarnation and enforcement, the honor code is a hypocritical scourge on BYU athletics and on the University as a whole, and that it does much more harm than good - both to the current student body, and to the image of the University and the Church.



The "Honor Code" was created (in its current incarnation) by a faceless horde of acne-infested pencil-necked geeks who couldn't get a date on a Friday Night to save their lives (let alone find someone on campus willing to...uh...help them VIOLATE the honor code). These people were miserable, wretched human beings, and wanted the REST of us loyal BYU fans and/or alumni/students, to be miserable as well. And thus, the current Honor Code was born.



The tyranny that is today's "Honor Code Committee" continues this tradition of pencil-necked-geeks who wish they could get kicked out of school for gross honor code violations...but try as they might, they can't. And so they perpetuate the scourge that is the Honor Code - reigning with iron-fisted horror over students and (especially) athletes, doling out grossly exaggerated punishments to "offenders" who broke no laws and caused no physical or emotional harm to anyone but themselves.



Think the honor code isn't hypocritical? Consider this: What do the Holy Scriptures teach? Do they teach that sinners should be cast out? Do they suggest that infractions should result in the most severe punishment possible under the power wielded by "judges"?



The last I checked, my Church is one of love, respect, tolerance, forgiveness, and in actually reaching out to those who are in need of help - NOT forcing them out. NOT turning our backs on them.



When someone is straying, its time to put your arm around their shoulders, and guide them back into the fold! If I remember the story correctly, when Christ went after the sheep that had strayed, it wasn't so he could chase it away with a stick!



Any sins by BYU students (athletes included) that do NOT involve the breaking of laws should be handled by that person's bishop or Ecclesiastical leader ONLY - there should be ZERO INVOLVEMENT from a group of cretins and imbeciles using the "power" they've procured through their membership on the "Honor Code Committee" to push their own domineering agendas (which were forged in the fires of many long and hard years being shoved in lockers and having their cousins turn down their Senior Prom invitations).



AND...since when should the Honor Code have ANYTHING to do with playing football? Don't give me this crap that playing Football at BYU is a "privilege", and is a righteous justification for the Honor Code.



Guess what - playing football at Notre Dame is also a "privilege" - as is playing for USC, or Florida, or Michigan, or Ohio State, or even Utah Bloody State!



And also don't try to pretend that the "punishments are just" and fit the "crimes". Please - since when is getting booted from school and off of the Team just punishment for getting lucky in the back seat of your Tahoe, or drinking a beer or two?



I'm fed up with watching BYU athletes kicked out of school (or leaving voluntarily to avoid being kicked out), having their promising athletic careers derailed, facing public ridicule and humiliation, for personal transgressions that should be resolved between them, their Bishop or other church leader, and THE LORD.



Frankly, its none of yours, mine, the Media's, coach Mendenhall's, the University President's, and especially the "Honor Code Committee's" damn business what went on between Harvey and his girlfriend!



Out there in the "real world", there is this widely believed notion that Mormons are "holier than though", intolerant, and shun the "gentiles". This idea is perpetuated by the Honor Code, and by the Committee who gleefully dole out punishments that rarely fit the crime.



Every time a story like Unga's hits the news, there's this sense across the Sports Nation of "Well, there go the Mormons again - intolerant as ever. Glad I'm not one!" If you don't believe it, maybe you should step outside of Provo and look around.



And that perception will embed this idea of religious and social intolerance firmly in the minds of the non-members - the very group who (it is claimed) the athletics programs are supposed to be exposing the Church to in a positive light.



With or without the honor code, BYU will always be a "peculiar place" where the majority of students are a "peculiar people". Parents (even non-LDS) will still want their kids to attend, because it will always be a safe place, a clean place (relatively speaking), and a happy place - a place where I hope my kids will attend when they grow up.



We don't NEED the honor code to make the above statements true. We don't need a stern mistress standing their with a wooden paddle in hand, ready to smite the rear ends of the offenders in order to keep BYU students in line. We don't NEED the honor code to keep the overwhelming majority of the 30,000+ ADULTS who are attending BYU on the "straight and narrow".



We don't NEED the honor code to keep the image of BYU as a "different" place alive. We don't NEED the honor code for the athletics programs to continue to be excellent ambassadors for the Church.



And we sure as "HELL IS HOT AND IS LOCATED ON CAPITAL HILL IN SLC" don't need the Honor Code for myself and 65,000 of my closest friends to enjoy about 6 little get-togethers every fall.



I'm a realist - I know the Honor Code isn't going anywhere. And it's not likely to change, either. But that doesn't mean I can't stand against it. And it definitely doesn't mean that I HAVE to like it!



Last I checked, there's no question in the Temple Recommend Interview that says: "Do you fully support the BYU honor code, and all that it represents, and submit yourself to the will of the Honor Code Committee?".



And for those of you who I just pissed off - who will BLINDLY support ANYTHING that comes out of BYU Headquarters regardless of rationale or reason...Riddle Me This:



When a BYU student "transgresses" and violates the honor code, why is it easier and faster to get their temple recommend back than it is to get back into school and back on the football team?

Whoa... calm down there. Athletics would go long before the honor code would.

i think I"ll come back when he stops foaming at the mouth...

Standing ovation!!!!!!!



I think BYU can be a special and different place without the Honor Code. It is the teachings of the LDS Church that makes BYU a special place, and the fact most students at BYU subscribe to those teachings that makes it great. Just as it is the way that members of this church lives their lives on a day-to-day basis--free of any Honor Code--that says what the gospel is really about. I get agency and consequences, but I also get that is what your bishop is for. The Honor Code is not what BYU is about, nor should it be. BYU is about individuals making choices and using their agency properly, then dealing with their ecclesiastical leader when they do not.

I wonder how many of us will someday stand before God and say, "...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it..." :bug:



I kid, I kid. - I am not equating HC with God, etc.

kiwibacon wrote:
I wonder how many of us will someday stand before God and say, "...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it..." :bug:



I kid, I kid.

So.....if i read that correctly - you're suggesting that the Honor Code is Religious Doctrine that is the result of Divine revelation?



(j/k - I know you were kidding)

33311710 wrote:

I wonder how many of us will someday stand before God and say, "...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it..." :bug:



I kid, I kid.

So.....if i read that correctly - you're suggesting that the Honor Code is Religious Doctrine that is the result of Divine revelation?



(j/k - I know you were kidding)

...I am suggesting that and that God sent Angel Moroni to help Collie out on 4th and 18. ;)

I have yet to see anyone who is against the honor code make a valid or sane argument against it.



Yes, I've seen all of the straw-man arguments and preemptive attacks against people who will disagree with them, as well as a blatant and terrible misunderstanding of the scriptures and the history of the Church in some cases.



BYU makes many, many mistakes. It is run by imperfect people, making imperfect decisions. I've ranted and railed against many of the policies they've created and rules they've enforced. The Honor Code however is not one of them, I fully support it and understand that it's an important part of what makes BYU BYU.



The Honor Code is not a list of rules by which people are looking to catch others breaking so they can kick them out. It's an ensign to the world saying, look, we're different, we are going to put together something here that not only works, but excels, and we're going to do it in a way that the rest of the world thinks is impossible. Including mandating things like dress and appearance we'll also tell our students they can't drink, smoke, do drugs or have sex, and they will be chomping at the bit to come here. In short it's our declaration that we are a peculiar people.



Some people will hate BYU for it (see the liberal elite/PAC10, some people will admire and respect them (read the CBS article), but in the end BYU will push on and succeed for it.



I've also moved this to the Lounge, because it's not about football.

kiwibacon wrote:

kiwibacon wrote:
I wonder how many of us will someday stand before God and say, "...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it..." :bug:



I kid, I kid.

So.....if i read that correctly - you're suggesting that the Honor Code is Religious Doctrine that is the result of Divine revelation?



(j/k - I know you were kidding)

...I am suggesting that and that God sent Angel Moroni to help Collie out on 4th and 18. ;)

I don't know why it is difficult to believe, that in a school where the onsite administrator is a General Authority, and the presiding board are Apostles, that something as important and encompassing as the Honor Code is not at least in some way inspired.



Why wouldn't it be?

While we're on the subject, what's the deal with prisons? When someone breaks the law, does it really help to put them in a place with other criminals? We need to keep all of them out in society so we can show them how to behave. And what's with Jesus casting the money changers out of the temple? Isn't the influence of the temple what those people needed most at the time?!



And another thing, what's with not being able to have a beard if you're in the Army? I can have a beard and go to the temple, but not have a beard and defend my country?!?! Why does the Army think they're more important than the temple?!?! What makes them thinks they can have rules that aren't found in the scriptures?!?

33..., i didn't want to like what you said, but you make strong points. There is, however, an element you ignore.



Church courts are held and discipline meted to transgressors for two reasons. The first and most important is to offer, in love, a way for the sinner to get back on track and right with the Lord.



The second reason is to protect the integrity of the church. A Bishop's trangression is treated much more seriously than a random member of the church because they represent the church to members and the community. Letting a bishop 'get away' with a major trangression would damage people's view of the church and limit its effectiveness in preaching the gospel.



BYU is a separate institution from the church, but also represents it. If it is seen as letting prominent transgressors 'get away' with things, it damages the effectiveness of the school and the church, even if the church is separately handling things. So something has to be done on a school basis to supplement the more important church action. But I agree the atmosphere around it could be cleaned up. Spying and reporting as a virtue don't need to be a part of the system, for example.



And don't think I am looking down on 'sinners' and 'transgressors'. I'm one as much as the next person.

hawkwing wrote:

33311710 wrote:

I wonder how many of us will someday stand before God and say, "...I don't care. This is how I feel, so deal with it..." :bug:



I kid, I kid.

So.....if i read that correctly - you're suggesting that the Honor Code is Religious Doctrine that is the result of Divine revelation?



(j/k - I know you were kidding)

...I am suggesting that and that God sent Angel Moroni to help Collie out on 4th and 18. ;)

I don't know why it is difficult to believe, that in a school where the onsite administrator is a General Authority, and the presiding board are Apostles, that something as important and encompassing as the Honor Code is not at least in some way inspired.



Why wouldn't it be?

I may have come off wrong. I was just giving "numbers" a good hearted ribbing because I like him. I think I am more upon the same thought process as you hawkwing, I more so have just grown weary of these "fun" discussions. I feel a lot of temporal standards, rules, etc are inspired...there are also so many that are not inspired sometimes it muddies the water. I tend to look at who(person, group, institution) created the standard. "By their fruits..."

33311710 wrote:



The "Honor Code" was created (in its current incarnation) by a faceless horde of acne-infested pencil-necked geeks who couldn't get a date on a Friday Night to save their lives (let alone find someone on campus willing to...uh...help them VIOLATE the honor code). These people were miserable, wretched human beings, and wanted the REST of us loyal BYU fans and/or alumni/students, to be miserable as well. And thus, the current Honor Code was born.

Wow!!! I hope that this was TIC - because... if not... WOW! Superiority complex much?

33311710 wrote:



The last I checked, my Church is one of love, respect, tolerance, forgiveness, and in actually reaching out to those who are in need of help - NOT forcing them out. NOT turning our backs on them.

I don't go to your church, I go to Jesus' church. And I don't presume to tell him how to run things.... Of course, if you're so high on yourself to consider people with acne to be sub-human, then I can see where you could also presume to tell the "Creator of all" how to run things... :skeptic:

#1 argument against the Honor Code is the same it has always been. It is not the Code itself per se, nor is it the way the code is enforced when it is violated. It is that the "Honor" aspect of the code is not always the driving force. Not when you have students telling on each other, spies to enforce it, etc. What is the "honor" in that? And let's not act like that does not happen, because it absolutely does. If that component got removed, it be more like the rest of the world that LDS members live in. But with that component at BYU, it creates a mini-Gestapo influence that is simply not needed. Imagine that for all members of the Church in all places. What silliness that would create. Secret "spies" are ridiculous. Imagine the Savior using those. That does not jive.

Lawboy wrote:
#1 argument against the Honor Code is the same it has always been. It is not the Code itself per se, nor is it the way the code is enforced when it is violated. It is that the "Honor" aspect of the code is not always the driving force. Not when you have students telling on each other, spies to enforce it, etc. What is the "honor" in that? And let's not act like that does not happen, because it absolutely does. If that component got removed, it be more like the rest of the world that LDS members live in. But with that component at BYU, it creates a mini-Gestapo influence that is simply not needed. Imagine that for all members of the Church in all places. What silliness that would create. Secret "spies" are ridiculous. Imagine the Savior using those. That does not jive.

Y'know I guess such exist, because people say that they do, but in my time at both Ricks College and at BYU, I never (and I mean "NEVER!!!!") ran into one, nor did I know anyone who ran into one. Sure there are anecdote out there of them happening, but really I'm willing to put most of the gestapo stories in the same catagory as those of Alice Cooper's dad being a stake president.

That just means that you ran in circles that did not require one. Unless you have some counter culture stories you'd like to share with us, which I doubt :)

Lawboy wrote:
That just means that you ran in circles that did not require one. Unless you have some counter culture stories you'd like to share with us, which I doubt :)

I might have voted for a democrat ( :bug: ) while at college, how about that for "conter culture?" ;)

Hey, with the way that Utah Republicans are running things in our state, how they dragged their feet on ethics reform for themselves, and with some of the stupid comments made by leadership lately, I would consider it in a state election, but not national election.



As the wise Lord Acton stated "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Draw your own conclusions on that. Balance, opposition in all things, etc.

If you are against the Honor Code, you really should find another school to attend/cheer. Without the Honor Code, what is BYU besides just another private university? Baylor has an Honor Code they never enforce....is that our aim?



As for the 'what does the Honor Code have to do with football' strawman--nothing. That's why they get kicked out of school, not off the team. There should not be double standards for football players. The Code applies with equal force to them as anyone else. The publicity of their infractions has to do with their decision to play football and become a limited-purpose public figure in representing the university, not with their Honor Code decisions. Publicity cuts both ways.

333 isn't that half of 666? Just wondering. I guess I will start calling you Jr. ;)



First off, chill out dude. It sounds like you have some personal issues with this Honor code thing.



I for one applaud the honor code, it spells out most of the things I have been trying to teach my own boys in how they should conduct their lives, so if it is supported by the school I want them to attend then hallelujah!



The honor code isn't about the privalage of playing football, or basketball or hating anything :utard:, it's the privalage of attending BYU to get an EDUCATION, and what's wrong with having the students promise to try to live the covenants they made with their Heavenly Father through their baptism, endowments, marriages etc.? If non members want to attend that's great, but they will have to live by the same rules and codes the memebers have agreed to live as well.



As far as you saying Unga broke no laws, you are correct that he broke no earthly laws, so I guess those are more important to you than the eternal laws of our Heavely Father? If you have a problem with those laws than you have a bigger problem than just hating the honor code. Also saying the honor code told the world about Unga is incorrect. Unga left the team, he is a public figure and a huge one at that, so the news diffently was going to pick up and report on that. The honor code office doesn't make it a point to release the names of those who are getting kicked out of BYU, how many regular every day students have you read about getting kicked out?



You are correct there is not a temple recommend question and isn't in the scriptures about supporting the honor code, but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard as an argument against the honor code. if memory serves me I seem to recall a few temple recommed questions that you couldn't find in the scriptures either but that certainly doesn't make them less valid.



Jr. take a deep breath, go get your prescription refilled and lay down for the rest of the night.