The Case Against Coach Rose

His time is up, IMHO:



Over the last four seasons:

15 players have either transferred or quit the team

2 players skipped their senior season to play pro basketball in Italy/Israel

Only 4 players have graduated AFTER playing 4 years at BYU

0 NCAA Tourneys

0 Conference Championships

0 Weeks in the Top 25

I analze trends for a living. I told you guys about two seasons ago that Rose was already trending in the wrong direction but I got laughed at and told that Rose should be able to retire on his own terms.

Was thinking about this the other day. My theory is Rose wasn't happy about moving to the WCC and has basically been on cruise control.



We move to a "lesser" conference and get more talent, but perform worse?

byufan4ever wrote:

I analze trends for a living. I told you guys about two seasons ago that Rose was already trending in the wrong direction but I got laughed at and told that Rose should be able to retire on his own terms.

Hey, man -- I may have arrived later, but I'm here now, right?



Matt 20:9-10



;)

All of the problems with BYU football and basketball start with Tom Holmoe - why isn't he on the hot seat??? He's the one who brought in Kalani Sitake as head football coach, went independent with the football program and threw the rest of athletics into the WCC. Rose's time was up years ago as he is simply doing bare minimum as HC and is on cruise control until retirement - I think the players know and sense that too and aren't too thrilled about it. But if you want to blame someone for what ails BYU sports, look no further than Tom Holmoe.

Can we dump Holmoe, Sitake, and Rose all together at once? That would be fun.

Holmoe does need to go.

Gunk wrote:

Holmoe does need to go.

I have not seen one single persuasive argument that leads me to that conclusion. I'm not saying that those calling for Holmoe's head are wrong, I'm just saying that I've seen nothing to lead me to the same conclusion.



P.S. I'm also on the Sitake will not get this turned around and will be gone next year, and Rose will be asked to retire sooner rather than later bandwagon.

Rose had a great coaches show and handled himself very well. I'm sure he must be feeling all kinds of pressure right now, both internally and externally. It would be a very difficult situation to be in. I wish him the best.

DaveRose-OneTaughtMe1.jpg

ABYUFAN wrote:

Holmoe does need to go.

I have not seen one single persuasive argument that leads me to that conclusion. I'm not saying that those calling for Holmoe's head are wrong, I'm just saying that I've seen nothing to lead me to the same conclusion.



P.S. I'm also on the Sitake will not get this turned around and will be gone next year, and Rose will be asked to retire sooner rather than later bandwagon.

I manage a team at work. If someone on my team isn't performing well, my goals suffer and the company's goals/performance suffers. I'm held accountable for my team's performance. Consequently, if someone is struggling on my team I take measures to get them on the right track or let them go and find someone that can perform.



You can tell if I am doing my job by the performance of my team.



The performance of football and basketball is slipping. You can judge how well Holmoe is doing his job by the performance of his team.



Has football gotten better? Nope.



Has basketball gotten better? Nope.



Has there been a visble increase in performance that would indicate Rose is now delivering better results? Nope. The opposite, actually.



Holmoe isn't doing his job. He isn't holding his team accountable and isn't taking the measures to ensure BYU is performing where it should be. If he was, we'd see better results, not worse.

Gunk wrote:

Gunk wrote:

Holmoe does need to go.

I have not seen one single persuasive argument that leads me to that conclusion. I'm not saying that those calling for Holmoe's head are wrong, I'm just saying that I've seen nothing to lead me to the same conclusion.



P.S. I'm also on the Sitake will not get this turned around and will be gone next year, and Rose will be asked to retire sooner rather than later bandwagon.

I manage a team at work. If someone on my team isn't performing well, my goals suffer and the company's goals/performance suffers. I'm held accountable for my team's performance. Consequently, if someone is struggling on my team I take measures to get them on the right track or let them go and find someone that can perform.



You can tell if I am doing my job by the performance of my team.



The performance of football and basketball is slipping. You can judge how well Holmoe is doing his job by the performance of his team.



Has football gotten better? Nope.



Has basketball gotten better? Nope.



Has there been a visble increase in performance that would indicate Rose is now delivering better results? Nope. The opposite, actually.



Holmoe isn't doing his job. He isn't holding his team accountable and isn't taking the measures to ensure BYU is performing where it should be. If he was, we'd see better results, not worse.

And yet never in the history of the school has BYU athletics as a whole been doing better. Something needs to be done about the "money" programs, yes. And if nothing is done in the next few years, then yes I will agree with you that the problem lies with Holmoe. But her hired as a football coach the person that a majority of the fans would have hired. That person may or not be the tight fit. Everyone was excited that Detmer was on the staff - until we were all mad as hell that he was on the staff. So he was let go early. Grimes was a very bold, but well reasoned move. He may or may not work out, - right now it might work. If there is no improvement next year then the whole shooting match needs to go. But there are very good arguments for not being too quick to blow up the whole thing.

ABYUFAN wrote:

ABYUFAN wrote:

Holmoe does need to go.

I have not seen one single persuasive argument that leads me to that conclusion. I'm not saying that those calling for Holmoe's head are wrong, I'm just saying that I've seen nothing to lead me to the same conclusion.



P.S. I'm also on the Sitake will not get this turned around and will be gone next year, and Rose will be asked to retire sooner rather than later bandwagon.

I manage a team at work. If someone on my team isn't performing well, my goals suffer and the company's goals/performance suffers. I'm held accountable for my team's performance. Consequently, if someone is struggling on my team I take measures to get them on the right track or let them go and find someone that can perform.



You can tell if I am doing my job by the performance of my team.



The performance of football and basketball is slipping. You can judge how well Holmoe is doing his job by the performance of his team.



Has football gotten better? Nope.



Has basketball gotten better? Nope.



Has there been a visble increase in performance that would indicate Rose is now delivering better results? Nope. The opposite, actually.



Holmoe isn't doing his job. He isn't holding his team accountable and isn't taking the measures to ensure BYU is performing where it should be. If he was, we'd see better results, not worse.

And yet never in the history of the school has BYU athletics as a whole been doing better. Something needs to be done about the "money" programs, yes. And if nothing is done in the next few years, then yes I will agree with you that the problem lies with Holmoe. But her hired as a football coach the person that a majority of the fans would have hired. That person may or not be the tight fit. Everyone was excited that Detmer was on the staff - until we were all mad as hell that he was on the staff. So he was let go early. Grimes was a very bold, but well reasoned move. He may or may not work out, - right now it might work. If there is no improvement next year then the whole shooting match needs to go. But there are very good arguments for not being too quick to blow up the whole thing.

I agree. And before you act, have a very good plan in place because rule number one is IT ALWAYS CAN GET WORSE....

In the twitter feed next to this topic we see that BYU finished 5th in the nation in fall sports portion of the Director's Cup standings. 5th in the nation. Tied for the best ever at the school - which is certainly better evidence of Holmoe's overall performance than anything I've read online from someone angry about how the basketball team is doing.

BoiseBYU wrote:
I agree. And before you act, have a very good plan in place because rule number one is IT ALWAYS CAN GET WORSE....

Unfortunately, many decision makers don't understand what "it can always get worse" means.



They think, "man, if I make a change, I might make it worse." That's the myopic view.



"It can always get worse" if you DON'T act as well.



The acknowledgement that things can always get worse should not be used to procrastinate or delay action. It should be a reminder to ALWAYS be working on contingency plans and placing your organization in a position to make a change quickly and with as little disruption as is necessary. Tom Holmoe should be refining his Dave Rose Replacement Plan (and Kalani Sitake Replacement Plan, and Shawn Olmstead Replacement Plan, and Heather Olmstead Replacement Plan, and Mike Littlewood Replacement Plan, and Guard Young Replacement Plan), especially when it becomes more and more likely that the change will need to be made, whether for health reasons, ineptitude, retirement, defection to another program, etc.



If you maintain your contingency plans, you find you are better prepared to make an honest assessment of your options. If you know your top-4 targets to replace a coach, you can assess their availability, your likelihood of successfully wooing them to come to BYU, and with that make a better judgment in deciding if things are more likely to get worse by maintaining the status quo, or by making a change.



Yeah, it can always get worse, so do your due diligence so you're in a better position to decide whether action or inaction is more likely to avoid that.

BYU football was better in 2018 than it was in 2017. That's good.



BYU football was worse in 2018 than it was in 2016. And 2015. And 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006...



That's bad.

Mars wrote:

BYU football was better in 2018 than it was in 2017. That's good.



BYU football was worse in 2018 than it was in 2016. And 2015. And 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006...



That's bad.

2018 football team beats 2010 football team.

snoscythe wrote:

I agree. And before you act, have a very good plan in place because rule number one is IT ALWAYS CAN GET WORSE....

Unfortunately, many decision makers don't understand what "it can always get worse" means.



They think, "man, if I make a change, I might make it worse." That's the myopic view.



"It can always get worse" if you DON'T act as well.



The acknowledgement that things can always get worse should not be used to procrastinate or delay action. It should be a reminder to ALWAYS be working on contingency plans and placing your organization in a position to make a change quickly and with as little disruption as is necessary. Tom Holmoe should be refining his Dave Rose Replacement Plan (and Kalani Sitake Replacement Plan, and Shawn Olmstead Replacement Plan, and Heather Olmstead Replacement Plan, and Mike Littlewood Replacement Plan, and Guard Young Replacement Plan), especially when it becomes more and more likely that the change will need to be made, whether for health reasons, ineptitude, retirement, defection to another program, etc.



If you maintain your contingency plans, you find you are better prepared to make an honest assessment of your options. If you know your top-4 targets to replace a coach, you can assess their availability, your likelihood of successfully wooing them to come to BYU, and with that make a better judgment in deciding if things are more likely to get worse by maintaining the status quo, or by making a change.



Yeah, it can always get worse, so do your due diligence so you're in a better position to decide whether action or inaction is more likely to avoid that.

Fair points. A good manager must always have options and an evaluation of those options vis a vis the status quo. Too often (at least as it seems to me) people clamor for change, and I was responding to that--change for the sake of change may get you in a worse spot.

Mars wrote:

BYU football was better in 2018 than it was in 2017. That's good.



BYU football was worse in 2018 than it was in 2016. And 2015. And 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006...



That's bad.

Minor correction 2010 and 2018 were both 7-6 and BYU didn't beat a P-5 team in 2010. I'd say this past year's team was closer in disappointment and success to the 2012 team.

I saw that 2010 had an ESPN FPI about 20 spots better than 2018.