Am I Over Reacting as a Parent?

My son went on a campout this past weekend. It was not a BSA campout, just a church YM campout. There are a few things that happened that have irked my wife and I. Read and tell me what you think.



Communication. Aside from the fact that there was a campout being announced a few times in Priesthood there were zero details that went out or made it to the parents. This didn't bug me too much (as long as he wants to go and has fun I didn't care too much) but my wife is a worry mom (not unheard of). She sent a short two sentence email to the YM president asking why no details were provided and if he would please do so. This intent of the email was not to be mean. For previous campouts there have been emails and Facebook posts so we were always in the loop in what was going on. Well, the YM president's wife starts texting my wife about how the kids planned everything and it's the kids responsibility to tell the parents and her husband did nothing wrong and maybe the bishop needs to train the kids better. We were just wanting to know what the activities were going to be and which leaders would be there. I'm not saying that my kid couldn't have done a better job of communicating with us but he's 12. I realize the YM president is a volunteer. But he's an adult and should probably do a better job of communicating with the parents. In the past I have been in a YM presidency over the deacons and I learned very quickly that not much information makes from me to the boys to the parents. Probably about 50% of my efforts was coordinating information with the parents. Yes, it would be great to see the YM step up to be awesome leaders and do 100% everything, but they're still young. And I found out on Sunday that one of the deacons really wanted to go but got the date mixed up. Yes, he was in priesthood and heard about it like everyone else, but his dad works a night shift so he misses early church. That kid could really use some friends...



Gun safety. Since we had no communication and had no idea what any of the activities were going to be I didn't know that they were going to be shooting guns. I have nothing against guns. I own a shotgun and love to go shooting. However, my son complained that the gun (20 gauge shotgun) was real loud and his ears were ringing. No ear protection. No eye protection. No gun safety instructions. They literally just handed him a 20 gauge and said have fun. When I go shooting with my adult family and friends, we always talk about gun safety before we start shooting. That is not something to take lightly!



Trip home. My son was in car for the 2 hour ride home alone with one adult. I know this wasn't a BSA activity, but doesn't the church have similar standards? And my son said the adult was watching a movie on his phone while driving!



I'm open to honest opinions. I don't want to be a helicopter parent that doesn't let my kids out of the house. In fact I think that I'm far from that. I also am not trying to get anyone in trouble. But I feel like I should contact the bishop so that he's aware and so that training can happen so that everybody has fun and is safe.

Good points are good. Don't be afraid to bring legitimate things up with those in charge.

Sounds like a bunch of things went wrong. It is impossible to see whether there was an overreaction here without seeing what the email said that was sent to the YM president. My experience is that often times these emails can come across much harsher than we realize (full disclosure I've been on both the sending and receiving end of the harsh email - so I'm not pointing fingers)



Also, the email from your wife would have been better directed to the second counselor in the YM presidency. That person would have the obligation to coordinate with the parents of the deacons.



I would not have sent my 12 year old to a campout with guns without me being there to decide how safe the activity was. Having not been there it is impossible to know how safe the event was. 12 year old boys are not reliable witnesses to how much safety training and supervision happens. If the event was being handled safely - I would have no problem with the event.



Also, I trusted very few people in the ward to actually drive my kids on campouts - I was always the volunteer to drive and supervise. I made this decision after I walked around the church parking lot and looked at the tires of the potential drivers. I am aware of many cars in our ward suffering from deferred maintenance. (not all awards are equal in that regard)



My 2 cents would be to set up a meeting with the second counselor in the YM presidency to talk about your concerns. If you are not happy with that discussion then go to the bishopric counselor over the YM and have a discussion. If that is unfruitful then go to the bishop. In face discussions are way way more productive than emails and texts.



Good luck navigating through this

Yes, the leaders need to make sure communication happens with parents. Especially because every overnight activity needs an activity plan, which is supposed to be completed (and approved by the Bishop) weeks before you even announce the event. A lot of leaders seem to think that because the Scouts did away with their Tour Plans that you can just play it by ear. The Church has actually replaced it with something just as, if not more, rigorous, but I would guess 90%+ of wards don't know it exists. Find it here:



https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/young-men/activity-plan.pdf



Even more concerning about parents not knowing what is going on is this indicates that there was no permission forms. When the Church updated the Activity Plan last year, they also beefed up the Parental Permission form that is required before youth can participate on overnight activities (also potentially dangerous activities like shooting guns, and in our ward, we require them for travel outside of the Stake boundaries). If you or your wife did not sign one of this, the youth leaders should not have taken your son on the activity. The new form (if filled out properly) should have informed you exactly what was going on, including the firearms. Again, I think 90% of wards are still using the half-sheet forms that were retired over a year ago. The new form is here:



https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/young-men/parental-permission-medical-release.pdf



As for the gun safety issue. That's a big red flag for me, and we are a very gun-friendly household. The activity plan that the leaders should have used even reminds that the leaders on the activity have an obligation to "Instruct participants in safety practices unique to the activity before the activity begins."



Finally, as for the alone in the car issue, I am also uncomfortable with that. The Scouts now, as part of their two-deep leadership training would prohibit that situation. The Church does not expressly prohibit leaders alone with youth in cars, but I think that would be prohibited by the Spirit of their new guidelines (here: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/Preventing-and-Responding-to-Abuse-attachment-final.pdf). I know that the leaders claimed this was not a Scout activity, but I would like to see them explain how registered Scout leaders taking registered Scouts on a campout that was planned during the time Scouting usually takes place was not a Scout activity. They might say "the boys planned it, not us, so it wasn't a Scout activity". Unfortunately, that's exactly how Scouts is supposed to operate, and just because you're trying to do a non-Scouting activity doesn't mean that you don't follow best practices.



To me, this boils down to a lack of training. It sounds like the new training, new planning materials, and new parental permission slips are not being used. Training is the responsibility of the Stake, so if I were in your shoes I would ask to meet with a member of the Stake Young Mens presidency (who is responsible to train the ward YM leaders) or even a member of the Stake Presidency to go over your concerns. I would also ask for a similar sit-down with the member of your Bishopric over the Young Men and Scouts.



This forms and policies seem bureaucratic, and they are, but they lead to an organized program where you eliminate many unnecessary risks and you earn the trust of parents and youth by communicating clearly what is going to happen so that they can be better prepared or involved.

As others have said, I feel you have a right to be concerned about the issues that happened on the camp out. I would speak with the Bishopric.

snoscythe wrote:

Yes, the leaders need to make sure communication happens with parents. Especially because every overnight activity needs an activity plan, which is supposed to be completed (and approved by the Bishop) weeks before you even announce the event. A lot of leaders seem to think that because the Scouts did away with their Tour Plans that you can just play it by ear. The Church has actually replaced it with something just as, if not more, rigorous, but I would guess 90%+ of wards don't know it exists. Find it here:



https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/young-men/activity-plan.pdf



Even more concerning about parents not knowing what is going on is this indicates that there was no permission forms. When the Church updated the Activity Plan last year, they also beefed up the Parental Permission form that is required before youth can participate on overnight activities (also potentially dangerous activities like shooting guns, and in our ward, we require them for travel outside of the Stake boundaries). If you or your wife did not sign one of this, the youth leaders should not have taken your son on the activity. The new form (if filled out properly) should have informed you exactly what was going on, including the firearms. Again, I think 90% of wards are still using the half-sheet forms that were retired over a year ago. The new form is here:



https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/young-men/parental-permission-medical-release.pdf



As for the gun safety issue. That's a big red flag for me, and we are a very gun-friendly household. The activity plan that the leaders should have used even reminds that the leaders on the activity have an obligation to "Instruct participants in safety practices unique to the activity before the activity begins."



Finally, as for the alone in the car issue, I am also uncomfortable with that. The Scouts now, as part of their two-deep leadership training would prohibit that situation. The Church does not expressly prohibit leaders alone with youth in cars, but I think that would be prohibited by the Spirit of their new guidelines (here: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/Preventing-and-Responding-to-Abuse-attachment-final.pdf). I know that the leaders claimed this was not a Scout activity, but I would like to see them explain how registered Scout leaders taking registered Scouts on a campout that was planned during the time Scouting usually takes place was not a Scout activity. They might say "the boys planned it, not us, so it wasn't a Scout activity". Unfortunately, that's exactly how Scouts is supposed to operate, and just because you're trying to do a non-Scouting activity doesn't mean that you don't follow best practices.



To me, this boils down to a lack of training. It sounds like the new training, new planning materials, and new parental permission slips are not being used. Training is the responsibility of the Stake, so if I were in your shoes I would ask to meet with a member of the Stake Young Mens presidency (who is responsible to train the ward YM leaders) or even a member of the Stake Presidency to go over your concerns. I would also ask for a similar sit-down with the member of your Bishopric over the Young Men and Scouts.



This forms and policies seem bureaucratic, and they are, but they lead to an organized program where you eliminate many unnecessary risks and you earn the trust of parents and youth by communicating clearly what is going to happen so that they can be better prepared or involved.

Thank you for this! Post of the day!!

I would never let my son go on any activity with a YM presidency that did this. Completely unacceptable.

SpiffCoug wrote:

I would never let my son go on any activity with a YM presidency that did this. Completely unacceptable.

Me too. I'd prefer to train the leaders to make sure the boys do it right. People make mistakes and can learn from them.



They certainly did one thing correctly - if the boys planned the event for real they're outperforming 98% of LDS deacon's quorums and just for that I'd stick with that group of leaders.



If you're not already, I'd join the Scout committee. Like snocythe says, if they just follow the activity plan and get parental permission forms done everything else would work itself out. Just ask the YM leaders to make sure the boys do that part of the planning as well.



I remember when I was a newly called 2nd counselor in a YM presidency at age 24 in my first family ward. I'm sure people could have pointed out a million things I did wrong. Join with the leaders, and especially the boys to make sure they learn how to plan activities safely.

In my opinion the answer is no.



How I would handle it however would be to speak to the Bishop so he can organize the needed training. As Sno pointed out, this whole problem is due to lack of training. I "finally" just got released from our Bishopric (called to teach seminary - out of the frying pan and into the fire! - but it took a while for the Bishopric release so at least I get to sit with my family again in Sacrament meeting :) ). Anyway, the Bishops have been receiving a lot of training and support due to all the changes recently and should be in a good position to get the YM presidency up to snuff. I've been YM President and a councilor in three wards now and I'll say I felt overwhelmed the first time I was called and I relied heavily on the Bishop for guidance and support. Remember the Bishopric attends class with the three quorums so they are with the boys almost as much as the YM presidency (in other words they work closely with the YM Presidency) so it may be the way to get things changed without ruffling feathers.

As for the ride, I would be very displeased that my son rode in a car with a leader texting and driving. That I'm not sure how I would really handle it but it would probably be a little side meeting with the driver to explain how scared my son was etc and to please don't do it anymore regardless of whether my son is with him or not. I would impress that his life and the lives of others are not worth the text.

Too often leadership gets it wrong and thinks that letting a boy plan an activity means not reminding them of important things like hearing protection. That would irk me to no end. I suggest following Sno’s advice. Read the links so you can speak intelligently about your concerns.

Thanks for everyone's advice. I've printed out the forms from Sno's links and I'll be speaking with a bishopric counselor next Sunday (already set that up) and will most likely also meet with someone from the Stake YM (have not set that up yet). My purpose will not to be angry or to get anyone in trouble, but to bring awareness so that the future activities will be safe.



I mean if something bad had happened I could probably sue since they were not following any of their procedures. But that is not my intent.

byufan4ever wrote:

I mean if something bad had happened I could probably sue since they were not following any of their procedures. But that is not my intent.

I'm remembering the paintball wars we had while I was in the YM presidency. I didn't think twice about it because that's just what we did in my wards growing up. Our ward had a box of slingshots and paintball guns in the cupboard. Talk about an invitation to sue. And nobody ever said a word to me about it in training.

byufan4ever wrote:
I mean if something bad had happened I could probably sue since they were not following any of their procedures. But that is not my intent.

You can always sue.



The big difference that these leaders need to understand is that the Church and/or BSA insurance coverages won't extend to leaders who ignore or fail to obtain required trainings.



You're an additional insured to the extent you get trained and follow your training. To not get trained (or to train, if that's your responsibility) is to put your neck much farther out than it needs to be.