Prop 8 Revisited

Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.

Gunk wrote:

Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.

In my 68+ years of walking this earth, I have yet to see the Church do anything that remotely looks stupid. I’ve seen a lot of stupid members but not any stupidity from the Church.

Gunk wrote:

Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.

While reasonable people can debate, years later and in hindsight, the merits of the Church’s stand regarding Prop 8, I think it unfair and inaccurate to call that participation “stupid.”

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

Ddawg wrote:

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.

Cougarfan87 wrote:

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.

Interesting and thought provoking.

Ddawg wrote:

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

Every religion should stay out of politics. Every church and religion should worry about those that walk through the doors of there church, and stop trying to be the moral police of those who have no intention of listening or caring what they say.



Everyone can be mad at the LBGT groups, but they felt the church was doing them wrong during the whole prop 8. And the wrong they felt the church was doing against them they were able to turn the tables against the church and do it right back to them when BYU was trying to get into the B12.

Cougarfan87 wrote:

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.

I understand where you are coming from. I also disagree. A few points. I was one of those guys in CA asked to support Prop 8 by knocking on doors, talking to people, distributing door hangers, distributing flyers, distributing yard signs, posters, and being a poll watcher on election day. I did it all. I spent weeks and many hours working tirelessly. We alienated people. Families were split (within the church). I know an LDS gay teenager that hung himself. His family was devastated - and have quit coming to church (I am good friends with the father). BYU football was blocked from getting into the Big 12. I have an LDS friend who is a successful businessman in the entertainment industry. The Hollywood crowd are his clients. He makes million each year. He donated a big chunk to the Prop 8 effort. The LBGT crowd hacked the computers and got the list of Prop 8 donors and published their names. It severely hurt his business for years - and his family. There is a lot more I could share, but this will suffice.



Am I saying the church was stupid? No. But, you have to evaluate risk vs gain. A very public stance was taken. A hard line was drawn and a temporary victory was gained. That temporary gain (passing Prop 8 ) solidified and mobilized the pro-gay LBGT communities in CA and they won the war. The big picture here is that the LDS church and BYU have nothing to show for the Prop 8 endeavor, but they made a lot of enemies. These are permanent enemies. I am not suggesting lowering or abandoning standards. I am saying you must pick your battles wisely.

I too was one called upon to support Prop 8. Participated in polling, was asked to donate money multiple times, and even found myself on a picket line a couple of times getting all sorts of lovely remarks hurled my way. It was surreal. The entire time I knew we were kicking a hornet's nest, but I did it anyways.



Prop 8 became a catalyst for the LGBT community. While the LGBT has always had a beef with religion, it was nothing like before Prop 8. They took the mobilization of the LDS church against them as an act of war and everything we're seeing towards the Church is retaliation for Prop 8.



People in CA used to say Mormons were good people. I used to get inquisitive questions. I used to get support. If someone was poking fun of Mormons, people used to pipe up and tell them to stop. With Prop 8, all of that disappeared. Mormons are now bigots, racists, and zealots. Instead of questions, I got accusations. Instead of support, I was shunned. Instead of defense, a pile-on.



I lost friends. I lost standing within my profession. I had to keep quite about my religion in fear of retaliation. All things I was willing to endure. But seeing your daughter lose friend after friend as they found out she was Mormon was heart breaking. Wasn't her fault.



If the aim of Prop 8 was to making living in CA nearly unbearable for members and getting them to leave CA, then Prop 8 was a success. Other that, it was a disaster.

Gunk, you are spot on. My kids in school experienced the same. Professionally, the hostility intensified. It's a fact. You really do have to ask, "is this hill worth dying for." Sometimes the answer is yes - but it is rare and must be used judiciously. In the Prop 8 case, it was not a hill worth dying on because the animosity and hardened enemy lines drawn are real, amongst powerful forces. The reality was, the gay marriage issue was a Tsunami that was not going to be stopped and swept the nation. In 2015 the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 and made it the law of the land. It is what it is, like it or not.

The gay issue has been great sifter in the Church in recent years. Prop 8 was only the beginning of that. We've seen members lose their testimony, assuming they ever had one to begin with, over this issue. It's like they've were asleep every time the Plan of Salvation was taught in church, were unaware of both ancient scripture and modern day teachings on the matter, or have never gotten around to reading the Proclamation on the Family. Or perhaps simply decided to let go of the iron rod and take their place in the great and spacious building.



I have both an aunt and a friend who this happened to. My aunt left the Church, walked out on a 25+ year marriage, attempted suicide at least twice, and spends much of her time ranting on Facebook or elsewhere about the Church, the gay issue, or whatever. By their fruits he shall know them indeed. My friend, who I've known for over 30 years, served a mission to Brazil and was always a solid guy. He's a husband and father. I'm not sure what got him off track but he says the gay issue is one of his gripes against the Church. I wonder if he ever really had any understanding of things or was just going through the motions all that time. Those types of members seem to be the most easily swayed to the thinking of the world on the gay issue. They don't understand the Restored Gospel, much less believe in it.



And honestly, who cares if Prop 8 hardened people against the Church? If you're upsetting the kind if people who did get upset, you're probably doing something right. I'm glad the Church has taken such a strong stand on this issue. And it's not the Church's fault that 5 liberal activist judges, with barely hidden contempt for the Constitution, decided to overstep their bounds and overrule the will of the people in most states.

The church actively campaigning may have escalated the issue that homosexuals have against the church but anyone who thinks that they would have left us alone if we hadn't campaigned for prop 8 are naïve at best. The LGBT movement is a 100% war on religion and ours would have not been an exception.

frdbtr wrote:

The church actively campaigning may have escalated the issue that homosexuals have against the church but anyone who thinks that they would have left us alone if we hadn't campaigned for prop 8 are naïve at best. The LGBT movement is a 100% war on religion and ours would have not been an exception.

True, the LBGT community generally is hostile to religion, and Conservative politics - which most Christian religion is. Not always, but mostly.



It's not about being naive, it's not about caving to the LBGT community, nor is it about not having standards. It's about dealing with political realities. The reality is BYU football wanted to get into the Big 12. The LBGT community mobilized against that effort in a big way in response to the public stand the LDS church took in the Prop 8 fight. There are unintended consequences to choices we make. Not being allowed into the Big 12 is one of those unintended consequences. The reality is, football swims in a political world. All sports swim in a political world. BYU and the Church have to navigate in that world. Standards can be maintained. But, why make enemies when you can make friends?

The Church got involved in politics. That was it's mistake. Let's not confuse doctrine with policy. The two are separate. To assume the Church, an earthly organization ran by imperfect individuals, never makes mistakes is extremely naive.



All one has to do is look at the Church's financial history to see all sorts of mistakes.



As for people going inactive because of the Church's policy towards homosexuals, I feel for them. Questioning their testimonies or accusing them of never having one seems awfully judgemental. There are real feelings there and dismissing them is a defensive response, not an empathetic response. We tend to treat those that aren't as active as we expect them to be rather horribly. The initial emotional response is betrayal, so we shun and scorn those struggling with their testimonies. Then 6 months later the "inactive" family ends up on a list, there's an edict at ward council, cookies are baked and rejected, and we wonder why...

Gunk wrote:

The Church got involved in politics. That was it's mistake. Let's not confuse doctrine with policy. The two are separate. To assume the Church, an earthly organization ran by imperfect individuals, never makes mistakes is extremely naive.



All one has to do is look at the Church's financial history to see all sorts of mistakes.



As for people going inactive because of the Church's policy towards homosexuals, I feel for them. Questioning their testimonies or accusing them of never having one seems awfully judgemental. There are real feelings there and dismissing them is a defensive response, not an empathetic response. We tend to treat those that aren't as active as we expect them to be rather horribly. The initial emotional response is betrayal, so we shun and scorn those struggling with their testimonies. Then 6 months later the "inactive" family ends up on a list, there's an edict at ward council, cookies are baked and rejected, and we wonder why...

I have two gay brothers so I'm no stranger to this issue. On an individual basis, I have a lot of sympathy for those in the Church with SSA (one of the hardest trials I imagine) and the utmost respect for those that remain faithful. Generally speaking, I have nothing but contempt for the so called "LGBT agenda."



That said, you can call it "judgemental" or whatever you want but the fact is there are members or former members who have thrown their beliefs out the window and apostatized (my crazy aunt calls it a "faith transition") over a rather ridiculous reason. The common theme seems to be a clear lack of understanding of the Gospel and why homosexual behavior is not a part of that. It seems like many of them failed to learn what they should have and they were easy pickings for the adversary and philosophies of men. Then there are others who, having family members or friends who are gay, have been duped into thinking they had to renounce the Church to be loyal to their family or friends. Reminds me of the scripture "He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."



As for Prop 8, I'll stick with the Bretheren over board posters who care too much what the world thinks.



And as I said before, I'm not convinced the gay issue was as big of an issue for the BIG 12 as some are assuming.

Prop 8 seems like a big mistake, looking back. Very little benefit, huge cost. Church forays into politics don't always turn out well. Neither does confusing Utah culture with LDS Doctrine.

Mars wrote:

Prop 8 seems like a big mistake, looking back. Very little benefit, huge cost. Church forays into politics don't always turn out well. Neither does confusing Utah culture with LDS Doctrine.

What cost? Seriously? Because you think it was a public relations snafu? Those who it upset were the ones the Church shouldn't be trying to please in the first place. And you know full well that the Church only gets involved on certain moral issues when it comes to politics. I'm not sure what you mean about "confusing Utah culture with LDS Doctrine" on this topic.

I read what you all are saying and understand that looking back Prop 8 hurt the Church in many ways. But I am not prepared to say it was a mistake because I don’t know all the reasons God’s servants felt to do what they did. Of course God’s servants make mistakes. There is only one perfect person whoever graced this earth. And perhaps their decision to participate in Prop 8 was an instance in which the Lord let His servants fail, perhaps to learn from it? I don’t know. I believe our participation in Prop 8 does not change the way the forces of a materialistic and secular world treat and view us. They despise our faith, our values and our doctrine. Had we stayed silent on Prop 8, that revilement would not be different. I guess what I’m trying to say is I very much respect your views, I just think we should not label what the brethren collectively do as stupid or a mistake. PS I understand that many of you object to the Church getting involved in politics. Do you mean elections? Almost everything today is politicized in one or more ways. When someone wants to pass a law affecting something of doctrinal import, how can the Church not be involved? The mere teaching of its members to uphold the family will be viewed as negatively by some as Prop 8. Well I’ll get off my soapbox. Thanks for listening.

I would argue that the people Prop 8 hurt the most were Mormons. And I would further argue that the Church costing many of it's own members their faith is a bad thing.



The greatest teaching of the Church is Love, but the greatest motivator of Prop 8 seemed to be Fear. That's my own opinion. I think un-Christlike actions will always result in negative repercussions, and that afterwards, neither those negative actions nor repercussions should be celebrated.



The Church is perfect. Its members, its leaders, and especially its culture is not. Occasionally far from it. As with Race and the Priesthood, this is a message that we must continually re-learn, again and again.

Mars wrote:

I would argue that the people Prop 8 hurt the most were Mormons. And I would further argue that the Church costing many of it's own members their faith is a bad thing.



The greatest teaching of the Church is Love, but the greatest motivator of Prop 8 seemed to be Fear. That's my own opinion. I think un-Christlike actions will always result in negative repercussions, and that afterwards, neither those negative actions nor repercussions should be celebrated.



The Church is perfect. Its members, its leaders, and especially its culture is not. Occasionally far from it. As with Race and the Priesthood, this is a message that we must continually re-learn, again and again.

The Church "costing many of its own members their faith?" What a bunch of hogwash. The responsibility for anyone who's lost their testimony and left the Church because of such a stupid issue is solely on them. There was nothing "Un-Christlike" about Prop 8 and the Church has bent over backwards to reach out to gays. But the stance of most gays is that they want nothing to do with the Church or only on the condition that it changes it's doctrine. As if that's the prerogative of the Bretheren.



Furthermore, if I'm reading between the lines of your post correctly, and the fact that you bring up the oft-used false parallel between the Priesthood ban and homosexuality, I have to wonder if you're one of these delusional types in the Church who thinks there's nothing wrong with homosexual behavior, the Church is mistaken on the issue, and you're just waiting for the Church to come around. And you use misuse the concept of love as a basis for all of it. The spiritually immature often pit love against obedience.