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Heaps to start?

by SpiffCoug · 3/27/2010

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SpiffCoug
http://www.byucougs.com/2010/03/spring-camp-week-2-qb-battle-update.html



If I'm a BYU coach, there is one question with two parts I need to answer before I pick a starting QB. The question is:



Which QB is going to be the most productive come fall to help my team win the most games?



The link shows that Heaps through the first two weeks of camp has been the most effective not only in week two, but through both weeks as well.



I know Bronco has said he'd like to name a QB coming out of spring and then he also said he wasn't going to rush a decision, but to me, it looks like Bronco will be able to name a starter after spring ball and I think that's going to be Heaps.
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craigoscarson
kitic77 wrote:
http://www.byucougs.com/2010/03/spring-camp-week-2-qb-battle-update.html



If I'm a BYU coach, there is one question with two parts I need to answer before I pick a starting QB. The question is:



Which QB is going to be the most productive come fall to help my team win the most games?



The link shows that Heaps through the first two weeks of camp has been the most effective not only in week two, but through both weeks as well.



I know Bronco has said he'd like to name a QB coming out of spring and then he also said he wasn't going to rush a decision, but to me, it looks like Bronco will be able to name a starter after spring ball and I think that's going to be Heaps.


If it's going to be Heaps, I think you keep it under wraps til the fall to avoid several things.

1. transfers (we need the depth and competition over the summer and into the fall)

2. entitlement (if a true freshman is going to take the reigns, they better damn well earn it over the summer or they're going to lose the team and the veterans... he has to show he's the hardest worker on the team.... the fact that his family is moving to Provo to live down there is a good sign that he'll have all the moral support (and laundry help) that a true freshman would need to make it work... that's a very complex balancing act for a true frosh and the more family support he can get the better)

3. riley nelson brings something to byu and gameplanning for us that we can use, let him have the summer to improve on it, don't show your cards too soon on this

4. if this happens, ultimately we're going to lose a qb (so the later you can make the decision the longer you can keep the valuable depth at qb for scout team potential injury etc.); it makes zero sense for Lark or Munns to stick around unless they're going to be #2 on the depth chart; if Heaps starts, then that obviously means Heaps doesn't redshirt; which pushes the entire gang down the depth chart.. if we lose scholarship players, I'll immediately look back on losing Ricky Heimuli.. a guy we could have used but we couldn't promise a scholarship to.

5. If it's Heaps; then the entire Heaps family (and every BYU fan rooting for Jake to start) better start thanking the Oline and Harvey Unga. If those starters weren't there and experienced, there's no way it would make sense to throw a true freshman to the wolves (particularly in our brutal noncon). If Harvey doesn't come back, Riley Nelson gets the nod as a stabilizing factor.
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BigCougsFan
When was the last time we've seen a Freshman QB out-practice the other more "experienced" QB's???



"Week 1 & 2 Cumulative Stat Lines

Nelson: 12/22 (55%), 84 yds, 1 TD, 1 int

Lark: 16/26 (62%), 128 yds, 0 TDs, 2 int*

Heaps: 26/39 (67%), 380 yds, 5 TDs, 0 int



*I inadvertently left off one of Lark’s interceptions from last week and have added it here"
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CougarClaw
BigCougsFan wrote:
When was the last time we've seen a Freshman QB out-practice the other more "experienced" QB's???



"Week 1 & 2 Cumulative Stat Lines

Nelson: 12/22 (55%), 84 yds, 1 TD, 1 int

Lark: 16/26 (62%), 128 yds, 0 TDs, 2 int*

Heaps: 26/39 (67%), 380 yds, 5 TDs, 0 int



*I inadvertently left off one of Lark’s interceptions from last week and have added it here"


So, since Nelson also present a run threat, shouldn't all-purpose yards be included in the comparison? I mean, if Nelson ran for 200 yards during this same time, that would be important to know.



of course, if they just need someone to hand the ball off to harvey, i might do it for free.
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Cougarbib
Now maybe I am forgetting somebody - but all this talk about QBs transferring is very short-sighted - I hope these athletes are not short-sighted. Name a BYU football or basketball player that transferred from BYU to make it big someplace that is even close to BYU in reputation. For whatever reason - injuries, competition, reality check, etc., they seem to find out that they can either be a big fish in a tiny pond like they were in high school or that perhaps they just are what they are.



Don't get me wrong - it happens. Troy Aikman was aparently ill-suited for Oklahoma but did really well on the west coast. JC transfers in like Sark sometimes do well - but they don't leave the JC because someone beat them out of a job - they leave because JC is a 2 year deal. Nelson is a transfer in - but not because someone beat him out of a job. So let's keep the list to guys who didn't like their place on the depth chart and moved to greener pastures. I will start the list



Troy Aikman 0h - oops that was not BYU



So let's keep it to BYU transfers in or out due to not liking where they were on the depth chart



I draw a blank all of a sudden



It wasn't Drew MIller because Montana or wherever he went does not count

It wasn't Ryan Cuff or Ben Olsen who went to the PAC 10 - oh yeah then ego maniac Cuff transferred a 2nd time to star at Weber State. How do you spell Olsen Olson anyway - I guess it doesn't matter as it turned out. UCLA had a QB with each spelling - They can't rmember how to spell Ben's either. And yes, I have met Ben, seen him play in high school, had him sign my kid's BYU hat, have a very close relative that played with him in high school, and a wife who worked with his mom - nice kid - shoulda stayed.



It wasn't the #1 consensus national pick guy from Irvine that shunned BYU for Duke, got Roger Reid fired, and then transferred to Utah after his plan to go NBA in 1 year fizzled. I can't remember his name even though I was at his high school with a bunch of other BYU fans and zero Duke fans when he put on the Duke hat.

It hasn't yet been the guy who just went to Nevada - and does Nevada really count anyway?



It certainly wasn't the 4th string Soph QB of a string of 5 Soph QBs at BYU that transferred before the season started and I can't never even remember his name - the 5th string QB - Tom Young stayed that year and due to injuries too numerous to count in the depth chart, started the bowl game and won MVP. Later he fizzled and proved that he was about the right spot on the depth chart.

Speaking of that year it was not the leftie Steve Clements who was #2 and transferred in from Texas - he got injured on his first play from scrimmage after the #1 QB was injured on the previous play - that is right - 2 highly touted QBs out for the season on 2 consecutive plays against UH iirc in Cougar stadium. And later - well he wasn't as good as his leftie that can run and throw hype.



So quit messin with these boy's minds. They are here for a reason. If they are good enough - they will play and they will show their stuff if they are ready when their time comes - a loser would not bother to prepare assuming they will not play and then not be ready when the time comes.



Speaking of the Young brothers. Steve Young was way down the depth chart and projected to switch to defense - lefty that could run pretty well iirc - but stuck it out and - well - I can sure remember his name as a result. His younger brothers, Mike and Tom Young - both of whom beat many of his high school records at the same high school - well they only briefly climbed up the depth charts when those ahead of them got injured or did not perform - but then proved on the field that they were good but not great and the system worked. But Mike did get a shot in the Freedom Bowl in Anaheim against UCLA iirc and Tom got his MVP shot in the Holiday Bowl against Kansas or maybe Iowa - I forget which one. We lost by 3 points iirc.



McMahon was furious after sitting behind Gifford Nielsen and Marc Wilson and then getting red-shirted after his sophomore season so that Wilson could go 12-1 or so. But he stuck it out - and - I can still remember his name pretty well too. Luckily he didn't get kicked out of school That can always happen too. In fact wasn't there a highly touted QB a decade or so ago that according to rumor got caught with some liquids on the banned substance list and transferred out. I forget his name too. Stuff happens. You can go through 4 highly touted QBs (RBs etc.) very quickly due to injury, behavior, Ronnie Jenkins anyone - or just not being as good as advertised. Did I mention academic reasons too.



You young bucks may not remember - but I sure remember a BYU QB getting a hand injury in the Fiesta Bowl iirc (early Edwards era), and wishing BYU had someone else ready to step in cuz we lost a close game.



Oh and did I mention that on occasion, players get restless and go to the NFL early - John Walsh shouldn't have - but he did. Collie was apparently prudent in his decision to do so. Staley was injured so it didn't matter in the end. Oh yeah - all everything - but injured. Stuff hapens.



Anyway - can someone start the list for me - BYU xfers in or out due to depth chart frustration that ended up having it work big for them in the greener pasture they sought - or were they just ego trips?



OK maybe and I mean maybe the basketball player from Ventura County who transferred to Okla State or somewhere like that - reminded me of Tavernari - a gunner in his early years that needed to choose his shots more wisely. I can't remember his name either.



I will start a very different list -



Frustrated players who stuck it out through depth Chart frustrations - and made it big



Jim McMahon

Steve Young

Brandon Doman

Andrew George

Robbie Bosco



And I already listed



Several players who should have stayed where they were

Ben Olsen

Drew Miller - maybe a tiny exception if you like Montana

The 4th string nameless QB

I forgot to mention Ryan Hancock who left to play baseball professionally and briefly

Ryan Cuff

Steve Clements

The guy with the stuff under his bed (beverage)



Feel free to add to the above



But I need help with this list



Players who came or went due to depth chart frustration and made it big somewhere else of significance



????
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craigoscarson
So quit messin with these boy's minds. They are here for a reason. If they are good enough - they will play and they will show their stuff if they are ready when their time comes - a loser would not bother to prepare assuming they will not play and then not be ready when the time comes.

For starters, no one is suggesting that Lark, Munns etc would be better off transferring; but we are stating the obvious... if Heaps gets the job, some talented kid may sit the pine for their career and the potential for transferring exists.



Would it be a smart decision? Who knows.. obviously in BYU history, transferring has not panned out, but just because we state what could happen, doesn't mean that we're "putting it in their minds"



history suggests that someone will transfer... what we do know is that BYU hasn't let a transfer qb get away that really panned out elsewhere in D1 football



we have had other positions transfer that played well (cj ah you played in the nfl etc)



if you're worried about a kid transferring, it won't be the people talking about potential transfers that will create it anyhow; it'll be every tom, dick, and harry giving Heaps the nod before the coaches do.



btw - the Duke to Utah to nowhere kid was Chris Burgess

other transfers at qb that never panned out : cade cooper, jacob bower



a transfer that did pan out? Max Hall did not want to sit behind Carpenter... that worked out nicely for us
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SpiffCoug
If I'm Nelson, I'm not transferring. I've already done that once. And there is a good chance he winds up starting a few games over the next few years due to injury.



I don't think Lark or Munns will transfer. I could see one or both of them change positions however.
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BigCougsFan
Cougarbib2 wrote:
Now maybe I am forgetting somebody - but all this talk about QBs transferring is very short-sighted - I hope these athletes are not short-sighted. Name a BYU football or basketball player that transferred from BYU to make it big someplace that is even close to BYU in reputation. For whatever reason - injuries, competition, reality check, etc., they seem to find out that they can either be a big fish in a tiny pond like they were in high school or that perhaps they just are what they are.



Don't get me wrong - it happens. Troy Aikman was aparently ill-suited for Oklahoma but did really well on the west coast. JC transfers in like Sark sometimes do well - but they don't leave the JC because someone beat them out of a job - they leave because JC is a 2 year deal. Nelson is a transfer in - but not because someone beat him out of a job. So let's keep the list to guys who didn't like their place on the depth chart and moved to greener pastures. I will start the list



Troy Aikman 0h - oops that was not BYU



So let's keep it to BYU transfers in or out due to not liking where they were on the depth chart



I draw a blank all of a sudden



It wasn't Drew MIller because Montana or wherever he went does not count

It wasn't Ryan Cuff or Ben Olsen who went to the PAC 10 - oh yeah then ego maniac Cuff transferred a 2nd time to star at Weber State. How do you spell Olsen Olson anyway - I guess it doesn't matter as it turned out. UCLA had a QB with each spelling - They can't rmember how to spell Ben's either. And yes, I have met Ben, seen him play in high school, had him sign my kid's BYU hat, have a very close relative that played with him in high school, and a wife who worked with his mom - nice kid - shoulda stayed.



It wasn't the #1 consensus national pick guy from Irvine that shunned BYU for Duke, got Roger Reid fired, and then transferred to Utah after his plan to go NBA in 1 year fizzled. I can't remember his name even though I was at his high school with a bunch of other BYU fans and zero Duke fans when he put on the Duke hat.

It hasn't yet been the guy who just went to Nevada - and does Nevada really count anyway?



It certainly wasn't the 4th string Soph QB of a string of 5 Soph QBs at BYU that transferred before the season started and I can't never even remember his name - the 5th string QB - Tom Young stayed that year and due to injuries too numerous to count in the depth chart, started the bowl game and won MVP. Later he fizzled and proved that he was about the right spot on the depth chart.

Speaking of that year it was not the leftie Steve Clements who was #2 and transferred in from Texas - he got injured on his first play from scrimmage after the #1 QB was injured on the previous play - that is right - 2 highly touted QBs out for the season on 2 consecutive plays against UH iirc in Cougar stadium. And later - well he wasn't as good as his leftie that can run and throw hype.



So quit messin with these boy's minds. They are here for a reason. If they are good enough - they will play and they will show their stuff if they are ready when their time comes - a loser would not bother to prepare assuming they will not play and then not be ready when the time comes.



Speaking of the Young brothers. Steve Young was way down the depth chart and projected to switch to defense - lefty that could run pretty well iirc - but stuck it out and - well - I can sure remember his name as a result. His younger brothers, Mike and Tom Young - both of whom beat many of his high school records at the same high school - well they only briefly climbed up the depth charts when those ahead of them got injured or did not perform - but then proved on the field that they were good but not great and the system worked. But Mike did get a shot in the Freedom Bowl in Anaheim against UCLA iirc and Tom got his MVP shot in the Holiday Bowl against Kansas or maybe Iowa - I forget which one. We lost by 3 points iirc.



McMahon was furious after sitting behind Gifford Nielsen and Marc Wilson and then getting red-shirted after his sophomore season so that Wilson could go 12-1 or so. But he stuck it out - and - I can still remember his name pretty well too. Luckily he didn't get kicked out of school That can always happen too. In fact wasn't there a highly touted QB a decade or so ago that according to rumor got caught with some liquids on the banned substance list and transferred out. I forget his name too. Stuff happens. You can go through 4 highly touted QBs (RBs etc.) very quickly due to injury, behavior, Ronnie Jenkins anyone - or just not being as good as advertised. Did I mention academic reasons too.



You young bucks may not remember - but I sure remember a BYU QB getting a hand injury in the Fiesta Bowl iirc (early Edwards era), and wishing BYU had someone else ready to step in cuz we lost a close game.



Oh and did I mention that on occasion, players get restless and go to the NFL early - John Walsh shouldn't have - but he did. Collie was apparently prudent in his decision to do so. Staley was injured so it didn't matter in the end. Oh yeah - all everything - but injured. Stuff hapens.



Anyway - can someone start the list for me - BYU xfers in or out due to depth chart frustration that ended up having it work big for them in the greener pasture they sought - or were they just ego trips?



OK maybe and I mean maybe the basketball player from Ventura County who transferred to Okla State or somewhere like that - reminded me of Tavernari - a gunner in his early years that needed to choose his shots more wisely. I can't remember his name either.



I will start a very different list -



Frustrated players who stuck it out through depth Chart frustrations - and made it big



Jim McMahon

Steve Young

Brandon Doman

Andrew George

Robbie Bosco



And I already listed



Several players who should have stayed where they were

Ben Olsen

Drew Miller - maybe a tiny exception if you like Montana

The 4th string nameless QB

I forgot to mention Ryan Hancock who left to play baseball professionally and briefly

Ryan Cuff

Steve Clements

The guy with the stuff under his bed (beverage)



Feel free to add to the above



But I need help with this list



Players who came or went due to depth chart frustration and made it big somewhere else of significance



????


Cut out the fat... I lost interest on the 50th paragraph.


craigoscarson wrote:
a transfer that did pan out? Max Hall did not want to sit behind Ryan Carpenter... that worked out nicely for us


Actually it was Rudy Carpenter.
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BigCougsFan
kitic77 wrote:
I don't think Lark or Munns will transfer. I could see one or both of them change positions however.


I don't really know how athletic they both are. What positions would they be good at??? Pull a Paul Kruger and go to DE?
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craigoscarson
BigCougsFan wrote:
I don't think Lark or Munns will transfer. I could see one or both of them change positions however.


I don't really know how athletic they both are. What positions would they be good at??? Pull a Paul Kruger and go to DE?


I heard we need more depth at tight end ;)
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BigCougsFan
craigoscarson wrote:
kitic77 wrote:
I don't think Lark or Munns will transfer. I could see one or both of them change positions however.


I don't really know how athletic they both are. What positions would they be good at??? Pull a Paul Kruger and go to DE?


I heard we need more depth at tight end ;)


:lol: I was thinking we don't have enough TE's
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scott715
Mumms could go to another school since he is on his mission ,or did the new NCAA rule make him sit out a year? Bronco could say next week that Riley is the starter and Heaps will be playing this year. I don't know if a freshman can truely organize the workouts this summer having not been through it before. Then Fall camp will be the tryout again with Lark being better prepared. Then Bronco can call the starter early in Fall camp, and that could be Heaps if nothing has changed in the QBs since Spring.
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bigbluepuma
I read a national article once about QBs who transfer. The gist was that very few pan out. I think that most would have a greater chance of success with the team and system that they first learned, rather than keep learning new systems, and never getting one down to the point of proficiency.



Another player that stayed and found success late was a TE (Jolley, I think). He didn't play much until the last half of his senior year, then lit the world on fire and went on to be an all pro, as I recall.
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Cougarbib
Big Cougar Fan - then u missed the best part! ;)



Here is the short version. With all most no exceptions, QBs and other players that transfer due to frustrations about where they find themselves on the depth chart usually find themselves at about the same place on the depth chart at the new school with 1 less year to work their way up said depth chart.



Players who are patient, assuming they are good enough, always get their chance due to injury, suspensions, academics, improvement, guys going NFL early, etc.



Some players just aren't as good as their hype or as good as they think they are - transferring is not the solution for that.



Troy AIkman is one notable exception. If Max Hall transferred to BYU due to concerns about depth chart and PT - then he would also be an exception. Conversely, If he left because the spirit told him he belonged at BYU, then he does not meet the criteria. He never seemed to me to be one who would shun a fight and the position at BYU was certainly not handed to him on a silver platter.



In any event - these guys should stay and develop and trust in the Lord that if they have the ability they will get a chance to show it.



Go Cougs
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redneckjedi
In fairness to Ryan Hancock, he did extremely well when he went in right up until he had a football-career-ending injury thanks to a yewt cheap shot out of bounds. I have no problem with his decision to go with baseball given that he was already drafted, the type of injury he had, and the natural fear that it could happen again if he stuck with football - but probably not with baseball. You don't see a lot of pitchers with horrific leg injuries being carted off the field with a brace from hip to ankle.
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rblack
Bronco Mendenhall has a consistent attitude towards football. Starting positions are earned, not given based on talent or potential alone. Based on the results the last few years, I have no problem with that attitude. They will win (or lose) with the hardest working players on the field.
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Cougarbib
Ryan Hancock quickly fizzled into oblivion after 4 quick wins as a starter for the California Angels. The Angel's GM, who actually coached my son in little league basketball as an Assistant Coach - said something about short arm??? I never knew what that meant. He would have done well to stick with football, but if he liked baseball better then so be it.
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Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
If it's Heaps; then the entire Heaps family (and every BYU fan rooting for Jake to start) better start thanking the Oline and Harvey Unga. If those starters weren't there and experienced, there's no way it would make sense to throw a true freshman to the wolves (particularly in our brutal noncon). If Harvey doesn't come back, Riley Nelson gets the nod as a stabilizing factor.

That makes a lot of sense. If you have a good O-Line, you should start your best quarterback. If you have a poor O-Line, bench your best QB. Genius. :roll:
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