"The Kids Know What They Agreed To"

"If you go to BYU you'd better be ready to live the honor code."

"The kids know what they signed to and if they make their bed they need to lay in it."

"If you don't think you can live the honor code, go somewhere else!"

"If you're going to knowingly break the rules, don't be surprised when BYU shows you the door."



I keep seeing phrases like this on cougar forums.



Of course 99% of the students at BYU know what they are agreeing to when they sign the honor code.

What does this have to do with anything?

People who have the mentality displayed in the above quotes seem to hold the ideology that knowing what is right = always doing right.

Is this really the case?



"If so-and-so can't live the honor code, he/she shouldn't have signed it."

So let me get this straight: the people who say things like this were able to see 4 years into the future when they came to BYU, and knew for a fact that they would never sin? Even with peer pressure? Or in the "Heat of the moment" when the opportunity to sin presented itself? For someone to suggest such a thing takes pride and self-righteousness to whole new levels.

I fear that BYU - and many members of our faith - are beginning more and more to lose all signs of human compassion. Have any of you read the honor code? I can guarantee you there is not one student who has lived it perfect. Should they all be booted off campus? No? Why not? They knew what they were signing to and didn't follow it!



Where does this sound familiar?



Oh yes, the creation, and each of our choices to come to earth.

Well, thank God that God Himself is not as cold-blooded as some of those who run the system. I'd hate to arrive at the judgment and hear the phrase, "You knew what you were getting into, you chose to sin any way, so there is the door." But apparently, such an attitude is okay for students. Forget your past, or your degree of sincerity at the time of signing the honor code - you slip up once, and it means you were never meant for BYU.

Does knowing the 10 commandments guarantee a free ticket to a life free of sin?

Then how does a knowledge of BYU's honor code - a man made code - miraculously imply expected perfection?



Listen, you can argue the honor code all you want. If the honor code is the first thing that pops into your mind when you think of what makes BYU great, that is your rightful opinion- as sad as it is.

Regardless, I'm not here to debate for or against the honor code.

But please, when you are debating in pure favorot it, do not pull the ignorant, obnoxious, and thoughtless idea that agreeing to live the honor code leaves one without mercy or excuse for infractions of it. And please, do not stress the importance of immediate confession, and then in the same breath proclaim that it's just for a school to expel a kid for being human.



(People who have completely missed the point making "Stop justifying sin" accusations in 3...2...1...)

I think you're the one that has missed the point. When you sin, are you surprised that you feel bad? That the Spirit withdraws? No, you aren't because you know those are the consequences of sin, and you knew those consequences before you did the deed.



Likewise, students shouldn't be surprised when an Honor Code violation has consequences.



As far as your creation analogy, there are some 'slip-ups' where you will be 'shown the door' with God as well. While far lesser transgressions will have you out at BYU via the Honor Code, you can't honestly be comparing 4 years of BYU with eternity. If you're getting kicked out of BYU for an Honor Code thing, you're probably going to be losing your temple recommend unless you're being booted for sideburns.



And as for your impression of the Honor Code being "without mercy," I don't think you understand how the Honor Code office works. You don't walk into the Honor Code office and confess your sins if it's something you should be talking with the bishop about--you go to the HC office if you've been reported for sideburns violations or curfew problems. Law of Chastity and Word of Wisdom violations are 100% in the bishop's hands. I've had roommates who had pre-marital sex at BYU, confessed to the bishop, and were only put on probation by the bishop--the HC office never had a clue, and rightfully so. However, if an individual continues down that path, the bishop can withdraw his ecclesiastical endorsement. Once he does that, the HC Office has to boot the person, not for drinking some beers, but because they have no ecclesiastical endorsement.



The bishop makes the choice in Honor Code and WoW and like matters as to whether or not a student stays at BYU--not the HC office. The bishop is the one deciding the exercise mercy or not, not BYU.

I think most of those phrases are preemptive or responses to stupid U fans who say things like "how kicking him out going to help him? What a hypocritical school? etc. etc." These kids know what's expected of them and know the consequences of their actions. It doesn't mean that we expect them to be perfect, it doesn't even mean that we expect that all of them will follow the honor code while they're at BYU, but it means that the only fault and blame falls on them and them alone, not on the school for having standards. That's what the point is of saying those things.

If you read the Tribune and other local articles on the recent events surrounding Unga there are a few lines that I thought were very telling... Both Coach Mendenhall and the other coach both only verbalized their support and interest in the players and their well-being. I was impressed with this and I think it shows that we do care about the individuals, the coaches definately do.

I think it's also important to note that, as Sno pointed out in another thread, Harvey and Keilani decided to withdraw from school; they weren't expelled. Their leaving had nothing to do with any discipline from the Honor Code office. From reading the press release, it seems to me that they weren't ratted out or anything like that; they acknowledged that they had made a mistake and acted like adults, taking full responsibility for their actions. Maybe their bishops would have let them repent and stay, but they felt the right thing to do was withdraw. Either way, we know they weren't kicked out of school.



Anyway, my point is, I don't know why everyone's all up in the Honor Code's grill, so to speak. (Actually, I do. It's because when people feel strongly about something, like the Honor Code, they often don't let silly things like facts get in the way of their opinions)

Yndian wrote:
I think it's also important to note that, as Sno pointed out in another thread, Harvey and Keilani decided to withdraw from school; they weren't expelled. Their leaving had nothing to do with any discipline from the Honor Code office. From reading the press release, it seems to me that they weren't ratted out or anything like that; they acknowledged that they had made a mistake and acted like adults, taking full responsibility for their actions. Maybe their bishops would have let them repent and stay, but they felt the right thing to do was withdraw. Either way, we know they weren't kicked out of school.



Anyway, my point is, I don't know why everyone's all up in the Honor Code's grill, so to speak. (Actually, I do. It's because when people feel strongly about something, like the Honor Code, they often don't let silly things like facts get in the way of their opinions)

Please don't try to make this sound like it was Harvey's top choice. He's already missed out on the only NFL draft anyone cares about to play another year of ball with BYU. You think he suddenly just changed his mind? If Harvey knew he could be walking onto the field to play Washington in Provo in September, he would be. This was a preemptive action. Anyone - including Harvey - who thinks it will be better for him to be surrounded by NFL players than BYU players has lost their mind.

The shocking thing is that many of you were the same ones slamming Manti Te'o for leaving for Notre Dame. Suddenly the NFL is better? I'm not calling you all hypocrites, but either that's the case, or you're just not too firm in your shifting convictions yet.



And I wouldn't say "everyone" is all up on the HC's grill. Most people are defending it as if it's the prophet himself, which comes as no surprise to me.

Tsk Tsk Italics..

"If so-and-so can't live the honor code, he/she shouldn't have signed it."

So let me get this straight: the people who say things like this were able to see 4 years into the future when they came to BYU, and knew for a fact that they would never sin? Even with peer pressure? Or in the "Heat of the moment" when the opportunity to sin presented itself? For someone to suggest such a thing takes pride and self-righteousness to whole new levels.

That is a tiresome attempt at a strawman argument. We'll put aside the fact that none of this applies to Harvey / Keilani since we simply can't know whether their bishops would endorse them or not.



If this came from someone outside BYU/LDS culture, it might have a chance at sounding sincere. but from you Itallics? You know as well as anyone that:



[ signing the HC and knowing what it means ] does NOT equal [ promising that you will never sin ]



You know that:



1. BYU Ecclesiastical Endorsement allows for repentance in the same way that LDS church discipline does.



2. Endorsing officers must make a judgement call on attitude, stated willingness, and observed actions/choices to determine whether a individual is likely to remain willing to live the honor code.



So why interpret "if you can't live it don't sign it" to mean "perfectly predict you'll not sin otherwise don't bother going to school at BYU" when you know perfectly well that's not what it means?



Why not interpret that shorthand as "if you can't believe that you would be willing to repent and work with a bishop when you make mistakes that require it, then don't come to BYU. That school strives to serve those that believe they would be willing to do that work?"



If you are looking for a way to express your frustration over apparent incongrutiy in Honor Code policy outcomes, I sympathize, but you are off to a bad start.



Admittedly, it makes one squirm to think these kids future is so dramatically altered by doing something that student athletes all accross the country appear to do, as a matter of rote almost, who suffer nothing near the same consequences.



I don't know if this is where you are going, but here is what occured to me: Doesn't this situation mean that Harvey has basically lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars of personal income--maybe even millions-- and Keilani possibly tens of thousands? And by extention, doesn't that mean that we as a church and culture accept and support this simply because we believe something so inexact as the honor code has more value than what that money could do for those individuals future families?



If we believe such things are we justified in doing so?



I think that is a worthwhile (not to mention lively debate) if you dare to take it up.



But I must warn you, I sit crouched, with twitching tail, waiting to spring... :evil:

The purpose of the school is NOT the same as the purpose of the church, its quorums, the hometeachers, quorum leaders, bishoprics, stake presidencies, etc. Please learn to differentiate.

Another example of why BYU is not always the best fit for some kids, and that is ok. BYU has been losing contributors lately over HC issues, and in spite of Bronco's best efforts, I expect it to continue. I also expect to see some recruits we all want to see at BYU go other places. The HC will continue to sift athletes at BYU. Just the reality.

Italics wrote:

Please don't try to make this sound like it was Harvey's top choice. He's already missed out on the only NFL draft anyone cares about to play another year of ball with BYU. You think he suddenly just changed his mind? If Harvey knew he could be walking onto the field to play Washington in Provo in September, he would be. This was a preemptive action. Anyone - including Harvey - who thinks it will be better for him to be surrounded by NFL players than BYU players has lost their mind.

The shocking thing is that many of you were the same ones slamming Manti Te'o for leaving for Notre Dame. Suddenly the NFL is better? I'm not calling you all hypocrites, but either that's the case, or you're just not too firm in your shifting convictions yet.

First of all, what's your point? That Harvey wanted to come back but wouldn't have been able to? Remind me again when it was that Harvey or Coach Mendenhall or anyone from BYU said that? While we're "Please don't"-ing, Please don't try to sound like you know why Harvey made the choice to enter the supplemental draft instead of trying to re-enroll next year. Call me naive, but I trust that Harvey is doing what he thinks is right, not only in a career sense, but with regards to getting his life on the track it needs to be on.



Second of all, where is your reading comprehension? What does your comment have to do with mine? Did I say anything about the NFL? Did I say that the NFL will be a better environment for Harvey than BYU? No, I was simply applauding Harvey and Keilani for responsibly trying to make the best of their situation after making a mistake. Huge differences and holes in your reply compared to what I said. I'm really confused as to where you came up with the whole NFL tangent, since I didn't say a thing about the NFl, or even football, in my post.



But once again, don't let what I actually said get in the way of what you want to think I said.



Also, stop trying to justify sin.

I hope, Italics, that you are also for players and coaches demanding more money than they are contractually guaranteed,. I mean, why follow contractually bargained agreemnets accepted and agreed upon, when feelings and emotions are involved? Unga agreed to receive a subsidized education (free, even) provided he followed a serious of rules. You will find his signature on the bottom of those letters.



And your "find me one person that lives it perfeclty" argument is weak at best... My wife followed it while she was there, until we were married. I thought it was super-annoying (I didn't go to BYU) all the rules and what-have-you, but a flawed HC is better than no HC.



Although your agression is admirable, it is misguided. The only thing holding our society together is the value that some of us choose to place in the validity of contracts (ie business contracts, marriages, etc.)) Following the rules of a contract is the only hope for our society.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we don't have the freedom to choose the consequences of our actions.

urroner wrote:
We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we don't have the freedom to choose the consequences of our actions.

I wish I had the freedom to choose not to look at your avatar, Urroner . . . It still makes my stomach a little uneasy. :sick:



Besides, aren't those pigtails an honor code violation? :lol:

BYULV wrote:

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we don't have the freedom to choose the consequences of our actions.

I wish I had the freedom to choose not to look at your avatar, Urroner . . . It still makes my stomach a little uneasy. :sick:



Besides, aren't those pigtails an honor code violation? :lol:

Have you ever heard of a hermaphrodite????

Unga made a mistake. We have all made mistakes. I hope the best for him and still hold out hope that coming back to byu is in his best interest. We would be lucky to have him back. All the honor code stuff is his own business and we should refrain from expressing our opinion on it. We don't know what happened or how he feels about it.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I hope, Italics, that you are also for players and coaches demanding more money than they are contractually guaranteed,. I mean, why follow contractually bargained agreemnets accepted and agreed upon, when feelings and emotions are involved? Unga agreed to receive a subsidized education (free, even) provided he followed a serious of rules. You will find his signature on the bottom of those letters.



And your "find me one person that lives it perfeclty" argument is weak at best... My wife followed it while she was there, until we were married. I thought it was super-annoying (I didn't go to BYU) all the rules and what-have-you, but a flawed HC is better than no HC.



Although your agression is admirable, it is misguided. The only thing holding our society together is the value that some of us choose to place in the validity of contracts (ie business contracts, marriages, etc.)) Following the rules of a contract is the only hope for our society.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

You're missing the point.

Nowhere am I debating the mechanics of the HC. I understand how it works. as I said earlier, my wife herself is on the HC committee here at BYU-I (which I'll point out a tenth time - works the same as the one in Provo, save the HC here is actually a bit stricter on some small issues). She also helps determine if students who were booted for HC violations in the past should be re-admitted.



So I know how it works, and I'm not arguing the mechanics of it. I'll leave that to those who don't understand it. If they want to figure it out they can. I don't need to at this point.



But just because something is the way it is doesn't mean you can't be against the way it is. The HC turning Harvey Unga's life into a reality TV show for the twisted entertainment of Utahns is "the way it is" - but it's not right.

I'm not debating what the contract reads - I'm debating how good the contract is itself.



PS - You typed that whole thing from your phone!? :bug:

Italics wrote:

I hope, Italics, that you are also for players and coaches demanding more money than they are contractually guaranteed,. I mean, why follow contractually bargained agreemnets accepted and agreed upon, when feelings and emotions are involved? Unga agreed to receive a subsidized education (free, even) provided he followed a serious of rules. You will find his signature on the bottom of those letters.



And your "find me one person that lives it perfeclty" argument is weak at best... My wife followed it while she was there, until we were married. I thought it was super-annoying (I didn't go to BYU) all the rules and what-have-you, but a flawed HC is better than no HC.



Although your agression is admirable, it is misguided. The only thing holding our society together is the value that some of us choose to place in the validity of contracts (ie business contracts, marriages, etc.)) Following the rules of a contract is the only hope for our society.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

You're missing the point.

Nowhere am I debating the mechanics of the HC. I understand how it works. as I said earlier, my wife herself is on the HC committee here at BYU-I (which I'll point out a tenth time - works the same as the one in Provo, save the HC here is actually a bit stricter on some small issues). She also helps determine if students who were booted for HC violations in the past should be re-admitted.



So I know how it works, and I'm not arguing the mechanics of it. I'll leave that to those who don't understand it. If they want to figure it out they can. I don't need to at this point.



But just because something is the way it is doesn't mean you can't be against the way it is. The HC turning Harvey Unga's life into a reality TV show for the twisted entertainment of Utahns is "the way it is" - but it's not right.

I'm not debating what the contract reads - I'm debating how good the contract is itself.



PS - You typed that whole thing from your phone!? :bug:

Yeah, lol. I got bored in church, when some "me monster" got up and started talking about how awesome he is. It was distract myself, or punch him in the face. Luckily I had my safety net in place... Ok, I can see your side of it. I am glad that you didn't go down the arguing the validity of contracts path, we need as many moral people backing contracts as we can (as a business owner, my life LITERALLY depends on it). I will be the first to tell you that the HC is goofy and I can't get 100% behind it... but a flawed HC is better than no HC in my opinion.



How do you see the HC working better in this particular situation? Because I have read some of your other posts, and I agree with you about the dogma of the Mormon church (consider myself to be a strong member, albeit a free thinker) and how we as members misinterpret the true teachings of the gospel and use them as ways to promote guilt and motivation etc. You are fighting a losing battle if you want to take on that tidal wave, my friend... This isn't exactly the right forum to take it on, either. I agree with most of the things that you are saying in a way too, it is just the wrong message for a lot of people. So I "backrow it" and raise my hand when things get a little too creepy-zealot for me, and we kind of tone things down from there. I really don't see any other grandiose thing that we can do other than raise our kids as right as we can, and hope the trend continues. So back to the subject matter, what, if any improvements can be made to the HC system? I like the HC in place, because if I am being 100% honest, I don't want to pay tithing to a Chico State type school, if you will (that might just be the business owner in me wanting to make smart "investments" which I know is dumb, but it's engrained in me) that could be a spawning ground for all things quick and easy.

jonnylingo wrote:
Unga made a mistake. We have all made mistakes. I hope the best for him and still hold out hope that coming back to byu is in his best interest. We would be lucky to have him back. All the honor code stuff is his own business and we should refrain from expressing our opinion on it. We don't know what happened or how he feels about it.

I agree completely with you on this, and that is all I'll say on this subject.

Italics wrote:
...



But just because something is the way it is doesn't mean you can't be against the way it is. The HC turning Harvey Unga's life into a reality TV show for the twisted entertainment of Utahns is "the way it is" - but it's not right.

Oh I know! I can't believe that the HC would force someone into a position where they made some kind of choice that they then componded by the choice to withdraw from school and forego a lucruative opportunity one year out. This whole thing is the flawed HC's fault!!



Harvey had no choice to do what he did!



I call B.S.



You can't have it both ways italics. You can't claim to know how the HC works and then try to say the HC is flawed and THAT's why Harvey is stuck where he is.



Harvey is where he is because of HARVEY!!



If you really think that the honor code caused Harvey's problems because it is too rigid, YOU are missing the point by a several hundred miles.



Once again, the HC doesn't even apply because they withdrew. To say that you KNOW that honor code policy would have kept them out of school next year is to either break news or make wild speculation.



You have yet to prove your point on the basis of any reasonable argument.

Yzzazz wrote:

...



But just because something is the way it is doesn't mean you can't be against the way it is. The HC turning Harvey Unga's life into a reality TV show for the twisted entertainment of Utahns is "the way it is" - but it's not right.

Oh I know! I can't believe that the HC would force someone into a position where they made some kind of choice that they then componded by the choice to withdraw from school and forego a lucruative opportunity one year out. This whole thing is the flawed HC's fault!!



Harvey had no choice to do what he did!



I call B.S.



You can't have it both ways italics. You can't claim to know how the HC works and then try to say the HC is flawed and THAT's why Harvey is stuck where he is.



Harvey is where he is because of HARVEY!!



If you really think that the honor code caused Harvey's problems because it is too rigid, YOU are missing the point by a several hundred miles.



Once again, the HC doesn't even apply because they withdrew. To say that you KNOW that honor code policy would have kept them out of school next year is to either break news or make wild speculation.



You have yet to prove your point on the basis of any reasonable argument.

I don't believe I ever said anywhere that Harvey didn't make a poor decision, or that he hasn't brought some of this upon himself.

Seeing as that was basically the premise of your entire post, I don't think there's really much use to comment further on it. If using Harvey's human weaknesses as an excuse for everything/everyone else that is wrong with this situation makes you feel good, great.