Archived Topic

The reason for the smell

by EM_Puma · 3/13/2019

Advertisement
E
EM_Puma
I know I'm not alone in this experience when you've come across a foul smell in your home, or elsewhere and on the surface the source of the odor is unknown and even unexpected. Often such experiences are related to your refrigerator and you soon have to clean it out until ultimately you find the culprit and you have the solution to your problem.



Good ol Patrick Kinahan wrote an article for KSL today, "Patrick Kinahan: Lack of talent hinders BYU basketball"

https://www.ksl.com/article/46510165/patrick-kinahan-lack-of-talent-hinders-byu-basketball



His final summation is: "The current four-year dry spell has many BYU fans clamoring for significant changes, including and up to overhauling the coaching staff. But the real issue is lack of talent on the roster as opposed to the coaching.



BYU can point to several reasons for the lack of talent over the last four years. They include losing multiple players before their eligibility expired and incoming players falling far short of overhyped expectations.



Without the ability to successfully recruit the top high school talent, BYU has to rely on internal development to compete for NCAA Tournament berths. During Rose’s best seasons, role players have flourished in more prominent roles as they matured in the system
."



ESPN 960's Benjamin Criddle had former BYU great, Chris Miles, on his program yesterday giving his shot at a postmortem of what has happened to BYU. He and others in this area have expressed an opinion that it isn't Dave Rose that is the problem, but it does have to do with talent. BYU had not historically had this continual leakage of the top talent leaving early (Mika, Bryant, etc.) as it has in the last few years and in light of the challenge it it so recruit to BYU, that fact is having an significant negative impact on BYU. He said we weren't like a Kentucky or Duke that can deal with early departures because they have someone equally good coming in the door. Gonzaga has shared in some of the experience of players leaving the program early, but they have had the ability to back-fill the position.



He also sees a different viewpoint of players in their decline from really being part of a team. He pointed out how many less games would BYU have won if he, Jimmer, Kyle, and many others had not spent their full careers at BYU, as what was more the tradition, and left early.



Miles expressed some hope, but was honest too about how today's players are much more self-centered on what opportunities they have related to playing time (Chapman, Dastrup, Toolson, Carlino, etc. (there have been so many)) and have more options (transfer portal). The concept of being part of a team is still a great thought in their minds, but almost somewhat passé in regards to reality. PK is correct, there is a lack of talent because BYU has absolutely not succeeded in the process of back-filling. In addition, with the development of international leagues that now provide sufficient remuneration to support a very attractive lifestyle, and the fact that a lot of BYU players get married during their tenure as a player and need to support a family, it's not a wonder that they no longer see maintaining the 4-year career simply for the "good of the team"--and sadly us fans.



So, unlike clearing out my refrigerator and finding exactly what was causing the significant odor, it's not so simple to find a solution to what is stinking up BYU men's basketball. It obvious that it's probably not as simple as finding just one putrid culprit.



I have to hand it to Rose to continue on. He and I are only a few days apart in age. If I had made the same level of income that he has the last 20 years, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd leave this developing problem to someone younger than still fighting to have to adapt to the additional challenges that are changing this BYU program. I so wish the solution was as easy as finding a single piece of rotten food in the bottom of my refrigerator--but I just don't think it is.
B
byufan4ever
I wouldn't call it lack of talent. These past 3 years have been arguably the most talent with the most potential that we've ever had at BYU. There was a discussion a year or two ago here about how we had like 6 ESPN Top 100 players on our team at the same time. Mika was the #3 C in the nation coming out of high school!



And I don't buy into the "Rose should have recruited outside of Provo." (I'm not saying the OP said this but I've heard this many times from many fans) BS. If Rose had not recruited 3/4 star HS players right on his doorstop there would have been mass hysteria from the fans. Look at my other post on the Rose thread. You can't convince me that the players on this team are not as talented as some of those past teams that made the NCAA tournament. Not only are our starters on par with prevous teams, but I've been told countless times that this is the deepest bench that we've ever had.



We don't have a recruiting and talent problem. We have a coaching problem. Players aren't reaching their potential. Sometimes that's on the players, but when it's several players over several years then it's on the coach. We have a mentality issue. We made ONE three pointer in our last game? Seriously, what is up with that? What are we doing on offense? Rarely do we scheme for a specific opponent. Very rarely do we double team or press, even for short periods. There is zero team chemistry right now.
E
EM_Puma
I would have said I would have agree with you byufan4ever before these last few weeks and listening to people who have been much closer to the sport than myself. It looked to me like the talent was there, but that's kind of my analogy to finding out what specifically stinks and it doesn't seem like people are in agreement and that makes is an even more difficult challenge.
B
byufan4ever
But even if it is lack of talent that still come back to the head coach. He is responsible for getting the talent here. He is the one responsible for not convincing talented players with elgibility left to stay rather than go to the low ranks of professional play.
Y
YNot
1-for-17 from the three-point-line and 25% field goal shooting for most of the game against USD. That's not coaching.



Haws, Emery, and Seljaas were a combined 4-24 from the field, 1-11 from the three, and 7-12 from the free-throw line.
Advertisement
B
byufan4ever
When one player is off then that is not coaching. When the ENTIRE team is off, that is coaching.
Y
YNot
byufan4ever wrote:
We don't have a recruiting and talent problem. We have a coaching problem. Players aren't reaching their potential. Sometimes that's on the players, but when it's several players over several years then it's on the coach. We have a mentality issue. We made ONE three pointer in our last game? Seriously, what is up with that? What are we doing on offense? Rarely do we scheme for a specific opponent. Very rarely do we double team or press, even for short periods. There is zero team chemistry right now.


Miles' point is that the recent players that develop and start to reach their potential leave the system early - which hasn't really happened in the past. Jimmer, Jackson Emery, Tyler Haws, Brandon Davies, and KC all stayed through their senior seasons. As did their supporting cast - Abuou, Hartsock, Miles, Winder, Austin, etc.



As has been pointed out in numerous other threads, what would this team look like with Elijah Bryant on the court? Or Erik Mika? Or both?!!



Instead, we've replaced Mika (20.3 points, 9 rebounds as a sophomore) with Worthington, Nixon, and Baxter (11 points, 8 rebounds combined).



We've replaced Bryant (18 points, 6 rebounds, 2.5 assists last year) with Harding and Emery (combined 12 points, 4.6 rebounds and 2.9 assists). Or, arguably Cannon and Harding are the primary beneficiaries with Bryant not on the roster, because Emery would have still logged plenty of minutes (9.6 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 2.6 assists per game combined between Cannon and Harding).
B
byufan4ever
YNot wrote:

We don't have a recruiting and talent problem. We have a coaching problem. Players aren't reaching their potential. Sometimes that's on the players, but when it's several players over several years then it's on the coach. We have a mentality issue. We made ONE three pointer in our last game? Seriously, what is up with that? What are we doing on offense? Rarely do we scheme for a specific opponent. Very rarely do we double team or press, even for short periods. There is zero team chemistry right now.


Miles' point is that the recent players that develop and start to reach their potential leave the system early - which hasn't really happened in the past. Jimmer, Jackson Emery, Tyler Haws, Brandon Davies, and KC all stayed through their senior seasons. As did their supporting cast - Abuou, Hartsock, Miles, Winder, Austin, etc.



As has been pointed out in numerous other threads, what would this team look like with Elijah Bryant on the court? Or Erik Mika? Or both?!!



Instead, we've replaced Mika (20.3 points, 9 rebounds as a sophomore) with Worthington, Nixon, and Baxter (11 points, 8 rebounds combined).



We've replaced Bryant (18 points, 6 rebounds, 2.5 assists last year) with Harding and Emery (combined 12 points, 4.6 rebounds and 2.9 assists). Or, arguably Cannon and Harding are the primary beneficiaries with Bryant not on the roster, because Emery would have still logged plenty of minutes (9.6 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 2.6 assists per game combined between Cannon and Harding).


And who's fault is that? surely not the coach.... :skeptic:
N
nuk13
I don't think it's all talent although we have lost top players that would definitely increase our talent. I again refer to Utah State. We beat them 95 to 80 on 12/5/18. We'd be hard pressed to get within 20 points of them now. Somewhere this season we've traded places. The MWC coach of the year's office is at Utah State and with good reason. Oh, and 2 or 3 of their top players are returned missionaries including Sam Merrill the MWC player of the year.



This would have been a good year to take the conference. Unranked St. Mary's just upset no.1 Gonzaga 60 to 47. I believe we could have done that. It's sad that we missed a great opportunity.
S
snoscythe
Oh, so the lack of talent is the reason?



Who is responsible for getting talent here?



https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*xSMg-idcLdEUuOGECW5Nww.gif" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
Advertisement
S
SpiffCoug
http://whiskymoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fish.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
G
Gunk
Rose is the coach. It's his job to recruit and develop players.



One or two "selfish" players leaving is one thing, 2-3 players a year leaving is another. It's not just leaving to go pro in Europe or Israel (Bryant), players are transferring out of the program. Hardnett, doesn't want to stick around. The season ends and the next day he's gone.



If Rose and the team were so amazing, we wouldn't see an exodus every year.



I agree Mika and Bryant left too early, but there wasn't a reason good enough for them to stick around.



In an article this week Cleveland said he believed Mika and Bryant got sold a bill of goods on how good they were by agents. They were eager to make money and agents capitalized on it. They weren't eager to stick around and play for Rose.
I
imuakahuku
I think the decline started when Dave Rice left. Our offense became more haphazard and our defense just completely disappeared.
E
EM_Puma
snoscythe wrote:

Oh, so the lack of talent is the reason?



Who is responsible for getting talent here?



https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*xSMg-idcLdEUuOGECW5Nww.gif" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Lack of talent because key individuals left. Seriously, I don't believe Dave had the ability in any of those specific instances over the last five years to change their minds.



Criddle asked Cleveland this week what he'd do to try to persuade Childs to stay and I don't think he came up with anything startling that Rose hasn't already told YC. But...this is where I am questionable of DR's ability and wonder if his heart isn't in it enough to get that job done. A hungrier coach might be better at convincing a player. I don't know that answer for sure, but something is not working and I can smell it.
M
Mars
SpiffCoug wrote:

http://whiskymoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fish.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Dr. Horrible?
Advertisement
S
snoscythe
EM_Puma wrote:


Oh, so the lack of talent is the reason?



Who is responsible for getting talent here?



https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*xSMg-idcLdEUuOGECW5Nww.gif" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Lack of talent because key individuals left. Seriously, I don't believe Dave had the ability in any of those specific instances over the last five years to change their minds.



Criddle asked Cleveland this week what he'd do to try to persuade Childs to stay and I don't think he came up with anything startling that Rose hasn't already told YC. But...this is where I am questionable of DR's ability and wonder if his heart isn't in it enough to get that job done. A hungrier coach might be better at convincing a player. I don't know that answer for sure, but something is not working and I can smell it.


It's too bad Dave Rose doesn't have the resume to back up the persuasive statement of "I can make you better and NBA-ready with one more year."



Again, the issue goes back to Rose -- he hasn't shown any of these kids that they are better suited to develop one more year under his tutelage.
G
Gunk
An NCAA tourney run would boost Child's visibility and interest.



Rose can't even offer that with reasonable certainty.



Rose had a stretch there where he could. Where he could tell a player, stick around another year and we might get to the Sweet 16, which will increase your draft prospects.



Seriously, what NBA team is going to take a player that couldn't even get their team to the NCAA tournament? If Child's wants a shot at the NBA, he has to get to the tourney.
E
EM_Puma
Gunk wrote:

An NCAA tourney run would boost Child's visibility and interest.



Rose can't even offer that with reasonable certainty.



Rose had a stretch there where he could. Where he could tell a player, stick around another year and we might get to the Sweet 16, which will increase your draft prospects.



Seriously, what NBA team is going to take a player that couldn't even get their team to the NCAA tournament? If Child's wants a shot at the NBA, he has to get to the tourney.


I'd really be shocked, and of course that is always possible, if Childs is told by some NBA team they would take him. Just not going to happen. I've heard too many people opine as such. They don't know of course, but I believe the most tell tale fact was how he performed against legitimate talent when they played Gonzaga twice. I don't know if he can get there. He's improved each year at BYU, so one more year won't hurt him, and if he really does want to play in the NBA, probably his best option.



Totally on my own selfish level, I'd just love to see him come back and I really don't believe he'd ever regret it.
G
Gunk
EM_Puma wrote:


An NCAA tourney run would boost Child's visibility and interest.



Rose can't even offer that with reasonable certainty.



Rose had a stretch there where he could. Where he could tell a player, stick around another year and we might get to the Sweet 16, which will increase your draft prospects.



Seriously, what NBA team is going to take a player that couldn't even get their team to the NCAA tournament? If Child's wants a shot at the NBA, he has to get to the tourney.


I'd really be shocked, and of course that is always possible, if Childs is told by some NBA team they would take him. Just not going to happen. I've heard too many people opine as such. They don't know of course, but I believe the most tell tale fact was how he performed against legitimate talent when they played Gonzaga twice. I don't know if he can get there. He's improved each year at BYU, so one more year won't hurt him, and if he really does want to play in the NBA, probably his best option.



Totally on my own selfish level, I'd just love to see him come back and I really don't believe he'd ever regret it.

What will happen is some agent will show up and tell Childs he has NBA talent. Childs will listen. The agent will make a few phone calls and get Childs a few workout sessions with some teams. That will get Childs excited.



Meanwhile the agent will work on some easy deal with a Euro team.



The draft will come and go and Childs will be on the outside looking in. The agent will then come in and say, don't worry I got you a gig playing for a team in Spain; play hard in Spain and maybe you can convince an NBA team to hire you. Off to Spain Childs will go where he'll have no visibility whatsoever. Gone and forgotten.



For players like Childs, it's a volume game for the agents. They don't make much money off the deals. Putting in a ton of work to try and get a player like Childs into the NBA doesn't scale. So, they get a bunch of players and put in the least amount of effort as possible.



These agents wine and dine NBA scouts. It's a business. The scouts know this. Agents call in some "favors," the scouts are cool with it as it makes their job easier, and the agents then continue to wine and dine the scouts.



Look what was going on with shoe companies and recruiters. If anyone thinks the world of agents and scouts is any cleaner, they're sorely mistaken. An agent is out to make money. That's it.
G
Guest
I think Yoeli is smart enough to know that he has no chance at the NBA. I don't think he even has a very secure shot at the Euro league. Maybe one of the lower European leagues.
Page 1 of 2
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.