Reform the Code

https://www.reddit.com/r/byu/comments/b9h1oc/walkout_next_friday_to_reform_the_honor_code/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x



I saw this on Reddit so take it for what you want. I don't know how widespread this will be, but apparently Instagram is going crazy with HC stories (I'm not on Instagram so can't confirm that) and there are some students trying to organize a walkout or sit-in.


Reform the Code.PNG

Will this be effective? Would you participate in this if you are/were a current student?

I'm sure that if this had happened 25 years ago when I was still at school I'd go by just to "heckle the whiners"

While there are certainly aspects of the Honor Code enforcement that need to be fixed I get the impression that most of the stories online are exaggerated, 2nd hand (or 3rd or 4th), or just incorrect in many details. We also don't have the other side of the story either, and never will.

hawkwing wrote:

While there are certainly aspects of the Honor Code enforcement that need to be fixed I get the impression that most of the stories online are exaggerated, 2nd hand (or 3rd or 4th), or just incorrect in many details. We also don't have the other side of the story either, and never will.

I'm pretty sure you remember the story I've told before, which is absolutely true and horribly awful all by itself.

If BYU is going to enforce the Honor Code in any fashion, it needs to be done independently of the Ecclesiastical Endorsement process. Otherwise Bishops are going to get sued for violating confidentiality or getting them kicked out of school, and on the other side, having your Bishop involved in enforcement is going to make students less inclined to go to their Bishop to work things out spiritually.



That said, BYU needs some enforcement mechanism if they keep the Honor Code. I did grad school at Baylor, which also has an Honor Code, but they don't enforce it off of campus, and the on-campus enforcement is limited to housing (e.g., drink on campus, you can't live on campus) and academic honesty. The Honor Code at Baylor is an absolute joke, and everyone in the state of Texas knows it.



How BYU enforces the Code does need reform, however.

The fact that even a single member of the Honor Code Office was using BYU Police to illegally collect information on students for potential HC violations is enough for the entire office to be shut down.



Perhaps it can be reconstituted in some other form. But if I were a student at BYU (I was and never had one interaction with the HCO), I would be demanding a complete overhaul of that office. From top to bottom, everyone should be replaced - should it return.

SpiffCoug wrote:

The fact that even a single member of the Honor Code Office was using BYU Police to illegally collect information on students for potential HC violations is enough for the entire office to be shut down.



Perhaps it can be reconstituted in some other form. But if I were a student at BYU (I was and never had one interaction with the HCO), I would be demanding a complete overhaul of that office. From top to bottom, everyone should be replaced - should it return.

Really? You'd be fine losing your job if one and only one of your coworkers was doing something wrong with theirs?

https://twitter.com/BYU/status/1116015114224726016



I read the link. I think the Honor Code Office has an important role in the University. I think they need/needed all the rebuke in the world for the way the BYU police were operating and reforms can and should be made to make sure those things never happen again.



At the end of the day, if a BYU student breaks a major rule of the Honor Code I see nothing wrong with them having to answer for that. In the majority of cases that should lead to them making changes and falling in line with the regulations of the school. Those who do not wish to live the Honor Code can then be allowed to attend another school that is more in-line with their beliefs.

What I don't like is the snitching and how it was/is somewhat encouraged to happen. IMO the HONOR code should be "on your HONOR" and between you, God, and for major sins, your bishop. You know what I do when my kids tattle on each other? They both get the same consequence (unless they were going to harm themselves or someone else). I went to Ricks College / BYU-I so I have no problems with strict rules, but I hate hate hate students snitching on each other!

ABYUFAN wrote:

The fact that even a single member of the Honor Code Office was using BYU Police to illegally collect information on students for potential HC violations is enough for the entire office to be shut down.



Perhaps it can be reconstituted in some other form. But if I were a student at BYU (I was and never had one interaction with the HCO), I would be demanding a complete overhaul of that office. From top to bottom, everyone should be replaced - should it return.

Really? You'd be fine losing your job if one and only one of your coworkers was doing something wrong with theirs?

Yes. I think they should all lose their jobs within the HCO. I think an outside body should investigate (which, I believe they are) to see who else was involved. If they determine those individuals should also lose their jobs at the university.



Those cleared can be retained by the university but in a different capacity and one not related to the Honor Code.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Those cleared can be retained by the university but in a different capacity and one not related to the Honor Code.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

snoscythe wrote:

Those cleared can be retained by the university but in a different capacity and one not related to the Honor Code.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

Well except for maybe your comment here. I've been in a company where a division or office was deemed no longer necessary and they retained most of the employees by re-assigning them to other divisions/offices/jobs. The particular work of that office was no longer needed but the employees were still valued.



But no it's more fun to say what you did without thinking.

byufan4ever wrote:

SpiffCoug wrote:
Those cleared can be retained by the university but in a different capacity and one not related to the Honor Code.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

Well except for maybe your comment here. I've been in a company where a division or office was deemed no longer necessary and they retained most of the employees by re-assigning them to other divisions/offices/jobs. The particular work of that office was no longer needed but the employees were still valued.



But no it's more fun to say what you did without thinking.

#1 -- Don't mistake a short statement for one made without thinking. I can just as easily assume that you made your final comment without thinking. If you're worried about "name-calling", your post, although longer, is more ad hominem than anything in my terse observation that apparently got your hackles up.



#2 -- Just because someone offers up an example of a company doing something in the past doesn't make it right or smart.



#3 -- What Spiff discussed is a different situation entirely. If there is no longer an enforcement or Honor Code Office and we're eliminating the entire department, I can see that, but that's not what is being talked about here. The situation being proposed here--keeping a department but whitewashing all staff even those cleared, and then going out and re-staffing that department from scratch--is stupidity. To apply your words to this situation, one might observe that "the work of that office is still needed but the [cleared] employees are not valued".



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/leadership-lab/got-a-problem-employee-dont-whitewash/article25024490/



#4 -- Let's not forget one little detail here: the employee that was misbehaving was not even an employee in the Honor Code Office. It was an employee in a completely separate department. Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the HCO knew that the police officer was illegally accessing law enforcement databases for non-law-enforcement uses. That makes the suggestion of whitewashing the HCO even dumber--whitewash a department for the acts of an employee in a completely different department? A suggestion of whitewashing the police department would be a dumb suggestion as well, but less dumb than suggesting we whitewash an entirely separate department for police misbehavior.



You can hold your opinion based on your experiences, and I'll stick to mine based on my experiences.

I think the HCO needs a top to bottom evaluation, including what to include in the Code and how to enforce violations. In my perfect world I’d get the Bishops out of yanking ecclesiastical endorsements and let them focus exclusively on the student’s moral worthiness and, where needed, helping that student repent and come closer to Christ. I’d get rid of most clothing and hair rules. Teach the students modesty and respect and let them govern themselves.Rules like hair can’t be over a certain length perversely teaches the student they are not to be trusted in such matters and don’t allow them to choose wisely. I think BYU is scared what the students would do. I think we can trust them to dress well. Disconnect the cops from the HCO except for matters of violence. Expel for cheating and violence but for others work with the student. Standardize all of this between the schools. Attack the culture of snitchery (is that a word?). Build a culture of teaching correct principles. This is far too brief and I’m sure I’ve left lots out. But that’d be my start.

I like a lot of what Boise says above, but I'd keep ecclesiastical endorsements, but only have students lose them for refusing to repent, not for sinning.



I'm okay with kids who make mistakes and do their best to change for the better. I'm not okay with going to BYU while living in open rebellion and defiance to God and his teachings.

My body has this nasty habit of growing hair. To ensure I didn't come across as a hippie and someone think that I might be doing something bad, the church/BYU required I shave. It's a rule based solely on the outer appearance of righteousness. It's a rule designed to make people look a certain way, to comply with a governing body's prejudice of how a "righteous" person should look. It's essentially praying on a street corner to be seen. It's hypocritical.



The HC is the modern-day version of the mosaic law. It produces and encourages a culture of stoning and judgement, not charity and mercy.



Read the comments on Twitter and Instagram around this movement. It's disgusting. It's stone throwing. A woman engages in sex (clear violation of the HC), gets pregnant, and leaves the school because she doesn't want to have to go through the shame and public damnation of the HC. That last part is what is messed up with the HC and the LDS culture. No forgiveness. No support. She's pregnant from a BYU basketball player and feels her only way out is to abandon her education. Meanwhile, he goes scot free. We're supposed to be better than this.



Makes me sick and quite honestly question my affiliation with the church.

Davies was suspended for a year, no?

Mars wrote:

I like a lot of what Boise says above, but I'd keep ecclesiastical endorsements, but only have students lose them for refusing to repent, not for sinning.



I'm okay with kids who make mistakes and do their best to change for the better. I'm not okay with going to BYU while living in open rebellion and defiance to God and his teachings.

I share your concern. I am not supportive of the openly rebellious either. I

That said, I worry that involving the Bishop in admissions matters will simply deter persons from talking to the Bishop in the first instance.

Knew plenty of people that made mistakes while at BYU and didn't talk to their bishops about them because they didn't want to risk losing their endorsement. I knew a lot of students that would confess things to their home bishops while home for the summer instead of their BYU bishops for this same reason.



I've had several discussions with couples now that I am older about how they were a bit "handsy" while dating but didn't go to their bishops despite the guilt because they didn't want to risk losing their endorsement or getting married.



It's a fear based process. Not a love based process.



I agree, students that have no intention of comporting themselves according to the commandments shouldn't be at BYU, but what we have now is not good.



Make the HC the same as the temple recommend standards and get bishops out of the endorsement game.

And get Bishops out of the Temple recommend business too?



I mean, I know couples that have lied about about keeping the law of chastity, word of wisdom, sustaining the prophet, because they were afraid of losing their recommends and not being able to get married in the temple.