Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

There are some really interesting things brought to light in this article like: BYU was in the PAC10 in the 90's but that deal was tabled because they couldn't find a travel partner. After the 2004 scandals BYU's recruiting pool was cut to a 10th of what it was before. BYU would have probably been in the Big 12 when they wanted to expand the last time if it hadn't been for the LGBT community. Read it, it is a fantastic article.



https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865693183/The-rise-and-fall-An-inside-look-at-the-decline-of-BYUs-marquee-sports-programs.html

This is a revealing but sad article. It is amazing how the LGBT community has risen from being ridiculed to dictating who gets what. I do think BYU should get in a conference but the big boys don't want us for a variety of reasons and most fans don't want the smaller conferences. That leave us in independence which is not working out. I would suggest talking to our old rivals to see about forming up again, but again that is not popular. What is the answer?

nuk13 wrote:

This is a revealing but sad article. It is amazing how the LGBT community has risen from being ridiculed to dictating who gets what. I do think BYU should get in a conference but the big boys don't want us for a variety of reasons and most fans don't want the smaller conferences. That leave us in independence which is not working out. I would suggest talking to our old rivals to see about forming up again, but again that is not popular. What is the answer?

Just one more reason I loathe so many in the so-called "LGBT community." They've proven to be the very bullies they're always whining about. Total lowlifes.



That said, while I would naturally expect that to be a big factor in the liberal PAC-12 not wanting BYU, I am not convinced it was such a big factor in the BIG 12. Them simply not wanting to expand right now seemed to be the driving force. Otherwise they could have easily taken 2 more "politically correct" schools. I still think there's an outside shot of BYU getting an invite whenever the BIG 12 does expand.



I also always wondered what ALUFs think about Utah getting the PAC-12 invite, in part, because of bias against the Church they belong to. My observation has been that it's more comfortable for them to not think about it at all or just believe their 2 BCS wins and academics made them an attractive choice. :roll:



By the way, Doug Robinson wrote the article. Not Dick Harmon.

My bad, the link I clicked on said it was Harmon.

Dave Checketts is a moron if this quote is accurate:



"It feels like the decision to be independent clearly has not worked,” said Dave Checketts, a BYU alumnus and the former general manager of the Utah Jazz and president of the New York Knicks who has maintained close ties with BYU. “It feels like they need a conference, like it’s a necessity. It’s no secret it hurts them in every way. … They thought they would be invited into a conference sooner rather than later when they left the Mountain West. … What are their choices — go back to the Mountain West?”



Hurts BYU in "every way"? That is simply stupid. The only way that it has "hurt" BYU is that in this year of colossal suckage, every game has been on TV. Other than that, we've never been denied a Bowl that we were entitled to. Our Basketball program has actually been treated BETTER by the NCAA in seeding while in the WCC and we no longer have the MWC paying us less money and making stupid decisions that cost us money or micromanaging our program (like they did to BSU where they got to decide what football uniforms the team wore while playing at home) There are many many things that would be better in a P5 conference, but not one single thing would be improved by being in a G5 conference. Not one.

frdbtr wrote:

My bad, the link I clicked on said it was Harmon.

Understandable. At the bottom of the article (I read it entirely - it was good), it says: Contributing: Dick Harmon and Jeff Call. At the top it says: by Doug Robinson. In the "rush-rush" world we live in, minor mistakes are made. Thanks for posting.

Ddawg wrote:

My bad, the link I clicked on said it was Harmon.

Understandable. At the bottom of the article (I read it entirely - it was good), it says: Contributing: Dick Harmon and Jeff Call. At the top it says: by Doug Robinson. In the "rush-rush" world we live in, minor mistakes are made. Thanks for posting.

That's the way I see it and if one of the mods wants to change the title of my thread I would be fine with that.

ABYUFAN wrote:

Dave Checketts is a moron if this quote is accurate:



"It feels like the decision to be independent clearly has not worked,” said Dave Checketts, a BYU alumnus and the former general manager of the Utah Jazz and president of the New York Knicks who has maintained close ties with BYU. “It feels like they need a conference, like it’s a necessity. It’s no secret it hurts them in every way. … They thought they would be invited into a conference sooner rather than later when they left the Mountain West. … What are their choices — go back to the Mountain West?”



Hurts BYU in "every way"? That is simply stupid. The only way that it has "hurt" BYU is that in this year of colossal suckage, every game has been on TV. Other than that, we've never been denied a Bowl that we were entitled to. Our Basketball program has actually been treated BETTER by the NCAA in seeding while in the WCC and we no longer have the MWC paying us less money and making stupid decisions that cost us money or micromanaging our program (like they did to BSU where they got to decide what football uniforms the team wore while playing at home) There are many many things that would be better in a P5 conference, but not one single thing would be improved by being in a G5 conference. Not one.

Agreed. We get diddly squat going back to the MWC. Unless you like living under the rule of Hair Thompson, playing Wyoming every year, hoping for a billionth MWC title (whoopee), and going to the Las Vegas Bowl.



Big 12>Independence>MWC

KingCoug wrote:

Dave Checketts is a moron if this quote is accurate:



"It feels like the decision to be independent clearly has not worked,” said Dave Checketts, a BYU alumnus and the former general manager of the Utah Jazz and president of the New York Knicks who has maintained close ties with BYU. “It feels like they need a conference, like it’s a necessity. It’s no secret it hurts them in every way. … They thought they would be invited into a conference sooner rather than later when they left the Mountain West. … What are their choices — go back to the Mountain West?”



Hurts BYU in "every way"? That is simply stupid. The only way that it has "hurt" BYU is that in this year of colossal suckage, every game has been on TV. Other than that, we've never been denied a Bowl that we were entitled to. Our Basketball program has actually been treated BETTER by the NCAA in seeding while in the WCC and we no longer have the MWC paying us less money and making stupid decisions that cost us money or micromanaging our program (like they did to BSU where they got to decide what football uniforms the team wore while playing at home) There are many many things that would be better in a P5 conference, but not one single thing would be improved by being in a G5 conference. Not one.

Agreed. We get diddly squat going back to the MWC. Unless you like living under the rule of Hair Thompson, playing Wyoming every year, hoping for a billionth MWC title (whoopee), and going to the Las Vegas Bowl.



Big 12>Independence>MWC

Its time for all of us to take a more objective look at things. The questions should be as follows: (1) Is BYU going to get an invite to a P5 conference; (2) If not, do the positives of independence outweigh the negatives; and (3) would a return to a G5 conference be good for BYU?



1. Let's be honest, a P5 invite is not coming. The Big 12 has looked at expansion three times now, and every time has come to the conclusion that the available teams don't give them any more than they have right now. The Big 12 is literally the only P5 option that would even let BYU into the conversation, and they are saying "no".



2. So with that in place, the positives of independence have been money, tv coverage, and a few more nice games against the P5. These are real benefits, and should not be rejected outright. I mean, BYU has a better TV package than the PAC-12 for the most part. And that package has resulted in revenues well above G5 levels. But these positives are starting to fade over time. The negatives are growing: irrelevance, a decided disadvantage in recruiting, front-loaded scheduling that leaves us wounded and out of any conversation by October, no bowl game contracts, and November scheduling that is simply abysmal. Is there anything about being independent that would lead anyone to believe that over time these negatives will be overcome? Honestly, no. And independence was always a reaction to Utah's PAC-12 invitation, not a choice we made. Had Utah not been invited to the PAC-12, we would have stayed in the MW, no question. So while independence has had some upside, that upside appears to be fading. The goal of independence was to get us closer to being a Notre Dame (not that BYU ever thought it could get to that level), but we are now starting to see us fading to being closer to a UMass.



3. Does it then follow that we should go back to a G5 conference? If there was another option, I would say yes. But there is not one. As I have thought about this, more and more, I want BYU to step up and say "We are BYU, this is who we are, and we like who we are. We are no longer going to let our actions be dictated by what Utah does, nor what the current structure of College Football is selling." Why have football if it is going to be irrelevant? I think joining a G5 conference (MW or AAC) makes sense. You complain about playing Wyoming every year? So you would rather play UMass and Liberty yearly? No. We have shown we can still fill a stadium a full 1/3 larger than Utah when we play New Mexico, SDSU, Utah State, Boise State. Yes a few of the games are less attractive, but no less so than the UMass, East Carolina, Portland State, Hawaii portion of this year's schedule, or the McNeese State, Hawaii, New Mexico State, UMass set from 2018.



Maybe another way to talk about it is this way: As an independent, will we ever make in in to the playoff or a New Year's Bowl game? Answer, it is really, really, unlikely. But as a G5, other schools have had this opportunity.



Its time to get back where we need to be.

cougarapologist wrote:

ABYUFAN wrote:

Dave Checketts is a moron if this quote is accurate:



"It feels like the decision to be independent clearly has not worked,” said Dave Checketts, a BYU alumnus and the former general manager of the Utah Jazz and president of the New York Knicks who has maintained close ties with BYU. “It feels like they need a conference, like it’s a necessity. It’s no secret it hurts them in every way. … They thought they would be invited into a conference sooner rather than later when they left the Mountain West. … What are their choices — go back to the Mountain West?”



Hurts BYU in "every way"? That is simply stupid. The only way that it has "hurt" BYU is that in this year of colossal suckage, every game has been on TV. Other than that, we've never been denied a Bowl that we were entitled to. Our Basketball program has actually been treated BETTER by the NCAA in seeding while in the WCC and we no longer have the MWC paying us less money and making stupid decisions that cost us money or micromanaging our program (like they did to BSU where they got to decide what football uniforms the team wore while playing at home) There are many many things that would be better in a P5 conference, but not one single thing would be improved by being in a G5 conference. Not one.

Agreed. We get diddly squat going back to the MWC. Unless you like living under the rule of Hair Thompson, playing Wyoming every year, hoping for a billionth MWC title (whoopee), and going to the Las Vegas Bowl.



Big 12>Independence>MWC

Its time for all of us to take a more objective look at things. The questions should be as follows: (1) Is BYU going to get an invite to a P5 conference; (2) If not, do the positives of independence outweigh the negatives; and (3) would a return to a G5 conference be good for BYU?



1. Let's be honest, a P5 invite is not coming. The Big 12 has looked at expansion three times now, and every time has come to the conclusion that the available teams don't give them any more than they have right now. The Big 12 is literally the only P5 option that would even let BYU into the conversation, and they are saying "no".



2. So with that in place, the positives of independence have been money, tv coverage, and a few more nice games against the P5. These are real benefits, and should not be rejected outright. I mean, BYU has a better TV package than the PAC-12 for the most part. And that package has resulted in revenues well above G5 levels. But these positives are starting to fade over time. The negatives are growing: irrelevance, a decided disadvantage in recruiting, front-loaded scheduling that leaves us wounded and out of any conversation by October, no bowl game contracts, and November scheduling that is simply abysmal. Is there anything about being independent that would lead anyone to believe that over time these negatives will be overcome? Honestly, no. And independence was always a reaction to Utah's PAC-12 invitation, not a choice we made. Had Utah not been invited to the PAC-12, we would have stayed in the MW, no question. So while independence has had some upside, that upside appears to be fading. The goal of independence was to get us closer to being a Notre Dame (not that BYU ever thought it could get to that level), but we are now starting to see us fading to being closer to a UMass.



3. Does it then follow that we should go back to a G5 conference? If there was another option, I would say yes. But there is not one. As I have thought about this, more and more, I want BYU to step up and say "We are BYU, this is who we are, and we like who we are. We are no longer going to let our actions be dictated by what Utah does, nor what the current structure of College Football is selling." Why have football if it is going to be irrelevant? I think joining a G5 conference (MW or AAC) makes sense. You complain about playing Wyoming every year? So you would rather play UMass and Liberty yearly? No. We have shown we can still fill a stadium a full 1/3 larger than Utah when we play New Mexico, SDSU, Utah State, Boise State. Yes a few of the games are less attractive, but no less so than the UMass, East Carolina, Portland State, Hawaii portion of this year's schedule, or the McNeese State, Hawaii, New Mexico State, UMass set from 2018.



Maybe another way to talk about it is this way: As an independent, will we ever make in in to the playoff or a New Year's Bowl game? Answer, it is really, really, unlikely. But as a G5, other schools have had this opportunity.



Its time to get back where we need to be.

Let's look at your negatives.



irrelevance - I have not seen any evidence of irrelevance. BYU has been talked about tons. Even before this year there was talk that BYU could make the playoffs. BYU has had an abysmal year and there is nation talk about how disappointed cougar fans are and how bad the football team has been. If BYU is truly irrelevant there would have been no such talk. As far as this point goes you'll have to explain what you mean more before I can agree on it.



a decided disadvantage in recruiting - against whom? Utah? MWC membership doesn't fix that. Against Utah State, again MWC membership doesn't fix that either. Actually it looks like we are at the same level of recruitment as before, so I'm not sure that I see any evidence that recruiting is either suffering from our current situation or that joining a G5 conference would positively impact it.



front-loaded scheduling that leaves us wounded and out of any conversation by October - I don't agree that our front loaded schedule has the sort of impact that you are discussing here. Fresno State is playing for the MWC championship. What sort of "conversation" have they been part of this year?



no bowl game contracts - this has never hurt us, and actually we make more money and have better exposure and presence in early season appearances than many schools make in their bowl games.



and November scheduling that is simply abysmal - I disagree with you on this point. This year we had Fresno State UNLV, UMASS and Hawaii. joining the MWC would have us have pretty much those same teams in November. Next year we have BSU UMASS NM State and Utah. which is actually a better schedule than we could hope to have in the MWC.



when you say "I want BYU to step up and say "We are BYU, this is who we are, and we like who we are. We are no longer going to let our actions be dictated by what Utah does, nor what the current structure of College Football is selling." I can agree with that - however if BYU joins a conference for the sake of joining the conference they are actually just saying - we are just like any other conference school willing to sell our birthright for a mess of pottage. We'll sell the ability to control our own destiny for the pottage of a potential meaningless "conference championship." (as if anybody even knows who the MWC or AAC conference champion was 3 years ago or even last year)

ABYUFAN wrote:

irrelevance - I have not seen any evidence of irrelevance. BYU has been talked about tons. Even before this year there was talk that BYU could make the playoffs. BYU has had an abysmal year and there is nation talk about how disappointed cougar fans are and how bad the football team has been. If BYU is truly irrelevant there would have been no such talk. As far as this point goes you'll have to explain what you mean more before I can agree on it.



a decided disadvantage in recruiting - against whom? Utah? MWC membership doesn't fix that. Against Utah State, again MWC membership doesn't fix that either. Actually it looks like we are at the same level of recruitment as before, so I'm not sure that I see any evidence that recruiting is either suffering from our current situation or that joining a G5 conference would positively impact it.



front-loaded scheduling that leaves us wounded and out of any conversation by October - I don't agree that our front loaded schedule has the sort of impact that you are discussing here. Fresno State is playing for the MWC championship. What sort of "conversation" have they been part of this year?



no bowl game contracts - this has never hurt us, and actually we make more money and have better exposure and presence in early season appearances than many schools make in their bowl games.



and November scheduling that is simply abysmal - I disagree with you on this point. This year we had Fresno State UNLV, UMASS and Hawaii. joining the MWC would have us have pretty much those same teams in November. Next year we have BSU UMASS NM State and Utah. which is actually a better schedule than we could hope to have in the MWC.



when you say "I want BYU to step up and say "We are BYU, this is who we are, and we like who we are. We are no longer going to let our actions be dictated by what Utah does, nor what the current structure of College Football is selling." I can agree with that - however if BYU joins a conference for the sake of joining the conference they are actually just saying - we are just like any other conference school willing to sell our birthright for a mess of pottage. We'll sell the ability to control our own destiny for the pottage of a potential meaningless "conference championship." (as if anybody even knows who the MWC or AAC conference champion was 3 years ago or even last year)

Great post. I'm praying that BYU stays the indie course if they can't make a P5 conference.

Tell me if I get the math right. A person born in 1994 would have been 18 and a freshman at BYU in 2012, our first year of independence. That individual would never have known about BYU's experience with Hair and the MWC. That person would today be 23 years old. Therefore, I submit that anyone 23 years of age and under not be allowed to comment on Cougar Corner about BYU going back to the MW. Reasoning: 1) During those horrible years of being mistreated and looked down upon, these acne infested pre-adults were more interested in girls than football hence unable to make any rational decision whatsoever and, 2) since arriving at the Y their head has been in the sand about the MW and the thrilling possibility or returning to such glory days. (I was going to say that they have their heads up their butts because that is obviously the orifice from which they are speaking when they spew such BYU/MW dribble. But if I had said it that way, the mods would probably have taken the post down).

BYU should not return to the MWC. But, Fresno St. is ranked this week despite only beating BYU (4-9) by 7 points at home. Why? Because they beat Boise St. and SDSU on the way to play for a conference championship.



BYU would benefit greatly from a conference affiliation. It's not just the conference championships and conference awards - although those do play a role. You have a dozen other schools and their fan bases who follow your team and watch your games because you are a conference foe...and that pull for you to do well in the rankings when you have a good year.



I've said this before, but my preference right now would be part of a western AAC expansion. Let East Coast bias work for us. Still have a national schedule, as part of a conference. BYU, Boise, SDSU, and one other school for football (Air Force? Army?. Those schools plus Gonzaga (and perhaps Saint Mary's) for Olympic sports. Many peer institutions from athletics and academics perspectives. The money would be there for a better TV contract and for quality football and basketball attendance.



Here are a couple of sample football schedules:



2020

SEPTEMBER

at Utah

Michigan St.

Air Force

at UConn



OCTOBER

at SMU

Houston

at Navy

Tulsa



NOVEMBER

Missouri

at Boise St.

San Diego St.

at Stanford



Home: Michigan St., Air Force, Houston, Tulsa, Missouri, San Diego St.

Road: Utah, UConn, SMU, Navy, Boise St., Stanford



2021

SEPTEMBER

Arizona (in Vegas)

Utah

at Air Force

South Florida



OCTOBER

Navy

at Tulsa

at Houston

Virginia



NOVEMBER

SMU

at SDSU

Boise St.

at USC



Home: Utah, South Florida, Navy, Virginia, SMU, Boise St.

Road: Arizona (Vegas), Air Force, Tulsa, Houston, San Diego St., USC



Those are actually some pretty good schedules.

Not worth the loss of money and exposure.

KingCoug wrote:
Just one more reason I loathe so many in the so-called "LGBT community." They've proven to be the very bullies they're always whining about. Total lowlifes.

That's pretty damn Christ-like of you. /s



Until BYU decides to stop being bigoted, they won't make a conference. As it should be.

How is BYU bigoted, in your opinion?

Mars wrote:

How is BYU bigoted, in your opinion?

From firing a BYUi professor for posting her support of LGBT rights to marry, to electrocuting gay men's penises in the 70's. There's a myriad of examples.

UCChris wrote:

How is BYU bigoted, in your opinion?

From firing a BYUi professor for posting her support of LGBT rights to marry, to electrocuting gay men's penises in the 70's. There's a myriad of examples.

this raises a few questions Do you consider BYU and BYUI to be the same school (and why the lowercase I? Idaho is a state, which most people consider to be a proper noun) Also are you certain that she was an actual professor, I recall that she was an adjunct faculty member. Also was she terminated or was her contract expired and not renewed?



and 2 - 50 years old actions, in your mind, are relevant to how an institution is judged today? Got it. Why stop at the 1970s? 1970 is closer in time to 1930 than it is to today let's look how every institution treated people in 1930, and use that to form the basis of our judgment. Also how do you know which part of the guys were subject to electroshock therapy?

ABYUFAN wrote:

Mars wrote:

How is BYU bigoted, in your opinion?

From firing a BYUi professor for posting her support of LGBT rights to marry, to electrocuting gay men's penises in the 70's. There's a myriad of examples.

this raises a few questions Do you consider BYU and BYUI to be the same school (and why the lowercase I? Idaho is a state, which most people consider to be a proper noun) Also are you certain that she was an actual professor, I recall that she was an adjunct faculty member. Also was she terminated or was her contract expired and not renewed?



and 2 - 50 years old actions, in your mind, are relevant to how an institution is judged today? Got it. Why stop at the 1970s? 1970 is closer in time to 1930 than it is to today let's look how every institution treated people in 1930, and use that to form the basis of our judgment. Also how do you know which part of the guys were subject to electroshock therapy?

Sorry, my phone autocorrected it to lowercase, since thats how it usually is in tech these days (iPhone, etc.) I do consider them to be the same since they are both governed by the same body (the 12 head honchos)



She was an adjunct-professor, so I guess we're both right there? And she was terminated.



Here's an article about a gentleman recounting his experience in the "conversion therapy" in the 70's. He explicitly states where the shocks occurred.



https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story%3fid=13240700



I'm college aged and have several friends that have received less than stellar treatment by staff and students at BYU for being gay. The institution as a whole has a very "we have to accept gays, but we really wish we didn't" vibe to it.



I agree that a 50 year old example isn't perfect, but it does show the beginning of a anti-LGBT culture that I experienced first hand while living in BYU housing.

UCChris wrote:

Just one more reason I loathe so many in the so-called "LGBT community." They've proven to be the very bullies they're always whining about. Total lowlifes.

That's pretty damn Christ-like of you. /s



Until BYU decides to stop being bigoted, they won't make a conference. As it should be.

In my dictionary "bigotry" is defined as being intolerant of a different opinion. Here you feel that "BYU's position" cannot be tolerated. Got it.