QB: It's down to 2, Mangum/Wilson

https://twitter.com/drewjay/status/1029360647723573248



Also noted is that Hall and Critchelow are battling for the 3rd spot.

I still say let's go with Wilson. If he's "neck & neck" with Mangum as far as passing and running the offense, he definitely adds the additional resource of being a better scrambling QB. So in essence, they are not at the same level because Mangum isn't a scrambler.



This way too, Mangum is there if something happens to Wilson. It's been a LOOONNNNGGGGG time since we've had a QB go from start to finish, so it stands to reason that Mangum will play, even if Wilson is the starter.

EM_Puma wrote:

I still say let's go with Wilson. If he's "neck & neck" with Mangum as far as passing and running the offense, he definitely adds the additional resource of being a better scrambling QB. So in essence, they are not at the same level because Mangum isn't a scrambler.



This way too, Mangum is there if something happens to Wilson. It's been a LOOONNNNGGGGG time since we've had a QB go from start to finish, so it stands to reason that Mangum will play, even if Wilson is the starter.

We can all probably agree that the most popular person on the FB team this year will be the backup QB. I'm afraid that a freshman may be rattled by the Boo- birds that are sure to come quick and often. I say let Mangum handle the new offense and work through the inevitable kinks, let the Freshman be getting ready if needed

EM_Puma wrote:

I still say let's go with Wilson. If he's "neck & neck" with Mangum as far as passing and running the offense, he definitely adds the additional resource of being a better scrambling QB. So in essence, they are not at the same level because Mangum isn't a scrambler.

I go the opposite direction. If "neck & neck", I would go with the experienced QB who knows the speed of the game and has experience reading NCAA defenses.



It's also worth noting that Grimes didn't narrow his opinion and say they were "neck and neck as far as passing and running the offense". He said "Those two guys have been neck and neck since the day that we started" without limiting it to just passing and running the offense. For all we know, that assessment includes factoring the mobility/scrambling factor.

EM_Puma wrote:

I still say let's go with Wilson. If he's "neck & neck" with Mangum as far as passing and running the offense, he definitely adds the additional resource of being a better scrambling QB. So in essence, they are not at the same level because Mangum isn't a scrambler.



This way too, Mangum is there if something happens to Wilson. It's been a LOOONNNNGGGGG time since we've had a QB go from start to finish, so it stands to reason that Mangum will play, even if Wilson is the starter.

I remember a couple of years ago when all the reports were that Mangum and Taysom were "neck and neck" in the QB race. Word was that Mangum was more accurate and ran the offense better so Taysom won the job because of his legs. The entire year, since Taysom wasn't running as explosively, we had to endure all the "we need to bench taysom" coaches every time we won a game that fans thought shouldn't have been so close. I don't care who plays, I am going to let the coaches who see the players in practice and see them in meetings pick the qb and then I will ride the ride with that QB. We have learned that fans rarely know what is best for a college or pro football team even though every time I point that out somone comes on here and points out an outlier where some fans had it right (in hindsight I might add). Also, I have decided that I will never again believe what the media is reporting after about 20 years of the media talking about how great our receivers or offensive line is finally going to be this year.

snoscythe wrote:

It's also worth noting that Grimes didn't narrow his opinion and say they were "neck and neck as far as passing and running the offense". He said "Those two guys have been neck and neck since the day that we started" without limiting it to just passing and running the offense. For all we know, that assessment includes factoring the mobility/scrambling factor.

Same thought came to me too, but we don't have the data to know the answer to that. I'm supposing only that he has been speaking to their ability to move the offense, which would normally include any yardage gained by the QB, but who knows? It's going to be a tough call and unless the team beats the Vegas odds, there's going to be a lot of people making noise no matter which direction they go.



Honestly, I would think Mangum is the man based on experience in a close race, but I still can't put my finger on his downturn in 2017. I've heard a lot of possibilities (broader stance, depression, couldn't pick up Detmer's offense (which really is the scariest excuse if true), etc.), but it was very unusual for a QB to regress to the level he did.

What's really tough is we have no idea how Wilson will perform against a decent defense. So we're basing it all on conjecture.

That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see the Cougars go with Wilson to start and if he's dug himself in a hole by halftime, bring on Mangum. Not conventional, but bottom line is I want a win.

EM_Puma wrote:
I still can't put my finger on [Mangum's] downturn in 2017. I've heard a lot of possibilities (broader stance, depression, couldn't pick up Detmer's offense (which really is the scariest excuse if true), etc.), but it was very unusual for a QB to regress to the level he did.

Until proven otherwise, I place that blame on Detmer. Here's why:



1) In the Nebraska game (pre-injury) Taysom Hill looked like Steve Young v2.0. He moved confidently in the pocket, threw darts, scrambled when needed, and when he ran, he did so decisively. He looked amazing. That was under Anae/Beck as OC/QB coach.



2) In his one season under Ty Detmer as OC/QB coach, Taysom looked lost in the pocket, didn't have terrific control or touch on passes, and was hesitant to tuck and run. We chalked it up to being less than 100%, not having confidence in his repaired leg, etc. etc.



3) The next season, Taysom was in Green Bay for the preseason and out from under Detmer, and suddenly he looked like he did against Nebraska, confident, calm, cool, capable.



Now, extrapolating that to Mangum, we have seen phase 1 and 2 for Mangum:



1) Under Anae/Beck Mangum had a 23:9 TD/Int ratio, a passer rating of 136, and a QBR of 70.7. We were excited about him, and talk was around whether Taysom should see the field again after his injury when we had a young Mangum.



2) Under Ty Detmer, Mangum looked lost. He had a 11:10 TD/Int ratio, a passer rating of 115, and a QBR under 50.



What we haven't seen from Mangum is the phase 3 post-Detmer rebound. After seeing Taysom regain pre-Detmer form with Green Bay, I am hopeful we see the same from Tanner this season under Grimes/Roderick.

snoscythe wrote:

I still can't put my finger on [Mangum's] downturn in 2017. I've heard a lot of possibilities (broader stance, depression, couldn't pick up Detmer's offense (which really is the scariest excuse if true), etc.), but it was very unusual for a QB to regress to the level he did.

Until proven otherwise, I place that blame on Detmer. Here's why:



1) In the Nebraska game (pre-injury) Taysom Hill looked like Steve Young v2.0. He moved confidently in the pocket, threw darts, scrambled when needed, and when he ran, he did so decisively. He looked amazing. That was under Anae/Beck as OC/QB coach.



2) In his one season under Ty Detmer as OC/QB coach, Taysom looked lost in the pocket, didn't have terrific control or touch on passes, and was hesitant to tuck and run. We chalked it up to being less than 100%, not having confidence in his repaired leg, etc. etc.



3) The next season, Taysom was in Green Bay for the preseason and out from under Detmer, and suddenly he looked like he did against Nebraska, confident, calm, cool, capable.



Now, extrapolating that to Mangum, we have seen phase 1 and 2 for Mangum:



1) Under Anae/Beck Mangum had a 23:9 TD/Int ratio, a passer rating of 136, and a QBR of 70.7. We were excited about him, and talk was around whether Taysom should see the field again after his injury when we had a young Mangum.



2) Under Ty Detmer, Mangum looked lost. He had a 11:10 TD/Int ratio, a passer rating of 115, and a QBR under 50.



What we haven't seen from Mangum is the phase 3 post-Detmer rebound. After seeing Taysom regain pre-Detmer form with Green Bay, I am hopeful we see the same from Tanner this season under Grimes/Roderick.

It really is very fascinating when you step outside of how horrible a disappointment the Detmer offense was. I still love Ty Detmer. My brother in law gave me an autographed jersey of his that I will proudly display when I have my own cougar cave. He is the Quarterback of my youth, and I will never forget that Miami game. But the transition from player to coach didn't pan out. I think there is something to be said about great players not being great coaches since things just kind of clicked for them, and they didn't have to analyze and explain it to others like the okay players who had to work really hard to get there. It seems that personal athletic achievement can actually be a detractor to being a great coach. I guess there is hope for my son yet. :D



As for Tanner or Wilson, the best player should play. Football players respect competition. They do not respect favoritism. They can see who is best, and will support that person because it gives the team the best chance to win. Either way we go, I am very interested to either see an improved Mangum or what this Wilson kid has to offer.

It won't matter a whole lot WHO is QB if the receivers can't get open and make plays.

Cougarfan87 wrote:

Either way we go, I am very interested to either see an improved Mangum or what this Wilson kid has to offer.

Bottom line for me is that in reality, I have confidence that either choice appears to be poised to be effective. I usually side on experience and originally, when this fall camp started, I wasn't on board to let a true freshman start. The comments someone made this week that A-Rod has been in this situation before and has picked the freshman and the results were positive makes me feel that their jobs are on the line and so I think they will go with what they believe is most effective.



I see a general display of a lot of fans being a bit gun-shy after enduring what we hope was only an "anomaly" year or the perfect storm at 4-9. It was most evident that our down-slide was largely affected by a passel of QB's due to injuries. We are reserved at all the coach-speak that abounds on how things have changed, etc. Arizona should tell us a lot of where we are.

BoiseBYU wrote:

It won't matter a whole lot WHO is QB if the receivers can't get open and make plays.

Always true, but I feel a bit more confident this season than last--probably largely due to Collie being there. I know he's not a reincarnation of his older brother, but he's a proven receiver that we didn't have last season.

I'm not wild about starting a freshmen. Give Wilson a season to learn and adapt to the college game while Grimes gets his offense clicking.



As Hawk said, neck and neck against this defense isn't saying much.

BoiseBYU wrote:

It won't matter a whole lot WHO is QB if the receivers can't get open and make plays.

BINGO!! and the offensive line can't block. This has been the issue since about 2009. We have had some good guys here and there in the receiver corps but the Oline has sucked for a LONG time, in fact since Grimes was last here. Hopefully he will have them back up to par this year.

EM_Puma wrote:

It won't matter a whole lot WHO is QB if the receivers can't get open and make plays.

Always true, but I feel a bit more confident this season than last--probably largely due to Collie being there. I know he's not a reincarnation of his older brother, but he's a proven receiver that we didn't have last season.

I wasn't too impressed with what Collie did last year against BYU's bad defense as a Hawaii receiver. I'm just not buying the hype. Last year was not an "anomoly" it was a result of the culture that a bad head coach led. My only hope is that with the hire of a hard nosed coach like Grimes, that Sitake has woken up and is now running a disciplined program. The biggest concern is that his d coordinator who did a horrible job last year is still leading the defense. Like has been said, Arizona is going to tell us a lot.

frdbtr wrote:
Last year was not an "anomoly" it was a result of the culture that a bad head coach led.

Wellllll.....it's possible it was partly a coaching issue, but when was the last time we were forced, because of injuries, to have to rely on the 4th string QB? You can't ignore that fact. The worse record in several decades and the first time we have HAD to rely on a 4th string QB. Hard to argue that there was no correlation there in some way.

EM_Puma wrote:

Last year was not an "anomoly" it was a result of the culture that a bad head coach led.

Wellllll.....it's possible it was partly a coaching issue, but when was the last time we were forced, because of injuries, to have to rely on the 4th string QB? You can't ignore that fact. The worse record in several decades and the first time we have HAD to rely on a 4th string QB. Hard to argue that there was no correlation there in some way.

to my point of view, there was much more wrong than just the qb even though we were 4 deep. Last years team quit in multiple games. I had never seen such a lacsidaisical football team in all my years of watching college football. They had no toughness at any position, even on defense. That, IMO, is culture and it was due to bad coaching.

EM_Puma wrote:

Last year was not an "anomoly" it was a result of the culture that a bad head coach led.

Wellllll.....it's possible it was partly a coaching issue, but when was the last time we were forced, because of injuries, to have to rely on the 4th string QB? You can't ignore that fact. The worse record in several decades and the first time we have HAD to rely on a 4th string QB. Hard to argue that there was no correlation there in some way.

I'm too lazy to verify ... but I don't remember much (if any) of a drop off in production in the QB position. Said another way, yes we were on our 4th string QB but it's not like the first three guys were getting anything done in the QB position , meaning, in my mind, it's a coaching issue.

frdbtr wrote:

BoiseBYU wrote:

It won't matter a whole lot WHO is QB if the receivers can't get open and make plays.

Always true, but I feel a bit more confident this season than last--probably largely due to Collie being there. I know he's not a reincarnation of his older brother, but he's a proven receiver that we didn't have last season.

Last year was not an "anomoly" it was a result of the culture that a bad head coach led.

Last year was an anomaly due to the fact that is was BYU's first 4-9 record in 40 years. It was the result of 38 serious injuries to the 44 first and second string players as well as to the dismal O-line and WR coaching than anything else. I still see BYU winning 8 to 9 games this year if they have solved the injury problem.