Talent gap is growing - how can we win?

Worst fears being realized. Utah is bigger, stronger, faster. They look like a P5 team. We don't.

Only way to win is to play perfectly, and we don't.

I've always believed (and still do) that you can beat superior talent as long as A) the talent margin is not too wide (with Utah it's not, they're not Alabama) and B) you have superior coaching and scheme.



In short, whatever gap in talent isn't the problem. It's the gap in coaching.

KingCoug wrote:

I've always believed (and still do) that you can beat superior talent as long as A) the talent margin is not too wide (with Utah it's not, they're not Alabama) and B) you have superior coaching and scheme.



In short, whatever gap in talent isn't the problem. It's the gap in coaching.

Namely the offensive line and receivers coaching.

frdbtr wrote:

I've always believed (and still do) that you can beat superior talent as long as A) the talent margin is not too wide (with Utah it's not, they're not Alabama) and B) you have superior coaching and scheme.



In short, whatever gap in talent isn't the problem. It's the gap in coaching.

Namely the offensive line and receivers coaching.

Let's not forget who hired those guys in the first place.

Gunk wrote:

KingCoug wrote:

I've always believed (and still do) that you can beat superior talent as long as A) the talent margin is not too wide (with Utah it's not, they're not Alabama) and B) you have superior coaching and scheme.



In short, whatever gap in talent isn't the problem. It's the gap in coaching.

Namely the offensive line and receivers coaching.

Let's not forget who hired those guys in the first place.

I agree. These same guys have to realize the mistake and fix it.

cougarapologist wrote:

Worst fears being realized. Utah is bigger, stronger, faster. They look like a P5 team. We don't.

Only way to win is to play perfectly, and we don't.

Utah's talent doesn't look any different to me than any of their talent they have had in the past as was shown by BYU out gaining them in every game since 2006. Where Utah has the advantage is in coaching as Bronco was consistently out coached by Whittingham in every game they coached against each other. Sitaki hasn't been out coached like Bronco has but he does have a pathetic o-line coach and WRs coach where Utah has a solid coaching staff except in the OC position and we will see if Utah will need another OC at the end of the season. If Whittingham ever leaves Utah then Utah will be in trouble as he is the one who holds the whole staff together.

TheDean wrote:

Worst fears being realized. Utah is bigger, stronger, faster. They look like a P5 team. We don't.

Only way to win is to play perfectly, and we don't.

Utah's talent doesn't look any different to me than any of their talent they have had in the past as was shown by BYU out gaining them in every game since 2006. Where Utah has the advantage is in coaching as Bronco was consistently out coached by Whittingham in every game they coached against each other. Sitaki hasn't been out coached like Bronco has but he does have a pathetic o-line coach and WRs coach where Utah has a solid coaching staff except in the OC position and we will see if Utah will need another OC at the end of the season. If Whittingham ever leaves Utah then Utah will be in trouble as he is the one who holds the whole staff together.

I agree with that last point especially. When Whittingham is gone, I don't think we'll see the same kind of Ute domination.

I heard Gordon Monson just say on the radio he doesn't think BYU will ever beat Utah again. I know I know everyone hates him blah blah blah. But to the point of this thread it's starting to seem that way. Utah tonight on offense looked so much faster more athletic and to me superior to almost every player on BYU'S offensive side of the ball. Utah has always had the athletes on defense but now they are getting them on both sides of the ball. If BYU can't get some more athletes I'm not sure they can win 1 out of 10 games against Utah. Going to the PAC12 has been so beneficial for Utah and going to the BIG12 has done the same for TCU. Not being in a P5 conference, and in more ways then people on here want to hear the honor code are hand cuffing BYU. Neither will change the gap will just keep getting bigger and the losing streak longer. I fear dark days over the next 5-10 years especially if realignment comes and BYU gets passed over again.

a1247 wrote:

I heard Gordon Monson just say on the radio he doesn't think BYU will ever beat Utah again. I know I know everyone hates him blah blah blah. But to the point of this thread it's starting to seem that way. Utah tonight on offense looked so much faster more athletic and to me superior to almost every player on BYU'S offensive side of the ball. Utah has always had the athletes on defense but now they are getting them on both sides of the ball. If BYU can't get some more athletes I'm not sure they can win 1 out of 10 games against Utah. Going to the PAC12 has been so beneficial for Utah and going to the BIG12 has done the same for TCU. Not being in a P5 conference, and in more ways then people on here want to hear the honor code are hand cuffing BYU. Neither will change the gap will just keep getting bigger and the losing streak longer. I fear dark days over the next 5-10 years especially if realignment comes and BYU gets passed over again.

BYU will beat Utah eventually as Utah will get complacent and Whittingham won't be there forever. Independence has helped BYU in the recruiting department. Once Bronco's leftovers are gone, if Sitake keeps getting the good recruiting he has been getting BYU, and if BYU can get a solid a O-line and WRs coach BYU will be fine. Frankly I don't see there being much of a gap between BYU's players and Utah's players. I do see a gap in the coaching however as Utah definitely has the clear edge there as long as Whittingham stays with Utah and BYU fails to improve their staff.

Utah's 2nd rate OC from Eastern Washington ran circles around our good 'ol boy Detmer.



As long as Sitake and Holmoe keep hiring former players with no coaching experience, BYU will never improve regardless of how good of a recruiter Sitake is.

Now that all of you have thought of the glorious past and lamented about the present, how about fixing the future? I went to Wisconsin, the Cougars opponent on Saturday, and that school is a great example of how to fix a broken program.



From 1965 through 1989, the Badgers were just awful and were at the bottom of the Big 10. From 1967 through 1969, under former Badger QB star John Coatta (our poor version of Sitaki and Dettmer), the Badgers had a 23 game winless streak. In 1987 through 1989 under coach Don Morton, Wisconsin was 3-8, 1-10 and 2-9 and recruiting 3rd class athletes that couldn't succeed at the Big10 level. Finally, season ticket holders went on strike and tens of thousands (including me) protested by failing to renew; the final game of the 1989 season against rival Minnesota had 29,000 tickets sold and fewer people in the stands. The given excuse was that the Badgers couldn't succeed because Wisconsin (along with Northwestern and Purdue) has higher academic admission standards than the rest of the Big10 and other major conferences so we couldn't recruit athletes to succeed. Like BYU alums blaming the Honor Code.



The change has to come from the top. Wisconsin's trustees hired Donna Shalala to be University President. She was committed to upgrading the entire athletic program including football. She realized a successful athletic program means recruiting more top students (look what basketball has done for Gonzaga University academically), and greatly increased alumni contributions. That meant spending money to significantly increase coaches salaries and improve facilities. It was time to start over. She began to clean house and hired Pat Richter, a no nonsense Badger former All-American and then a successful business executive as the new Athletic Director.



The Trustees of BYU similarly need to make the decision whether they want BYU to be a P-5 level football program or not. If so, that means significantly increasing coaches salaries. It also means the Trustees need to change the BYU policy that the head coaches of the football and basketball programs have to be LDS. That's an extremely small pool for football. The Cougars are not going to get Andy Reid to leave the Kansas City Chiefs or Kyle Whittingham to leave Utah. Unlikely to get Darrell Bevel, offensive coordinator of the Seahawks, to leave the NFL since he's going to be a head coach one day. Probably can't get Brian Billick back into coaching at the college level. The Cougars could try to get Mike Leach from Washington State or Ed Niumatalolo from Navy. Unfortunately there aren't many other LDS coaches out there even at the co-ordinator level. If BYU wants to have a successful football program, the Trustees need to provide the flexibility to get a non-LDS head coach. Some Cougar fans like to think of BYU as the LDS Notre Dame. Well, 2 of ND's 3 greatest coaches (other than Frank Leahy) were not Catholic when ND hired them: Knute Rockne was Lutheran (but converted to Catholic after 7 years at ND) and Ara Parseghian was a devout Presbyterian. Each was an outstanding and devout person. I don't think hiring either of them compromised Notre Dame's Catholic mission. The BYU coach must be a religious, devout person, but maybe not LDS. Notre Dame's hiring of Knute Rockne and Ara Parseghian is an example of a comparable religious affiliated university that has successfully gone outside of its faith to hire a successful coach without hurting its faith mission. The Trustees' choice may be to have failure with the current system or go outside the faith to be successful.



Richter realized the key was to hire a head coach with the street cred to get outstanding assistant coaches which in turn would improve recruiting and the quality of coaching those players would receive. Richter hired Barry Alvarez, then the defensive co-ordinator at Notre Dame. Barry brought in Dan McCarney as defensive coordinator (he later became head coach at Iowa State and def co-ordiantor at Florida) and numerous other outstanding assistant who could teach football and recruit. In Barry's first season Wisconsin was 1-10 (with the Morton's recruited players). But recruiting began to improve and by his 3rd season, the Badgers were 5-6, beat 12th ranked Ohio State and lost several very close including a loss at Iowa by 1 point. In Barry's 4th season the Badgers went 10-1-1, beat Michigan, tied Ohio State and won the Rose Bowl over UCLA. Wisconsin has been pretty successful ever since.



The Badgers haven't recruited 5 star recruits either. Their recruiting class every year is between 5th and 7th best in the Big10 according to the recruiting services. But they fit the Wisconsin system, are good students (Wisconsin is 3rd in the nation over the last 5 years in academic progress behind Northwestern and Duke) and make the program successful. Wisconsin built a great tradition of walk-ons being successful from Pro-Bowl guard Joe Panos from the 1993 team to JJ Watt to this years pre-season All-American tight end Troy Fumagali. Wisconsin now has its tradition of great, huge linemen and running backs just as BYU has its tradition of great QBs. If TCU can recruit quality athletes, so can BYU under the right coaches.



BYU needs to start over. That means the (1) the Trustees deciding if they want to make the changes required for BYU football to be a P-5 level program, (2) hiring a new head coach who can bring in quality assistants to coach and recruit, and (3) fans having the patience to realize the turnaround will take 3 or 4 seasons for the new recruits to come in and turn the program around.



There's nothing wrong if BYU choses to be a mid-major program at the MAC and Mountain West level. But it should be a conscious choice and not due to failure to commit to an unrealistic fantasy.

I'm not ready to fire Holmoe or Sitake. Detmer, Cahoon, and Mahe on the other hand...



BYU needs to be willing to write a blank check for talented assistant coaches. I don't care if they played at BYU or if they are LDS. I just want proven success at the I-A level. Guys like Holliday at WR Coach, Grimes at OL, etc.

Letting Holliday go was a big mistake by Sitake. He was starting to get stronger, better play from the receivers, he was loyal, and had some real leadership. I hated to see him go ... and time has proven that it was a mistake to lose him.

mtnradio wrote:

Letting Holliday go was a big mistake by Sitake. He was starting to get stronger, better play from the receivers, he was loyal, and had some real leadership. I hated to see him go ... and time has proven that it was a mistake to lose him.

Huge mistake... Sad that he wanted to stick around as well. Guy make a huge difference IMHO.



My brother and I made a similar observation last night (weren't sitting by each other, just talked after the game). The receivers were getting warmed up and they looked like they were just clowning. One handed catches, throwing stuff between their legs and around the back. It was like watching the Harlem globetrotters.

I'm not on the fire Detmer bandwagon, yet. The problem is with the receivers and Offensive line. Both of those coaches are retreads that failed the first time around and are failing again.

I think either (1) Ed Lamb needs to start taking on a bigger role in this "mentoring" he was supposed to be providing Detmer, or (2) Lamb needs to go hands-off completely to see if Detmer is just being stifled.

Woody3715 wrote:

(3) fans having the patience to realize the turnaround will take 3 or 4 seasons for the new recruits to come in and turn the program around.

Bingo. Excellent post. This is the fact some fail to realize. Turning a college football program around takes time - recruiting time. There are no shortcuts. I would predict 3-5 years to see consistent, positive results. Meanwhile, Utah keeps improving. I think Tom Holmoe scheduled an overly ambitious schedule this year. It has exposed the deep weakness in the Y's program. The Y is not as good as the overly-optimistic fans think, and want.

if you think that there is not a significant difference between the players that Utah and BYU field from a physical standpoint, you were not watching the same game as I was last Saturday night. BYU wideouts are tiny and slow, smaller and slower than the Utah DBs. For proof, look at YAC by BYU receivers, while I've been unable to find the stats, my anecdotal complication had it at just a few. If they were lucky to catch a ball, they were tackled immediately.



Contrast this with the matchup the other way. Utah receivers against tiny BYU DBs. Big receivers, faster than the DBs, getting open and then breaking tackles for extra yardage.



Defensive line is another spot where the distinction was quite noticable. Utah DBs are prototypical high-caliber guys. Athletic, fast, and can jump in addition to being 270-290. BYU D-line are all 300 pounders with a significant lack of speed. See how many times Utah batted balls at the line of scrimmage and BYU simply did not.



Just two examples of the gap.



Love the analysis of the Wisconsin program as a blueprint. I do wish the Trustees would set out a clear vision for football. If it is P5 inclusion, then play at a P5 level, eliminate the LDS requirement for head coach (retaining that any coach has to agree to uphold the Honor Code), and spend the money.



If that is not the priority (and I am not sure it should be) then just acknowledge it, get back into the MWC and lets enjoy football at BYU for what it is.

I don't know if it's talent or coaching, but what I noticed most was what was going on in the trenches. When Utah wanted to pass, they had all day to do it. When they wanted to run their zone game, we weren't able to defeat enough blocks to blow things up on a consistent basis. Our o-line wasn't nearly as effective. It may be hard-to-impossible for us to get the top-shelf athletes at WR/RB/DB like you see at the big name programs, but you can't tell me we can't find enough corn-fed beef to reliably plow ahead for a 1st down on 3rd and 2. D-line is a little trickier, but we should at least be able to plug anything through the line and force things outside where our LBs can get some tackles for loss. Start winning those battles, and everything else will automatically get better.

redneckjedi wrote:

I don't know if it's talent or coaching, but what I noticed most was what was going on in the trenches. When Utah wanted to pass, they had all day to do it. When they wanted to run their zone game, we weren't able to defeat enough blocks to blow things up on a consistent basis. Our o-line wasn't nearly as effective. It may be hard-to-impossible for us to get the top-shelf athletes at WR/RB/DB like you see at the big name programs, but you can't tell me we can't find enough corn-fed beef to reliably plow ahead for a 1st down on 3rd and 2. D-line is a little trickier, but we should at least be able to plug anything through the line and force things outside where our LBs can get some tackles for loss. Start winning those battles, and everything else will automatically get better.

definitely the biggest difference between the 2 teams was in the trenches.