history

Stan Watts is a Hall of Famer. But take a look at this stretch he had during his career at BYU. Times have changed. I don't see how any coach would survive this string of seasons in our era. Maybe this will put things into a little more perspective.



1958: 13-13

1959: 15-11

1960: 8-17

1961: 15-11

1962: 10-16

1963: 12-14

1964: 13-12



Then again:

1967: 14-10

1968: 13-12

1969: 16-12

1970: 8-18



At most schools even today, even with 68 teams, going to the NCAA tournament is the nice exception and not the rule. It certainly was that way at BYU before Coach Rose. And actually, not even that, but even just having a winning season was the nice exception, even at BYU, and even with a Hall of Fame coach. But over the last several years something that is actually a good accomplishment has been made to look commonplace, and then soon those become the bare minimums with the fans. That said, I still think our future with these players is very bright.

Let's settle for good not great because our past has been mediocre.



If the football team won less than 8 games two seasons in a row the fans would be up in arms.



Sometimes it takes one coach to get the team from A to B, another to get it to C and yet another to get it to D. Some can't do the A to D.



Rose is definitely not a bad coach. I accept that BYU will probably never have a tier 1 or 5 star coach. But I have been left wanting in recent seasons.



Thank you for the history lesson. Thank you to the great coaches who have paved the way to get BYU hoops to where it is today.



I like to win. I like to win conferences and tournament games.

byufan4ever wrote:
Let's settle for good not great because our past has been mediocre.



If the football team won less than 8 games two seasons in a row the fans would be up in arms.



Sometimes it takes one coach to get the team from A to B, another to get it to C and yet another to get it to D. Some can't do the A to D.



Rose is definitely not a bad coach. I accept that BYU will probably never have a tier 1 or 5 star coach. But I have been left wanting in recent seasons.



Thank you for the history lesson. Thank you to the great coaches who have paved the way to get BYU hoops to where it is today.



I like to win. I like to win conferences and tournament games.

I want great. Coach Rose wants great. But high hopes and high minimum standards are different things. It's not wise to fire a coach who has been way above any level our program has ever been before him because it's unlikely there are many out there who would do a lot better. You really don't do it when his best recruiting classes on paper have barely gotten started playing for us. Let's see where we're at in 2-3 years. I'm pretty sure we'll be better than right now once these freshmen and sophomores have more experience.

For the record, I feel differently about Rose than I did about Coach Cleveland. Coach Cleveland did some nice things. Coach Rose has been better. But I don't think realistically there are many, if any, levels above this as far as coaches BYU can get. But w'e're also at the very beginning of the best string of recruiting classes here in the last 30 years. Let's see how this team does as the season progresses and then next year. I think we're going to like what happens.

How much was Stan Watts being paid? How much were tickets to the games? You can even control for inflation.

Coach Rose isn't the same coach he was before his cancer. He's discovered there are certain things in life more important than coaching basketball. Good for him.



It means his ceiling is 2nd round NCAA tournament and average will be late round NIT exits.



We just have to decide if we're okay with that or want something else.

Watts had a team that won the NIT back when it was a prestigious tournament. I think 3 of those players went pro albeit to the then new ABA. I believe Jim Eakins played for the Lakers after a career in the ABA.

nuk13 wrote:
Watts had a team that won the NIT back when it was a prestigious tournament. I think 3 of those players went pro albeit to the then new ABA. I believe Jim Eakins played for the Lakers after a career in the ABA.

That's true. None of that would matter today. Give the real "Coach K" at Duke two bad years after all he has done and the fans there would want him out. It's just the way things work today.

snoscythe wrote:
How much was Stan Watts being paid? How much were tickets to the games? You can even control for inflation.

Not sure how this is relevant.



But there is a real thing called diminishing marginal returns. It's much harder to go from making the NCAA tournament every year to making the sweet 16 every year and then making the final four every year. Rose has taken basketball to a higher level than it has ever been. Is an even higher level possible? Yes, but is it really that much more possible with a different coach than it would be for him? Doubtful. And the drop down to a lower level (to BYU historical norms) is probably more likely. My argument is about risk and reward. Firing a coach that has been more successful than what we have ever seen at the school is far riskier than firing a coach who is underperforming history (like Gary Crowton).

hawkwing wrote:
Coach Rose isn't the same coach he was before his cancer. He's discovered there are certain things in life more important than coaching basketball. Good for him.



It means his ceiling is 2nd round NCAA tournament and average will be late round NIT exits.



We just have to decide if we're okay with that or want something else.

He got cancer two years before the sweet 16 run with Jimmer.



And how many coaches at BYU had a higher ceiling in the NCAA tournament? Frank Arnold got there one time. But we ran him out of town. And he had actual bad years before that and after that, unlike Rose.



Ladell Andersen only won a single WAC tournament GAME (not tournament -- GAME) in his six years despite almost always finishing in the top 2-3 in the conference . He was 1-6 in WAC tournament games in six years. Five first round exits, and I'm pretty sure every single one of those was to a lower seeded team. He even lost to last place Air Force in the first round on his own home floor one year.



Steve Cleveland brought the program back from the Abyss but couldn't win a single NCAA game. At least Rose changed that.



Our history gives us no reason to believe it would be so easy to suddenly be making sweet 16s every year. We have some really promising players coming in to the program. What happens when coaches get fired? Players transfer. There is no guarantee it would get even slightly better, and a much bigger risk it would implode. It's not like firing a coach like Crowton who couldn't even win half his games three years in a row. Seriously, I think this is insane to even be talking about right now.

BlueK wrote:

How much was Stan Watts being paid? How much were tickets to the games? You can even control for inflation.

Not sure how this is relevant.

Different times/environment = Different expectations

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:
How much was Stan Watts being paid? How much were tickets to the games? You can even control for inflation.

Not sure how this is relevant.

Different times/environment = Different expectations

I'm pretty sure I said that.



The difference is enormous though. I'm having a hard time overlooking that.

We've gotten used to the level of success Rose brought and want/expect more. People are rarely okay with plateauing and we all have short memories. And, in this day in age of constant comparison and envy, it's hard not to feel like we "deserve" what others have.



While I think Rose's battle with cancer may have affected his intensity, I think the biggest culprits for the drop in success are Jimmer and Rice leaving.



Jimmer made it okay to hog the ball, take bad shots, and slack on defense. Current players all watched him do it and saw all the fans go bonkers over it.



I know Rice wasn't over the defense, but for whatever reason the defense has dropped off since he left. BYU's defensive stats took a nose dive.

Pope was a loss too.

Gunk wrote:
We've gotten used to the level of success Rose brought and want/expect more. People are rarely okay with plateauing and we all have short memories. And, in this day in age of constant comparison and envy, it's hard not to feel like we "deserve" what others have.



While I think Rose's battle with cancer may have affected his intensity, I think the biggest culprits for the drop in success are Jimmer and Rice leaving.



Jimmer made it okay to hog the ball, take bad shots, and slack on defense. Current players all watched him do it and saw all the fans go bonkers over it.



I know Rice wasn't over the defense, but for whatever reason the defense has dropped off since he left. BYU's defensive stats took a nose dive.

I think the biggest culprit was a couple of bad recruiting classes in a row right before Jimmer was done. That's on him obviously. But he made up for it starting in 2013. It's just that with missions it takes 3 years to get something out of a recruiting class here.

Jimmer made it okay to hog the ball, take bad shots, and slack on defense. Current players all watched him do it and saw all the fans go bonkers over it.



I know Rice wasn't over the defense, but for whatever reason the defense has dropped off since he left. BYU's defensive stats took a nose dive.[/quote]



I agree Gunk. Last year Fisher would bomb 3s all the time and Emery would too. When they were falling BYU could beat almost anybody, and as you say the fans would go bonkers. Too often they clanked off the rim giving the ball to the other team. I remember when Fisher had a 40 point game but that was a rare occurrence. It goes without saying that team ball is more consistent than streak shooting.

The bellweather and most frustrating aspect of this team for me is Nick Emery.



He is the exact same player he was last season--not one iota of improvement, accumulated wisdom, or maturity growth. He's still the reckless Jimmer-ball freshman by the eye test, and his stats are nearly identical this season to what they were last season--he's about 1% better in shooting percentages, but that's offset by a marginally worse assist-to-turnover ratio and he's giving 1 ppg less.



http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947125/nick-emery



If the story of this team is their youth and we're supposed to buy into the idea that they'll get better with time, Emery sure isn't giving me any confidence in that coming to fruition.

snoscythe wrote:
The bellweather and most frustrating aspect of this team for me is Nick Emery.



He is the exact same player he was last season--not one iota of improvement, accumulated wisdom, or maturity growth. He's still the reckless Jimmer-ball freshman by the eye test, and his stats are nearly identical this season to what they were last season--he's about 1% better in shooting percentages, but that's offset by a marginally worse assist-to-turnover ratio and he's giving 1 ppg less.



http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947125/nick-emery



If the story of this team is their youth and we're supposed to buy into the idea that they'll get better with time, Emery sure isn't giving me any confidence in that coming to fruition.

His defense is better.

Emery needs to accept there isn't an NBA career waiting for him and just play solid team ball. Take a shot when it's there and hustle on defense.



In fact, if he did that, his prospects as a professional player would increase. His defense has gotten lots better and we desperately need all the defense we can get, so keep him on the court. Just take better shots and don't force things.

Gunk wrote:
Emery needs to accept there isn't an NBA career waiting for him and just play solid team ball. Take a shot when it's there and hustle on defense.



In fact, if he did that, his prospects as a professional player would increase. His defense has gotten lots better and we desperately need all the defense we can get, so keep him on the court. Just take better shots and don't force things.

I think his shot selection is a lot better over the last few games than it was early in the year when he thought he role was to be one of the top scorers. He's clearly working on defense and lately his shots have usually made more sense for the most part.