Rose: realigning expectations

As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

And I'm okay with that.

If we would always win teams like Pepperdine, San Diego, and UVU but always lose to Saint Mary's and Gonzaga, I would be okay! All I want is some consistency. I think the "live or die by the 3" offense that BYU has going is far less "cool" than some people think. I hate it. If Rose is going to teach a "live or die by the 3" offense, I don't want him as coach. If he can start teaching some defense and keep BYU third in the WCC then he'll be the Bronco of basketball. Which is boring, but solid.

UCChris wrote:
If we would always win teams like Pepperdine, San Diego, and UVU but always lose to Saint Mary's and Gonzaga, I would be okay! All I want is some consistency. I think the "live or die by the 3" offense that BYU has going is far less "cool" than some people think. I hate it. If Rose is going to teach a "live or die by the 3" offense, I don't want him as coach. If he can start teaching some defense and keep BYU third in the WCC then he'll be the Bronco of basketball. Which is boring, but solid.

It's kind of funny that you say that because it's somewhat the opposite of being the Bronco of basketball.



Bronco brought in good BYU fit guys, who were not the flashy talented guys, but demanded perfect execution and scheme to make up for lack of talent. He emphasized solid defense and demanded accountability. He never lost the games that he shouldn't lose but only rarely won the games he should lose.



Rose brings in flashy talented guys but lets them get away with undisciplined play and wild, church-hero-ball. He emphasis that his players always have the greenlight to shoot and defense is an after thought, if thought of at all. He will beat a Gonzaga every year, but will drop 2 or 3 sub 150 RPI teams every single year.



Opposite problems, but with very similar results. BYU sports in a rut.

Rose is great. He's arguably the best coach BYU has ever head. That said, people can still find themselves in a rut.



I'll draw upon my own professional experience. When starting a new gig, I attack it hard. I put a lot of energy and effort into it. The results, follow. I've noticed, though, after a few years once the routine starts to settle in the foot comes off the gas a bit. Occasionally, a big project or something will come up and I'll hit it with all the energy as before. I think this is a fairly common phenomenon, one that I feel Rose may find himself in.



We're not seeing the same Rose we saw in the first half of his career.



There are a bunch of excuses as to why we're slipping - different conference, change in mission age, lack of a bench, etc. People who are comfortable, people who have settled, lean on the excuses. They are valid excuses, and past success provides a valid defense. I feel like Rose/BYU is leaning on excuses.



There were plenty of excuses when Rose started - limited recruiting pool, the HC, a tough conference, teams that are familiar with BYU, etc. But when he started, we never heard him excuse his performance. Quite the opposite actually. The excuses were challenges to overcome, which he met head on.



As much as it pains me, I think it may be time for Rose and BYU to part ways.

What I realized was if you take out the Jimmer years then this year was fairly consistent with what Dave Rose will normally bring you.

Other than even before the Jimmer years, Rose was winning the MWC.

UCChris wrote:
If we would always win teams like Pepperdine, San Diego, and UVU but always lose to Saint Mary's and Gonzaga, I would be okay! All I want is some consistency. I think the "live or die by the 3" offense that BYU has going is far less "cool" than some people think. I hate it. If Rose is going to teach a "live or die by the 3" offense, I don't want him as coach. If he can start teaching some defense and keep BYU third in the WCC then he'll be the Bronco of basketball. Which is boring, but solid.

For the most part I agree. I don't want to always lose to any school. I fully agree with the "live or die by the 3" offense being less cool. That is where there is little to no consistency. If 3s are hitting we win. Too often they aren't but they keep hopping they will until the clock runs out. I feel we need more of a whole game approach. I hope Rose can do that. He has been one of, if not the best coach but, there needs to be improvement. I could live without the ncaa but losing the first game of the nit leaves a lot to be desired.

hawkwing wrote:
As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

I completely disagree with this. At one point Rose made the NCAA tourney 6 times in a row. Jimmer was not around for 6 seasons. In fact, Jimmer really only started his last two seasons; his sophomore season he didn't really start games until late into the season. Taking out Jimmer's upperclassmen seasons, Rose has averaged 24.3 wins and made the NCAA tourney 6 out of 10 times (overall he's averaged 25.4 wins and 8/12 tourney appearances).



I know we're not Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA. I know we're a mid-major in basketball. But when I look at Gonzaga, Wichita St. and Butler I think why can't we do that? Is it asking too much to be one of the best mid-majors?



I am NOT ok with a regular NIT appearance and an occasional one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect BYU basketball to not miss the NCAA tournament in consecutive seasons.

byufan4ever wrote:

As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

I completely disagree with this. At one point Rose made the NCAA tourney 6 times in a row. Jimmer was not around for 6 seasons. In fact, Jimmer really only started his last two seasons; his sophomore season he didn't really start games until late into the season. Taking out Jimmer's upperclassmen seasons, Rose has averaged 24.3 wins and made the NCAA tourney 6 out of 10 times (overall he's averaged 25.4 wins and 8/12 tourney appearances).



I know we're not Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA. I know we're a mid-major in basketball. But when I look at Gonzaga, Wichita St. and Butler I think why can't we do that? Is it asking too much to be one of the best mid-majors?



I am NOT ok with a regular NIT appearance and an occasional one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect BYU basketball to not miss the NCAA tournament in consecutive seasons.

the transfers out of the program have hurt the depth a lot. Guinn and Beo were supposed to be walkons and Leifson wouldn't have been here at all had eveyrone stayed. Every team needs role players. What I don't agree with is the idea that Rose pushed them all out. That just isn't true. Neilson is the only one that fits that category and for good reason. You only have to read Neilson's own words at the time to understand it. The team Neilson played on at BYU was extremely thin on big men and he wanted to play a soft Euro big style where he played away from the basket and shot a lot of threes. The coaches needed him to develop an inside game, which he refused to do. So he was cut loose. He has since changed his game probably because of the shock of the scholarship loss at BYU and has done at UVU exactly what Coach Pope was trying to get him to do at BYU. Now he's a much better player. The others left on their own because they didn't want to play second fiddle to the guys coming back from missions. Chatman was probably an exception to that with the law school situation.

It's also kind of funny that Duke only won one game. With Frank Jackson playing for BYU this year I think we have an excellent shot at winning one NCAA game too. Of course he probably would have been on a mission this year had he signed with us.

BlueK wrote:
It's also kind of funny that Duke only won one game. With Frank Jackson playing for BYU this year I think we have an excellent shot at winning one NCAA game too. Of course he probably would have been on a mission this year had he signed with us.

I'll laugh with you on the Duke loss. Jackson going on a mission and coming back to BYU probably would have improved his life and helped BYU.



Some of the fellows who left could have helped us this year.

BlueK wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

I completely disagree with this. At one point Rose made the NCAA tourney 6 times in a row. Jimmer was not around for 6 seasons. In fact, Jimmer really only started his last two seasons; his sophomore season he didn't really start games until late into the season. Taking out Jimmer's upperclassmen seasons, Rose has averaged 24.3 wins and made the NCAA tourney 6 out of 10 times (overall he's averaged 25.4 wins and 8/12 tourney appearances).



I know we're not Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA. I know we're a mid-major in basketball. But when I look at Gonzaga, Wichita St. and Butler I think why can't we do that? Is it asking too much to be one of the best mid-majors?



I am NOT ok with a regular NIT appearance and an occasional one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect BYU basketball to not miss the NCAA tournament in consecutive seasons.

the transfers out of the program have hurt the depth a lot. Guinn and Beo were supposed to be walkons and Leifson wouldn't have been here at all had eveyrone stayed. Every team needs role players. What I don't agree with is the idea that Rose pushed them all out. That just isn't true. Neilson is the only one that fits that category and for good reason. You only have to read Neilson's own words at the time to understand it. The team Neilson played on at BYU was extremely thin on big men and he wanted to play a soft Euro big style where he played away from the basket and shot a lot of threes. The coaches needed him to develop an inside game, which he refused to do. So he was cut loose. He has since changed his game probably because of the shock of the scholarship loss at BYU and has done at UVU exactly what Coach Pope was trying to get him to do at BYU. Now he's a much better player. The others left on their own because they didn't want to play second fiddle to the guys coming back from missions. Chatman was probably an exception to that with the law school situation.

Rose may not have pushed them all out but to believe that he could not have done a better job at keeping them is extremely naïve. If I'm an AD at any school and see a ton of transfers out I'm extremely worried. It says a lot about the culture and environment and expectations. Rose needs to tell these bench players that the LP3 are not a lock and that they can spell them and earn more PT by playing good defense and having a good shot selection.



And just saying, weren't you the one at the beginning of the season saying that this was our deepest team ever and that we would make the tournament for sure?



The one thing Rose cannot control is having 3 players go down injured. That's the only argument that even comes close to convincing me to give Rose a bit of a pass on this season. Not the transfers (that works against Rose). Not Jimmer. It's not Jimmer's fault. Rose got to the NCAA tournament before and after Jimmer, and with less talent than this year's team.

This year was a huge disappointment for sure but to say that this year is Rose's ceiling is a sour grapes argument. This is probably Rose's most disappointing season because of the potential of the team and the underachievement of the team. If we underachieve next year, then we can start calling for Rose to be replaced.

frdbtr wrote:
This year was a huge disappointment for sure but to say that this year is Rose's ceiling is a sour grapes argument. This is probably Rose's most disappointing season because of the potential of the team and the underachievement of the team. If we underachieve next year, then we can start calling for Rose to be replaced.

My issue is that I also believe that we underachieved last season. We had the all-time Triple Double leader plus BYU's career scoring leader, two of the greatest players that BYU has ever had, on the same team, and we failed to make the NCAA tourney. In my books we've already had 2 straight disappointing seasons...

byufan4ever wrote:

This year was a huge disappointment for sure but to say that this year is Rose's ceiling is a sour grapes argument. This is probably Rose's most disappointing season because of the potential of the team and the underachievement of the team. If we underachieve next year, then we can start calling for Rose to be replaced.

My issue is that I also believe that we underachieved last season. We had the all-time Triple Double leader plus BYU's career scoring leader, two of the greatest players that BYU has ever had, on the same team, and we failed to make the NCAA tourney. In my books we've already had 2 straight disappointing seasons...

Tyler Haws actually wasn't on last year's team. But I can agree with you that this year's result isn't what we want. We can trace the reasons, from injuries that really hurt (Bryant before the season, Davis a few games into it, Rose later, etc.), transfers, and all that. But yes, Rose is the coach and is ultimately responsible for fixing it and getting it back to the level we think we should be at. Next year becomes really important for the program so Coach Rose doesn't end up going the way of Steve Cleveland.

The team hasn't played defense worth crap since Jimmer left which has also been a major frustration for me. There is a lot to fix with this program. Rose is going to have to figure out how to fix it or he will be fired even though I think he has been a very good coach.

Gunk wrote:
Rose is great. He's arguably the best coach BYU has ever head. That said, people can still find themselves in a rut.



I'll draw upon my own professional experience. When starting a new gig, I attack it hard. I put a lot of energy and effort into it. The results, follow. I've noticed, though, after a few years once the routine starts to settle in the foot comes off the gas a bit. Occasionally, a big project or something will come up and I'll hit it with all the energy as before. I think this is a fairly common phenomenon, one that I feel Rose may find himself in.



We're not seeing the same Rose we saw in the first half of his career.



There are a bunch of excuses as to why we're slipping - different conference, change in mission age, lack of a bench, etc. People who are comfortable, people who have settled, lean on the excuses. They are valid excuses, and past success provides a valid defense. I feel like Rose/BYU is leaning on excuses.



There were plenty of excuses when Rose started - limited recruiting pool, the HC, a tough conference, teams that are familiar with BYU, etc. But when he started, we never heard him excuse his performance. Quite the opposite actually. The excuses were challenges to overcome, which he met head on.



As much as it pains me, I think it may be time for Rose and BYU to part ways.

There was that whole cancer thing also, and his quality assistants getting hired to other programs.

byufan4ever wrote:

byufan4ever wrote:

As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

I completely disagree with this. At one point Rose made the NCAA tourney 6 times in a row. Jimmer was not around for 6 seasons. In fact, Jimmer really only started his last two seasons; his sophomore season he didn't really start games until late into the season. Taking out Jimmer's upperclassmen seasons, Rose has averaged 24.3 wins and made the NCAA tourney 6 out of 10 times (overall he's averaged 25.4 wins and 8/12 tourney appearances).



I know we're not Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA. I know we're a mid-major in basketball. But when I look at Gonzaga, Wichita St. and Butler I think why can't we do that? Is it asking too much to be one of the best mid-majors?



I am NOT ok with a regular NIT appearance and an occasional one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect BYU basketball to not miss the NCAA tournament in consecutive seasons.

the transfers out of the program have hurt the depth a lot. Guinn and Beo were supposed to be walkons and Leifson wouldn't have been here at all had eveyrone stayed. Every team needs role players. What I don't agree with is the idea that Rose pushed them all out. That just isn't true. Neilson is the only one that fits that category and for good reason. You only have to read Neilson's own words at the time to understand it. The team Neilson played on at BYU was extremely thin on big men and he wanted to play a soft Euro big style where he played away from the basket and shot a lot of threes. The coaches needed him to develop an inside game, which he refused to do. So he was cut loose. He has since changed his game probably because of the shock of the scholarship loss at BYU and has done at UVU exactly what Coach Pope was trying to get him to do at BYU. Now he's a much better player. The others left on their own because they didn't want to play second fiddle to the guys coming back from missions. Chatman was probably an exception to that with the law school situation.

Rose may not have pushed them all out but to believe that he could not have done a better job at keeping them is extremely naïve. If I'm an AD at any school and see a ton of transfers out I'm extremely worried.

So if you were a 19-20 year old kid you would hang around hoping that you could *maybe* play 5 minutes a game, when 15 minutes down the road you are promised starters minutes at a 4 year university under a legit D-1 coach? And most of your friends are coming to? And you don't even need to move if you don't want to?



You're being silly if you think that Rose could have done anything to prevent this. Absolutely silly.

Brayden Green wrote:

BlueK wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
As I've thought about it I've realized my expectations for Dave Rose have been out of alignment with reality. Colored by the false Jimmer positives. In reality Dave Rose is a 20-22 wins a season, NIT caliber coach, with the occasional 1 and done in the NCAA tourney.

I completely disagree with this. At one point Rose made the NCAA tourney 6 times in a row. Jimmer was not around for 6 seasons. In fact, Jimmer really only started his last two seasons; his sophomore season he didn't really start games until late into the season. Taking out Jimmer's upperclassmen seasons, Rose has averaged 24.3 wins and made the NCAA tourney 6 out of 10 times (overall he's averaged 25.4 wins and 8/12 tourney appearances).



I know we're not Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA. I know we're a mid-major in basketball. But when I look at Gonzaga, Wichita St. and Butler I think why can't we do that? Is it asking too much to be one of the best mid-majors?



I am NOT ok with a regular NIT appearance and an occasional one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect BYU basketball to not miss the NCAA tournament in consecutive seasons.

the transfers out of the program have hurt the depth a lot. Guinn and Beo were supposed to be walkons and Leifson wouldn't have been here at all had eveyrone stayed. Every team needs role players. What I don't agree with is the idea that Rose pushed them all out. That just isn't true. Neilson is the only one that fits that category and for good reason. You only have to read Neilson's own words at the time to understand it. The team Neilson played on at BYU was extremely thin on big men and he wanted to play a soft Euro big style where he played away from the basket and shot a lot of threes. The coaches needed him to develop an inside game, which he refused to do. So he was cut loose. He has since changed his game probably because of the shock of the scholarship loss at BYU and has done at UVU exactly what Coach Pope was trying to get him to do at BYU. Now he's a much better player. The others left on their own because they didn't want to play second fiddle to the guys coming back from missions. Chatman was probably an exception to that with the law school situation.

Rose may not have pushed them all out but to believe that he could not have done a better job at keeping them is extremely naïve. If I'm an AD at any school and see a ton of transfers out I'm extremely worried.

So if you were a 19-20 year old kid you would hang around hoping that you could *maybe* play 5 minutes a game, when 15 minutes down the road you are promised starters minutes at a 4 year university under a legit D-1 coach? And most of your friends are coming to? And you don't even need to move if you don't want to?



You're being silly if you think that Rose could have done anything to prevent this. Absolutely silly.

:lol: Go back and read my post. You didn't quote my entire comment. Yep, you're right, Rose's ability to keep players in the program is about as good as his ability to teach defense or run an offense...