Honor Code office, ie HOA

There has been a bit more talk lately about the Honor Code office at BYU,including protests. I rarely listen to 1280 sports talk radio, but my regular station was playing commercials and I just checked on their topic. It was BYU's Honor Code office as Gordon Monson had written an article over the last week on the Honor Code, and he wrote it with BYU's running back legend, Luke Staley.



It did get me thinking. I really could relate BYU's Honor Code office to the dreaded HOA's. My wife was a feature of a KSL TV news story some 5 years ago about having put a flag on our mailbox while our son was deployed to Afghanistan and the HOA attempted to get us to take it down. I loathed that HOA. They were like Nazi spies even looking in people's backyards, which they didn't have a right to be able to look into, just to find violations they could report and would likewise support their need to be employed.



It bothered me so much that we were paying individuals to go out and find violations. That was their job and the whole purpose of their existence. That same scenario exists with the Honor Code department at BYU. You get rid of it and some people will lose their jobs. Still, their existence depends on them finding violations. If there were no violations reported whatsoever, then I doubt the University would continue to fund the department.



It carries into one of the other areas in our lives that drives me nuts with lack of logic. Police forces are hired to safeguard the populous. Many offices though have gotten strung out on speeding monies to fund more and more staff and then they end up going out and buying "spy cars", vehicles that look like a soccer mom's van or other non-attention attracting type vehicle to hide it to catch more and more speeders. While I like that there is some establishment of the rule of law and order related to traffic, the concept of organizations becoming dependent on finding non-lethal types of violations to support themselves (they don't spend the time trying to find real criminals involved with thefts, drugs, etc.) really rubs against the the whole basis of these organizations existing to safeguard the people.



Abolish the Honor Code office. We don't need it. Yes, there will be situations where people need to be expelled from school as a result of their actions, but that happens at every university and they don't have Honor Code offices. Let the admissions office coordinate those issues and kick it back to the individual who has to give their ecclesiastic endorsement to deal privately with an individual with major violations.



The most wonderful thing happened 3 or so years ago. Our HOA got caught infringing on the rights of another HOA and took authority where they contractually had no right. The offended HOA took them to court and won and bankrupted our HOA with their multi-million dollar judgement. So we have had no HOA in our development now for 3 years. It is wonderful. I haven't noticed the deterioration of the neighborhood whatsoever. If something is major out of line, it is covered by the laws of Eagle Mountain and they will step in, but we're not being bothered by individuals slithering in the dark shadows looking at every minute detail of our lives to justify their positions of their employment.



ABOLISH THE HONOR CODE OFFICE !!!! (to borrow a Church slogan, "It's time.")

I know this isn't football, but there is so little traffic on Cougar Corner these days that I didn't think anyone would notice if I posted this on one of the non-sports forums. I just dislike CougarBoard's general populous that denigrate everything everyone says. Here there is more decorum, as their should be.

I'd throw a little different view on it--HOAs are not universally bad--just like cops aren't universally bad, government isn't universally bad, etc. I lived under one years ago and there were some restrictions on things you could do but we understood and complied. The HOA provided some common-space amenities that we took advantage of such as pool and picnic areas and they maintained things well. I had no problem with them and the way they were run--the neighborhood was desirable to live in and property values remained high. It isn't the only formula for a desirable neighborhood but it worked.



As far as the honor code office goes, I doubt they are running around looking into the "backyards" of the 30k students at BYU to try and justify their jobs. I was at BYU for 5 years and never had any dealings with the office at all. My daughter attended a nearby 4 year university and had a horrible living condition experience--and would have loved if there was an HCO to support her. She moved down for school and signed a 1 year contract in an apartment not knowing any roommates before arriving. The housing was a large complex near the campus (not on the BYU-approved housing list). One evening she came home from being out and entered the bedroom quietly leaving the light off since her roommate had already gone to bed. She started changing for bed and then realized her roommate's boyfriend was in the roommate's bed with her. She was not going to sleep in the same room as the couple so slept on the couch instead. Her roommate either didn't care or didn't acknowledge the inconvenience and this pattern happened fairly often that semester. The university would not help her with this situation since a student's housing conditions was not their problem. The apartment complex also did not lend any assistance either--telling the roommates to work it out. They allowed her to change apartments after the semester was over--but would not let her out of the year-long contract she signed.



If you haven't yet had the chance, find the honor code office Q&A--they indicated that most issues they come by do not result in students being kicked out of school. Out of the population of 30k+, there are 10-15 expelled per year for serious unrepentant violations of the honor code. For all the grief they take, that is a minuscule impact. There has been shadiness like the BYU police officer digging for dirt on people to share with the HCO--and I'm glad that was discovered and dealt with--and the pending de-certification action should further resolve that situation (I hate the university's non-transparent response). I support honor code reform--particularly in the dress and grooming standards. I'd also love to see the enforcement be lenient towards those working to deal with issues and their ecclesiastical leader--having "good standing" and "working through issues to good standing" being the same positive outcome. But I think abolishing the HCO would have unintended consequences resulting in a more negative experience for more students.

BYU is no different from Texas Christian without the Honor Code and I wouldn't be a fan or support them without it.



That doesn't mean there aren't opportunities to change and improve. BYU police should not be getting private, illegally obtained records from other agencies for example. I'd also be willing to have policies on dress and grooming altered a bit.



But I have no problem with someone who is willfully and knowingly breaking the honor code being turned into the HCO where they can either get the help they need to change or be allowed to find a schooling situation that is more suited to them and their lifestyle than BYU thus opening a spot for one of the 100,000 kids who are willing to live the Honor Code who got turned down, and making life easier for their roommates.



Now, a kid who makes a one-time mistake but wants to repent and stay at BYU, sure, work with them and help them achieve that. If you read the HCO FAQ that's exactly what they are intending to do, which is why of all the HCO cases they work, only a dozen ever get expelled.

Great post. I fully agree.

I went to the sticter Ricks College/BYU-I and loved it and never had a run in with the honor code there. I also never felt that there were people waiting to turn me in if I made a mistake.



It's definitely possible that the BYU Provo HCO storries I've heard are either made up or embellished. But I do not like what I've heard.



I've said this before. Let the HONOR Code be "on your HONOR." Let your mistakes be between you, the Lord, and when necessary your Bishop so that you can repent properly. No need for an unHonorable Code Office. Teach people the rules and let them govern themselves. Have I heard that somewhere before...?



And FWIW I hate HOA toos.

hawkwing wrote:

BYU is no different from Texas Christian without the Honor Code and I wouldn't be a fan or support them without it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting a move to drop the honor code. That's part of the environment that makes BYU what it is. I'm talking strictly the Honor Code office. I went to school for 3 years at BYU and I never knew or currently know where physically it is.



I don't agree that BYU should have an Honor Code office. The whole premise is out of whack. Yes, some of their functions probably are needed and can be transferred to a different department, but having an office that most outsiders see as only a demonstration of a "holier than thou" attitude hurts the university and therefore the Church.



Individuals are required to have an ecclesiastical endorsement whereby they state they will follow the Honor Code. That leader needs to be the main focus whereby individuals adhere.



I don't have a problem with BYU having housing standards. Those are fine, but once again, that should be administered by the student housing department, and not involve the Honor Code office (which frankly, I didn't know it did). Just having something called the Honor Code office should wake people up to what the heck is that all about.



As far as need to modify the Honor Code, I agree with Fido, "I support honor code reform--particularly in the dress and grooming standards. I'd also love to see the enforcement be lenient towards those working to deal with issues and their ecclesiastical leader--having "good standing" and "working through issues to good standing" being the same positive outcome."



I disagree with his take on HOA's, because I have personal experience where some have hired personnel with the sole responsibility to "catch" infractions, although extremely minor because that is what their job was. They don't catch any and they don't have a job. That is NEVER going to create a efficient scenario that benefits everyone. Yes, HOA's can keep neighborhoods pristine, but you had better believe it that they don't necessarily make market values go up. I've talked to to many people who when searching for a home have checked out how Nazi-like or not the HOA is or isn't and regardless of how great the area looked, they weren't interested in having someone looking over their shoulder to the degree that some do. I'm not for abolishing HOA's, but it was just part of the analogy. The premise of my thought is that often, "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." That baby, is a fact of human nature. My only intention of using the HOA example is to depict situations where authority is often abused and that scripture in D&C says it all. Where the initial intention was good, but the outcome sometimes is not.

byufan4ever wrote:

I went to the sticter Ricks College/BYU-I and loved it and never had a run in with the honor code there. I also never felt that there were people waiting to turn me in if I made a mistake.



It's definitely possible that the BYU Provo HCO storries I've heard are either made up or embellished. But I do not like what I've heard.



I've said this before. Let the HONOR Code be "on your HONOR." Let your mistakes be between you, the Lord, and when necessary your Bishop so that you can repent properly. No need for an unHonorable Code Office. Teach people the rules and let them govern themselves. Have I heard that somewhere before...?



And FWIW I hate HOA toos.

Excellent post in my mind.

I have a friend whose son was home from his mission for a grant total of 2 week before he went away to college. In this case it was the U for their ROTC program. There, his roommates drank and smoked weed on a regular basis. They teased him incessantly and he dropped out of school 3 weeks in - transferring to BYU Idaho. I'm interested to hear how this situation would be handled in the "no Honor code office" scenario. Above, I see "address them under the 'student housing office'" What exactly does that mean? Do the employees of the student housing office go to the apartment to verify what's happening? And if they do then what? can they kick those students out of school? Do they go to the Bishop of these students' ward? If so, aren't we really looking at the same "horror stories" as the honor code office, but just housed in a different part of the administration building?

I completely disagree with you EM_Puma. An Honor Code with no Honor Code Office means there is no Honor Code.



If you are going to BYU with every intent to go to the bar and drink every weekend you should be removed from BYU. That doesn't happen without an Honor Code.

I want a nice spiritual environment where my kids can go to school. I don't want a secret police organization to enforce obedience.

hawkwing wrote:

I completely disagree with you EM_Puma. An Honor Code with no Honor Code Office means there is no Honor Code.



If you are going to BYU with every intent to go to the bar and drink every weekend you should be removed from BYU. That doesn't happen without an Honor Code.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I'm a "teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves" kind of guy. As I said, I didn't have any problem with the Honor Code and I agree with having it, except for the facial hair issue, which I think is bizarre as so many former leaders of the Church had facial hair and then there was a subsequent period of time and they didn't and then it became taboo? That make no sense at all. Thats a man-made guideline that can change without any issue just as many of the changes we've seen in the Church lately have changed policy. I understand that there was a time when the long hair and facial hair was associated with social unrest of the 60's and 70's and that spawned a lot of the grooming standards, but I think we're beyond that now and they can be eased up a bit.



When I worked for the Church, I one day saw the BYU Honor Code written out in detail and it noted that students were not allowed to go into places that served alcohol. Well that eliminates most of your dining establishments these days so I wrote President Samuelson (actually I sent him an inter-office note) telling him that such a rule was really out-of-bounds because that would mean that taking your family to Chili's or Olive Garden would technically put any of them that were attending BYU in breach of the Honor Code.



He never responded to me, but I saw a few years later that the wording had changed and that part had been removed. I can't say that my letter was the exact catalyst, but I'm sure when he read the old wording he made the same connection that I had that it was not worded very well.

Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.



The HCO has good intentions, but like many things it carries unintended consequences. Couple of examples, which I may have shared already (apologies).



First, when the Jews returned to Israel after being in Babylon they were worried that they would fall into wickedness and lose God's protection once again. To ensure this didn't happen they set up a set "rules". Keeping the Sabath day holy became don't take a certain number of steps, don't cook, etc. By keeping these standards, the Jews reasoned they then would never risk breaking the commandments.



Over time, the standards became the focus. What were guidelines to ensure obedience with the law became the law. And, of course, a policing body grew -- let's ensure the people keep the rules so that we don't run the risk of being carted off to Babylon again. All good intentions. They completely missed the mark.



I have made no secret that I feel BYU, the HCO, and LDS culture misses the mark. We've become wrapped up in standards, rules, procedures and processes. I love the direction Nelson is taking the church. We were headed the wrong way. The HC and the HCO were born out of good intentions, but they've warped into something different.



Second example. While in the MTC I remember walking to the temple one morning and seeing the white vans circling the MTC. I asked my companion why they were there. He grew up in Provo. He told me they were there to make sure missionaries didn't leave the MTC and to make sure missionaries didn't break the rules. I laughed. I thought he was joking.



A week later, my companion's mom dropped some stuff off on the lawn by the temple. My companion went to go get it (why pay the postage when your mom lives up the street). His mom happened to be leaving just as we got there. As my companion went to get the package this white van appears out of no where. Out pops this 20 something screaming and yelling at my companion about breaking the rules and yelling at his mom about breaking the rules. My companion defended his mom. A fight nearly broke out. Lots of "wrong" on all sides, but I walked away thinking, "Those vans really are there circling around making sure we're in line." Missionaries are volunteers. Missionaries pay to be in the MTC, yet the church employs security vans to ensure the consenting adults stay in line and don't leave. It's like prison.



The HC and the HCO are archaic. It feeds a holier-than-thou culture, reinforces focus on rules and standards as opposed to love and charity, and misses the mark.

Doesn't the MTC story just illustrate why the "let them govern themselves" plan isn't going to work? I mean if you can't trust a missionary and his/her mom to keep the rules in the first couple of weeks of their mission who can you trust? There is nothing funnier than those who don't keep the rules but get mad when they get caught--like the rules don't apply to them and how dare someone enforce them. The MTC is no prison--you can leave whenever you want.

So many people obviously believe that "honor" means being able to break the rules as long as you choose to. I believe "honor" means not signing your name to an agreement you have no intention of keeping.

Fido wrote:

Doesn't the MTC story just illustrate why the "let them govern themselves" plan isn't going to work? I mean if you can't trust a missionary and his/her mom to keep the rules in the first couple of weeks of their mission who can you trust? There is nothing funnier than those who don't keep the rules but get mad when they get caught--like the rules don't apply to them and how dare someone enforce them. The MTC is no prison--you can leave whenever you want.

"The MTC is no prison--you can leave whenever you want."



That was his point exactly and I don't want to offend, but I believe you missed it. It is incredible the number of cultural mores that have been developed by members of the Church thinking that they are on the straight and narrow. How in the world can you say that, "let them govern themselves" plan isn't going to work?"



No, it doesn't work that 100% of the time 100% of the people will do exactly as they should, but the premise is to teach the true principles and make agency available and teach the way to find truth and generally speaking, people most often will, and upon understanding truth, they will learn to appropriately govern themselves.



I worked for a number of years in the Missionary Department. I remember as we contemplated allowing missionaries to have access to the internet on their fablets and honestly I thought, no, this is never going to work. Surely missionaries will cross over that line and access stuff they aren't allowed to see. I mean I had seen it time and time again.



I'm paraphrasing because no one was recording what he said in this instance, but Elder Bednar said that if we can't teach them the principles to not abuse the internet, what success are we going to have to help them become successful husbands and fathers. He understood so clearly that yes, there would be those that would stumble and abuse access and bring peril upon themselves, but generally speaking the rules, commandments, guidelines of protection are there, but we can't force individuals to follow them and we never will have success forcing them. It never dawned on me how deep of a concept that is and no matter what I say or explain, I can't take other individuals to that level of understanding. It comes from somewhere else.

You know, I know this topic is controversial, but honestly I do enjoy seeing the varied opinions here. There are a number of those here on Cougar Corner that have been here for years (I just noticed on the right that in November I will have been on here for 10 years) and I've heard your opinions on a lot of things, mainly centered on sports, but your feelings, understandings and depth of knowledge comes out over time and you're a group I value to hear from whether I agree 100% or only to a certain degree.



I really do hate that mother of all harlots other board (kidding of course), but it isn't enjoyable when there are so many people denigrating other's opinions and if I offend anyone as I don't 100% agree, I'm sorry and really I don't intend harm. There are just some things that I feel real deeply about and it's not always easy to see that "like" people haven't concluded the same as myself--but that's what makes this journey so interesting.

hawkwing wrote:

So many people obviously believe that "honor" means being able to break the rules as long as you choose to. I believe "honor" means not signing your name to an agreement you have no intention of keeping.

Right, but where is the honor is being foreced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head?

byufan4ever wrote:

So many people obviously believe that "honor" means being able to break the rules as long as you choose to. I believe "honor" means not signing your name to an agreement you have no intention of keeping.

Right, but where is the honor is being foreced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head?

Like where is the honor in life when you are forced to obey or spend eternity damned?

byufan4ever wrote:

Right, but where is the honor is being foreced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head?

Where is the "forced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head" coming from? A twisted version of what the Honor Code Office is? There is no HCO person assigned to follow you around and ensure you do not violate the code. Most interactions are ensuring recognition of the code and encouragement to adhere to it since the code is the minimum expectation of honorable behavior during the time enrolled at BYU.



It would be nice to step back from the theoretical world where everyone is altruistic and looking to maintain their personal honor above all else. With over 33k students from around the world in one place, it makes sense to define the standard of honorable behavior.