TH...What is the VISION for BYU Football?

As a very loyal fan for many, many years, I am so confused about the vision for this program. To me it is so unclear. I am so tired of wandering aimlessly in the desert as if BYU Football is akin to being the Washington Generals. TH is the CEO of the athletic programs, and whatever the vision or objective is, I don't get it anymore. Am I the only one who feels this way? All I keep hearing is we want to take the team to the four corners of the country so all of the BYU family can partake of the tree of BYU football. I'm tired and I'm not even sure what I'm rooting for anymore.

The vision is play games against good teams across the nation and lose the important ones.

Wait, I thought it was “any team, any time, any where, and here’s some clear bags for home games so no one sneaks in a terrorisitc device, aka: food.”

Holmoe's vision for BYU football is to pay G5 level money, for G5 level coaching, with G5 level players, while hoping somehow BYU can win enough games against an increasingly P5 level schedule for BYU to remain relevant and appeal to ESPN.

4th place in the WCC and 7-5 in football.

There is no vision. That is quite apparent.



I suspect, TH threw us into independence thinking it would be a temporary measure. All bets were getting into the Big 12. Now that that isn't happening and doesn't look like it will (no conference is going to take us in today's political climate) we're in this weird void. Keep in mind, this is the bed TH made for us.



Indendence is fun, but to be competitive BYU has to shell out. BYU isn't going to shell out. Boosters aren't either. TH has no vision. What can TH sell to the boosters? They don't get anything out of donating money except pride and satisfaction. Pride in what?



Meanwhile, we lose recruits. The talent gap widens. If you are LDS and a big time athlete, you're going Utah and the Pac12. Utah St. has a better program right now. BYU is option 3.



Bronco saw this. I think it's no coincidence Bronco left the moment it was apparent BYU wasn't getting into the Big 12. He knew TH had no vision. All eggs were put into that basket.

Mars wrote:

4th place in the WCC and 7-5 in football.

4th place? Mars, you could have at least said 2nd place to help bring me out of my BYU funk :)

Gunk wrote:

There is no vision. That is quite apparent.



I suspect, TH threw us into independence thinking it would be a temporary measure. All bets were getting into the Big 12. Now that that isn't happening and doesn't look like it will (no conference is going to take us in today's political climate) we're in this weird void. Keep in mind, this is the bed TH made for us.



Indendence is fun, but to be competitive BYU has to shell out. BYU isn't going to shell out. Boosters aren't either. TH has no vision. What can TH sell to the boosters? They don't get anything out of donating money except pride and satisfaction. Pride in what?



Meanwhile, we lose recruits. The talent gap widens. If you are LDS and a big time athlete, you're going Utah and the Pac12. Utah St. has a better program right now. BYU is option 3.



Bronco saw this. I think it's no coincidence Bronco left the moment it was apparent BYU wasn't getting into the Big 12. He knew TH had no vision. All eggs were put into that basket.

Gunk, you have pretty much summed up my feelings on the state of affairs. My bigest concern is that the BOT is quite content with Holmoe's vision, or lack thereof, and the slow drain in the 2 major programs will continue. I have no answers, but I fear that the future won't be all that amazing. I hope that I am wrong.

Wolverine wrote:

There is no vision. That is quite apparent.



I suspect, TH threw us into independence thinking it would be a temporary measure. All bets were getting into the Big 12. Now that that isn't happening and doesn't look like it will (no conference is going to take us in today's political climate) we're in this weird void. Keep in mind, this is the bed TH made for us.



Indendence is fun, but to be competitive BYU has to shell out. BYU isn't going to shell out. Boosters aren't either. TH has no vision. What can TH sell to the boosters? They don't get anything out of donating money except pride and satisfaction. Pride in what?



Meanwhile, we lose recruits. The talent gap widens. If you are LDS and a big time athlete, you're going Utah and the Pac12. Utah St. has a better program right now. BYU is option 3.



Bronco saw this. I think it's no coincidence Bronco left the moment it was apparent BYU wasn't getting into the Big 12. He knew TH had no vision. All eggs were put into that basket.

Gunk, you have pretty much summed up my feelings on the state of affairs. My bigest concern is that the BOT is quite content with Holmoe's vision, or lack thereof, and the slow drain in the 2 major programs will continue. I have no answers, but I fear that the future won't be all that amazing. I hope that I am wrong.

From what I hear, the church isn't bringing in nearly as much tithing as it used to. We don't actually know this because we don't ever get an a legitimate accounting of what the church does with the money we give them, but the rumors I'm hearing from relatives that work for the church are tithes are shrinking. I don't see the BOT putting much if any resources into BYU sports. They are going to be more prudent with funds overall, even if tithing isn't used for sports. It just creates an attitude of don't-spend-money.



And, like I said, I don't see boosters shelling out. They ponied up for Sitake. Holmoe can't go back to them. He's got nothing to offer. They've invested in TH for a decade now and the results are worse.

For example, I no longer spend as much of my time on sports. I may not be happier.,. Yet, but I'm certainly more productive

Gunk wrote:

There is no vision. That is quite apparent.



I suspect, TH threw us into independence thinking it would be a temporary measure. All bets were getting into the Big 12. Now that that isn't happening and doesn't look like it will (no conference is going to take us in today's political climate) we're in this weird void. Keep in mind, this is the bed TH made for us.



Indendence is fun, but to be competitive BYU has to shell out. BYU isn't going to shell out. Boosters aren't either. TH has no vision. What can TH sell to the boosters? They don't get anything out of donating money except pride and satisfaction. Pride in what?



Meanwhile, we lose recruits. The talent gap widens. If you are LDS and a big time athlete, you're going Utah and the Pac12. Utah St. has a better program right now. BYU is option 3.



Bronco saw this. I think it's no coincidence Bronco left the moment it was apparent BYU wasn't getting into the Big 12. He knew TH had no vision. All eggs were put into that basket.

This is what I've been saying for months now and no one wants to hear it. Why did BYU not get into the B12? The honor code! Don't believe me go back and read what people around the country were talking about.

Why are the top LDS kids not going to BYU? Even LDS kids don't want to deal with it, and non LDS kids sure don't want to especially if your not winning.

Academic standards are killing the program. Do you think Ohio State is worried about fielding a team with a bunch of C students. NO! Why should BYU fans care? C's get degrees and could be the difference between 6-6 and 9-3.

BYU is handcuffing themselves in ever way imaginable right down to this belief that they have to have a card carrying member as a head coach. Why? Why does BYU have to hinder and limit themselves?

Honestly I haven't spent a dime on BYU merchandise or tickets in the last 2 years. I can't possibly be the only one. I was a loyal season ticket holder and I only stopped getting them when my son started playing football and then fall baseball and I couldn't make it to any games. But I always believed I would go back to buying them. It's been 2 years since my son stopped playing competitive baseball year round and I have zero interest in buying season tickets.

TH why should I spend my money on this program?

I think Holmoe might have felt independence was going to be temporary and short-termed. But he had to get the BOT to buy off on the move. Which they did. Then just a few years later, the BOT was hesitant to make another move to a conference because they probably felt BYU was being hasty with all the moves (leaving the MWC, going to join the WAC, then not, then joining the WCC, then trying to move to another conference). And they believed the spiel Holmoe had given them about the benefits of going independent and they wanted us to be cautious and patient, but they needed to make another quick decision. And by they time they could, forces opposing BYU and our moral stances had organized and sped up the timeline and changed the landscape. And BYU is slowly withering away it's athletic program.

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses - let's have another set of standards that's above the other set to ensure we live the set we're supposed to.



The HC needs to be reworked. It's warped into something more than it was intended, just like the Saducees and Pharisees. Roll the HC back so it's the same as the temple recommend questions and get rid of the policing bureaucracy that's associated with it. It doesn't do the school and LDS culture any favors as it currently is and is enforced. It turns everyone into tattle tellers, encourages an attitude of self-righteousness, and put the focus on adhering to a set of standards, not being a good, kind human being. It's an inward focused set of rules where the student by it's nature is concerned with themselves.



The academic standards for athletes can and should be lowered. Nothing wrong with Cs. The athletes still get a good education. By lowering the standard, BYU allows in larger set of athletes, ones that could actually benefit more from being at BYU.

Wolverine wrote:

4th place in the WCC and 7-5 in football.

4th place? Mars, you could have at least said 2nd place to help bring me out of my BYU funk :)

Too many losses to the Santa Claras and the Pepperdines.

Gunk wrote:

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses - let's have another set of standards that's above the other set to ensure we live the set we're supposed to.



The HC needs to be reworked. It's warped into something more than it was intended, just like the Saducees and Pharisees. Roll the HC back so it's the same as the temple recommend questions and get rid of the policing bureaucracy that's associated with it. It doesn't do the school and LDS culture any favors as it currently is and is enforced. It turns everyone into tattle tellers, encourages an attitude of self-righteousness, and put the focus on adhering to a set of standards, not being a good, kind human being. It's an inward focused set of rules where the student by it's nature is concerned with themselves.



The academic standards for athletes can and should be lowered. Nothing wrong with Cs. The athletes still get a good education. By lowering the standard, BYU allows in larger set of athletes, ones that could actually benefit more from being at BYU.

Abso.....freaking.........looootly!

Gunk wrote:

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses - let's have another set of standards that's above the other set to ensure we live the set we're supposed to.



The HC needs to be reworked. It's warped into something more than it was intended, just like the Saducees and Pharisees. Roll the HC back so it's the same as the temple recommend questions and get rid of the policing bureaucracy that's associated with it. It doesn't do the school and LDS culture any favors as it currently is and is enforced. It turns everyone into tattle tellers, encourages an attitude of self-righteousness, and put the focus on adhering to a set of standards, not being a good, kind human being. It's an inward focused set of rules where the student by it's nature is concerned with themselves.



The academic standards for athletes can and should be lowered. Nothing wrong with Cs. The athletes still get a good education. By lowering the standard, BYU allows in larger set of athletes, ones that could actually benefit more from being at BYU.

I am sure that the Honor Code has served it's purpose, as did Home Teaching and the 3 Hour Block Schedule. I can't think of a better time to rework the Honor Code than now. I don't know this for a fact, but I believe many universities have codes of conduct that relate to academic integrity and students and athletes being law abiding citizens. Yes, there are always those coaches and university leaders due to a "win at all costs" mentality, who look the "other way" or ignore bad behavior (Urban, Baylor, North Carolina to name just a few). The way in which BYU self-reported the Nick Emery fiasco leads me to believe that this just would not happen at BYU. BYU could rework the Honor Code, and could still be an institution with the highest of values. Time to embrace more of a "ministering" culture and embrace the uniqueness and individuality of all who choose to attend BYU.

At this point I think Holmoe is waiting to see how things will change in a few years when the conference TV contracts end.

The vision is to give BYU a chance to compete for the national championship while being deliberately kept out of the P5. For all of you doubters and grousers with understandable frustration out there, here's a news flash: 2018 shows the vision is working and on track.



For those of you who don't really get why BYU is not in a P5 conference, let me ask you, do you have a child in college? If not, it is not so obvious to you what most modern colleges have morphed into over the last two decades: indoctrination houses of the progressive ideology. They have become increasingly effective at accomplish their job of training generations of increasingly hostile leftists. You may roll your eyes and think this has nothing to do with sports, but consider this: outside of well-run endowments, successful sports programs are the most effective way to raise non-government-subsidized income to the school and since only about a dozen schools have well-run endowments, sports is the next nearest money grab.



Because tuition is subsidized by government loans and state-run school budgets are sustained by government funding, higher education is majority funded by the government and largely run by appointees of said government. All of the money that comes from their successful sports programs, pays for things the govt subsides don't have to, and meanwhile generates highly valuable advertising for a school's brand. That money and that influence plays a significant role in maintaining these machines that act ever more like union bosses supporting the political left. Above all the accomplishes the express purpose of putting and keeping the left in political power.



So while you might have thought the NCAA was all about fairness and doing the right thing until Jim Delaney came along an hogged the P5 money to the P5 teams only, the reality is that this cancerous influence in higher education runs much deeper and has for some time. There is no way in this ideological hell that BYU will ever be allowed a shot at a P5 conference. Well I suppose the country could massively convert to the gospel of Jesus Christ, but...



Consider that BYU is run by an entity that is the polar opposite of what the progressive left stands for in almost every way. Consider that BYU's education system represents the best education value on a relative basis on the planet (and that assumes NON-member tuition prices). Consider that despite being a religious institution unfairly targeted by this ideological mob, ESPN recognizes the value of its large and growing audience. All on its own BYU is a force. You think they'll ever let that force get a footing? I'm telling you what Tom Holmoe and BYU's Administration and Board of Directors know and have known for quite a while: not a chance!



So how can you level the playing field for yourself in such an environment? Independence was and continues to be the answer.



Here is how we can tell, plainly, that it is working: Rankings. Compare BYU, Boise State, and Utah State this year. It's a great comparison because BYU in the mountain west in days past looked a lot those two teams do this year. Fielding the best team they've had in ages, the Agges went 10-1 and were ranked #21 in the playoff rankings this year while a respectable two-loss Boise State was ranked #23. Far beyond the bounds of relevance, these teams have turned in good seasons against mostly mild competition for which they have been penalized.



But suppose they HAD gone undefeated. Would they have been given any serious consideration? I wish it were true that Utah State had beaten Michigan State and Boise State so that we could all see plainly the answer to that question. The answer is no. They would only be ranked somewhere around #10. The proof is UCF: the team with the nation's longest winning streak who is being treated the way BYU had been treated in year's past despite excellent performance.



Consider the different the Wisconsin game made. By week three, EVEN WITH A LOSS to CAL, BYU was ranked. Suppose BYU had, against its current schedule, managed to go undefeated. Where would it be right now? Quite clearly they would be ranked in the top 5. The evidence, of course, is Notre Dame. Notre Dame has, on its resume today Michigan, Northwestern, Pitt, and Syracuse. Four teams that were in contention to play for their respective league championships. BYU being undefeated would have victories over Utah, Washington, and Boise that would end up being strong enough to matter in the end.



Even with all of this, it may not be possible for BYU to have made the playoffs this year, simply because Notre Dame went undefeated, along with two other teams. However if BYU manages an undefeated season against its current level of scheduling, then this year shows clearly that they would have room in the conversation and that the pollsters would have likely propped them up to that level. Additionally, imagine BYU with only one loss to say, Cal. That team could still be ranked in the top 10 and be talking about an NY6 bowl game. There is no way this happens except with the scheduling we are currently getting.



Sure this was a frustrating season, but those of you who want to blame "unintelligent scheduling" and Tom Holmoe for this are barking up the wrong tree. For his part Tom Holmoe has worked wonders for the program and independence is by far the best way to have accomplished it given the environment we are in.



Now if for some reason the light breaks through the clouds and BYU is offered a chance to be part of a P5 conference and that conference would work to assure that BYU would never have to play on Sunday (really fat chance on the last one). Then great! let's do it! Once again: it will never happen.

Mars wrote:

4th place in the WCC and 7-5 in football.

7-5? I would love to be 7-5 right now. Unfortunately Tuiaki's defense gave up 21 4th quarter points and we blew that opportunity. BYU is going to end the year at 6-7 and have the second straight losing season under Sitake.

Gunk wrote:

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses...

Wow. Just Wow. Time for a quick Sunday school lesson here. This kind of tripe needs to NOT be promulgated!



#1 - The Honor code is just that. On your Honor. It is truly grand to see such a thing given a place in ANY modern day institution. Think VERY CAREFULLY before you deride that.



#2 - if you think for one second that the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time were behaving hypocritically merely because they had a slavish confusion over the law of Moses, then you haven't been studying your scriptures closely enough. Jesus wasn't put to death because some prissy little spiritual bean counters got offended, he was put to death because a cynical criminal element of the blackest sort had come to spiritual and political power in Jerusalem during that time. These are the people that executed John the Baptist, an outsider-nobody, simply because the wife of a top bureaucrat got offended by something he said (something which was simple and true and everybody knew it by the way). And despite their supposed devotion to the law, these so called spiritual leaders of the time looked the other way for political expediency. That's cold-blooded murder at an institutional level.



To compare BYU's administration and Board of Directors to such people is patently offensive to me. I don't think anyone who posts such a sentiment has thought it through very well to say such a thing. Anyone who feels to argue against the Honor code and still remain a fan of BYU should consider modifying your tone as you make your arguments because that notion right there is just plain sick.



But let me assume your argument has merit outside of the misguided slur you've hurled at those implementing the HC right now.



Let me ask you this: how exactly is the Honor code stifling recruiting at BYU? Because it keeps student athletes who are promiscuous and pot-smoking from coming to the school? Why exactly is this a problem? Are the best players out there exclusively those who smoke pot or sleep around? For all its limitations BYU fielded a team essentially equivalent to the winners of the PAC-12 Southern Conference. Was it the Honor Code that kept them from being any better?



This is a silly soapbox. If the Honor Code keeps a repeat of the Gary Crowton era scandal from happening on campus ever again, then it is worth every misunderstanding it might cause along the way!



I am willing to admit that most football players don't grow up thinking they need to wait until marriage to have sex, and perhaps legitimate non-LDS standards could be articulated for non-LDS players who profess a faith that somehow condones girlfriend-boyfriend committed relationships that include sex before marriage. But how hard is it to fold an interpretation of that into the current HC. I'll bet many of you would be surprised if you were to find out that it already is (I suspect this is true but have no knowledge of this)?



Meanwhile in this world of #MeToo (ignoring the hypocrisy of those who would use it for political aims) NO football player ANYWHERE should think it is simply fun, safe or in any way acceptable behavior, to engage in parties where young women are going to be drunk enough to hook up for a night. That has career-ending danger written all over it nowadays. The Honor Code is a useful protection for any athlete. Do you really want to fight that?