WCC a mistake?

PK being PK. It was interesting yesterday watching Dave Rose's press conference announcing his retirement. He told the media to announce who they were, who they represented, and how many years they have been involved in their current responsibilities. All answered the first request, most answered the second, no one made comment on the third.



In this portion of the press conference, Dave Rose took several jabs at the media. Playful, but it was evident that while he was too nice of a guy to really say what he feels about them, it was obvious that he wasn't going to miss them.



A major burr under Rose's saddle has been PK (Patrick Kinahan), as he's known on the radio. But actually he's pretty much a burr under everyone's saddle. Dave addressed him as Patrick, which I didn't recall anyone ever calling him in a media situation. PK was respectful and showed that he can control his tendency to be rude and a bit abrasive.



Now, today he offers up his weekly article on KSL on something BYU entitled, "Patrick Kinahan: Odd timing for Rose's departure from BYU". https://www.ksl.com/article/46519404/patrick-kinahan-odd-timing-for-roses-departure-from-byu



"Odd"? What? He goes on to insinuate that DR is leaving because of lack of ultimate success (no NCAA tournaments in 4 years, no NIT this year, decline in Marriott Center attendance, etc.). Most of the article was his usual dribble trying to make more of something that it often is. Yet this was the sentence that took me a bit by surprise:



"Without question, Rose leaves BYU as a coaching legend. But the new coach will inherit a program that has been badly damaged by the decision to leave the Mountain West for the WCC to facilitate the football program’s move to independence."



Honestly, I disagree. I'm not convinced that taking the football team independent, which because of Hair Thompson's issues with BYU, resulted in BYU not being allowed to keep our other sports in the MWC, had "badly damaged" BYU. Seriously? He states we're badly damaged because we didn't remain in the MWC? Really? Based on what? Not money. We ended up with both increased profit and exposure. It's not to say everything has been roses (pardon the pun), because it has not, but to state that BYU is badly damaged because we left the MWC is brainless on PK's part. If someone is brainless, they're by definition, "mentally weak, foolish, witless, and stupid." Okay, maybe he's not witless.

I have not seen one single persuasive argument that moving to the WCC has damaged the basketball (or any) program. Gonzaga has shown that a good basketball program in the WCC can thrive on the national level. Twice in the last few years they've received one seed in the NCAA tournament. Historically BYU in the MWC received seeding below where it should have, and in the WCC BYU has been treated fairly by the selection committee.



The only people who contend that BYU is worse off in the WCC are folks that are irrational.

I love the WCC and they've more than treated us fairly. It's been a great fit for most of our sports. However, there is more than one person on here who will argue that the WCC has hurt our ability to get into March Madness for basketball. The WCC in basketball has one juggernaut and a lot of crappy teams (with one or two decent teams) whereas the MWC (at least when we were there) was more well rounded with more decent/good teams and no one behemoth making it easier to get into the NCAA tournament.



I know nothing about this JK guy and I'm not trying to back him up. Just voicing an opinion and one that I'm pretty sure I've heard others echo.

Yeah, we should probably go back to the MWC where we were winning all those conference tournaments and locking in auto-bids each season.

The only negative of moving to the WCC was the drop in production from Rose, IMO.



It's been mentioned several times Rose wasn't happy about the move to the WCC and wanted to stay in the MWC. We have seen a less impassioned Rose since.



If BYU won the games it was supposed to win and appeared in the WCC tourney against Gonzaga we would be dancing. We didn't do that. As I mentioned in another post. We have only been to the WCC finals three times since joining the league.



If we actually played the part of 2nd best team in the conference and beat everyone not named Gonzaga, we'd be dancing and the WCC as a whole would rise. Instead, we faltered. BYU was supposed to raise the conference. We were supposed to add another NCAA tourney team to the conference. We didn't do that. We played down to the competition.

Gunk wrote:

Instead, we faltered. BYU was supposed to raise the conference. We were supposed to add another NCAA tourney team to the conference. We didn't do that. We played down to the competition.

Feels like that. We added a 2nd NCAA team to dance that first season in the WCC and it seemed like things were okay. They we followed with getting upset by some of the lower teams of the conference each season until this year when at least we didn't lose to anyone but the top teams. Yet it was our worst season in a long time.



Still, The MWC had not outpaced the WCC. Honestly, as a fan, I much more enjoyed seeing us play in venues like in Vegas, the Pit, etc. Locations that really didn't look like high school gyms. Yet, as noted, when was the last time the MWC had a team with a #1 seed like we've seen twice with Gonzaga. We get some teams that can perform to the levels that we did in the MWC and we'll go dancing.



It was not a mistake to leave the MWC. Period.

Men's basketball was hurt the most of all the programs that moved to the WCC. The biggest obstacle is Gonzaga nearly always being on top of a 1 bid league. The WCC doesn't have the reputation that the MWC did 10 years ago. Today the amount of "damage" could be debated--I think both BYU and the MWC have slipped in the past decade. I liked Travis Hansen's comments on the radio this morning--you aren't going to win with 12 Travis Hansens (meaning Utah kids). You have to cast a wider net than that which BYU has struggled with in recent years.

Well heck, if DR hadn't drafted the kids, who would UVU have gotten to play on their team? I mean, it's the least we can for for our sister team in the county.

Fido wrote:

The biggest obstacle is Gonzaga nearly always being on top of a 1 bid league.

Define "nearly always."



BYU has been in the WCC 8 seasons. The scenario that you've described has happened 2 times in those 8 seasons. If 25% is "nearly always" then good news for me - I nearly always stick to my diet!

Yep. It is, and was. The MWC hasnt outpaced the WCC because it lost 3 of its top 5 teams (The U, BYU, SDSU and UNM were always in the mix, with TCU sometimes being a factor). That move hurt them, and until recently with Nevada they haven't had a clear number one fill the absolute crater left in basketball.



The WCC stacks heavily towards the top teams in the tournament (it used to be worse) and Gonzaga and Saint Mary's benefitted from that tremendously. We had to completely switch up our recruitment of guards from slow, lumbering, white guys that are pass first (besides Jimmer). We got torched the first couple years by really quick, small teams. Gonzaga has a lot of love now, but they earned that by basically going undefeated (except against BYU!) for the last 5 years, and upsetting people in the tourney while getting lower seeds. BYU was getting better seeds in the MWC with similar wins to Gonzaga.

I don't have much against the WCC but I would rather be in a conference that included all sports. The problem with the WCC is you have one team, Gonzaga, That has become as powerful as anyone in the country. 2 other teams, St. Mary's and until this year BYU, are very competitive and others that once in a while can be competitive.

nuk13 wrote:

2 other teams, St. Mary's and until this year BYU, are very competitive and others that once in a while can be competitive.

BYU tied St. Mary's for second in the WCC this year, and split the series with them - I don't get the "until this year" comment

Brayden Green wrote:

BYU was getting better seeds in the MWC with similar wins to Gonzaga.

Not true.



Not even close.



BYU's highest seed in the NCAA tournament was a 3 seed with a record of 30-4. Gonzaga had a record of 30 - 3 this year. Did they get a 3 seed? No. please remind me of their seed this year, I've forgotten.



Let's look at BYU's seeds while n the MWC and compare them with Gonzaga's seeds those same years in the WCC.



2010 BYU was a 7 seed with a record of 30-6 They had a national ranking of 16 which should have put them at a 4 seed, but instead they were seeded 3 spots lower. same year. Gonzaga was an 8 seed with a record of 27-7. BYU won 3 more games than Gonzaga, and lost one less game, and still were only seeded one spot above them.



In 2009 BYU was 25-8 and got an 8 seed. Gonzaga was 28-6 and got a 4 seed. Think about that. BYU's record in 2010 was better than Gonzaga's 2009 record and Gonzaga was seeded 3 spots better. And with a "similar" record Gonzaga of the WCC was seeded 4 spots higher than MWC's BYU.



in 2008 BYU had a record of 27-7 and was seeded 8 Gonzaga had a record of 25-7 and was seeded 7. WCC got the better seed with a similar record.

The Brayden Green approach to BYU fandom:



https://i.imgur.com/xoQCRiz.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

snoscythe wrote:

The Brayden Green approach to BYU fandom:



https://i.imgur.com/xoQCRiz.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I disagree with Brayden Green on a lot of things, but this seems a little close to a personal attack.



Guess what? It's okay to have different opinions.

ABYUFAN wrote:

The biggest obstacle is Gonzaga nearly always being on top of a 1 bid league.

Define "nearly always."



BYU has been in the WCC 8 seasons. The scenario that you've described has happened 2 times in those 8 seasons. If 25% is "nearly always" then good news for me - I nearly always stick to my diet!

How many times has a team outperformed Gonzaga for 1st in the WCC since BYU joined?

Fido wrote:

Fido wrote:

The biggest obstacle is Gonzaga nearly always being on top of a 1 bid league.

Define "nearly always."



BYU has been in the WCC 8 seasons. The scenario that you've described has happened 2 times in those 8 seasons. If 25% is "nearly always" then good news for me - I nearly always stick to my diet!

How many times has a team outperformed Gonzaga for 1st in the WCC since BYU joined?

What's your point? It's not a "one bid league." If a team plays well enough to make the NCAA tournament it'll get in. Even if it isn't able to beat Gonzaga.



2 times since BYU has joined someone has beaten Gonzaga in the WCC tournament to earn the autobid. So I guess the response to your question is "nearly always"

ABYUFAN wrote:

What's your point? It's not a "one bid league." If a team plays well enough to make the NCAA tournament it'll get in. Even if it isn't able to beat Gonzaga.



2 times since BYU has joined someone has beaten Gonzaga in the WCC tournament to earn the autobid. So I guess the response to your question is "nearly always"

Gonzaga nearly always wins the auto bid. In the past 4 years the WCC has put 1 team in the tournament

( 2016,2018) as much as they have put 2 in (2017,2019). Early on in BYU's membership the conference had 3 teams in the tournament (2012,2014). That's why I'm saying the standing of the team has taken a hit in the WCC. In a conference where if you play good enough you can get in like you said, the conference has been represented 6 times in the past 4 years by 2 different teams (Gonzaga, St. Mary's). If you go all the way back to when BYU joined the league, the conference had 3 teams in the tournament twice--but not since 2014. If you don't call that slippage I don't know what is.

Fido wrote:

What's your point? It's not a "one bid league." If a team plays well enough to make the NCAA tournament it'll get in. Even if it isn't able to beat Gonzaga.



2 times since BYU has joined someone has beaten Gonzaga in the WCC tournament to earn the autobid. So I guess the response to your question is "nearly always"

Gonzaga nearly always wins the auto bid. In the past 4 years the WCC has put 1 team in the tournament

( 2016,2018) as much as they have put 2 in (2017,2019). Early on in BYU's membership the conference had 3 teams in the tournament (2012,2014). That's why I'm saying the standing of the team has taken a hit in the WCC. In a conference where if you play good enough you can get in like you said, the conference has been represented 6 times in the past 4 years by 2 different teams (Gonzaga, St. Mary's). If you go all the way back to when BYU joined the league, the conference had 3 teams in the tournament twice--but not since 2014. If you don't call that slippage I don't know what is.

So the only slippage was by BYU, not the WCC.



Sounds like we need a good coach, who can recruit well, teach well in practice, coach well in games, and keep his players from leaving early.

Well, that's not true, Mars. If BYU hadn't moved to the WCC, it wouldn't have lost to Portland, Pepperdine, LMU, San Diego, and all those 200-something ranked teams. ;) :lol: