Did SMC get better or did BYU get worse?

All off season I heard how BYU had a massive influx of talent and Saint Mary's was the same team as last year and since both squads were essentially equal BYU would be able to handle them fairly easily. There are posts about this in this forum, if you look for them.



But what happened? I didn't see two teams that looked close to being equal last night.



I'm not nearly as much a hoops guy as I am a football guy so for those who are why was that initial analysis wrong?

They looked pretty even to me. The difference was that St. Mary's was able to put together a 13-0 run in the first half, and BYU never was able to put together enough defense to make a similar run of their own.



You can even see it in the game flow graph:


170105 BYU-StMarysGameFlow.png

That one 13-0 run made all the difference. Final margin = 13.

Okay, so they look pretty equal, just SMC is about a dozen points more equal.



That still doesn't answer the question, why was the pre-season analysis so wrong?

SMC isn't better talent wise at this point, but much better scheme wise and playing together. Compare the players position by position and I think we have better personnel. Compare teams and SMC is obviously better. They have a great scheme on offense and defense and more importantly the team follows that plan to a T. They have been playing together for a long time, many even before coming to SMC. our guys played really well for long stretches last night, but didn't have persistent patience for 40 mins and it killed them. Our guys will get better, probably this year and will look a lot better next time these teams meet. SMC is probably at their peak right now, I'm not sure they're going to keep getting better this year. We definitely can improve 'this year, substantially

hawkwing wrote:
Okay, so they look pretty equal, just SMC is about a dozen points more equal.



That still doesn't answer the question, why was the pre-season analysis so wrong?

It's about what I expected. BYU has a ton of new faces who haven't played together. SMC, as was pointed out, has been the same (good) team for several years. SMC plays within a system that requires players to do their jobs. BYU plays in a free wheeling system where a lot of breakdowns can and do occur.



I feel like BYU is trying to get by on their talent alone. It just wont cut it when you play the SMCs, Zags or even the occasional UVUs.



BYU goes 0-4 vs smc and zags this year. 0-5 if they meet in the conference tournament.



Wasn't BYU predicted to go 3rd in WCC this year? I don't recall too many fans who saw BYU beating SMC this year (except the bluest of blue goggled fans).

BYULV wrote:
SMC isn't better talent wise at this point, but much better scheme wise and playing together. Compare the players position by position and I think we have better personnel. Compare teams and SMC is obviously better. They have a great scheme on offense and defense and more importantly the team follows that plan to a T. They have been playing together for a long time, many even before coming to SMC. our guys played really well for long stretches last night, but didn't have persistent patience for 40 mins and it killed them. Our guys will get better, probably this year and will look a lot better next time these teams meet. SMC is probably at their peak right now, I'm not sure they're going to keep getting better this year. We definitely can improve 'this year, substantially

But SMC had the edge in Strength and Experience at most positions. Because of that we had to shade and help on the ball defense. That opens gaps in the D and SMC is very, very good at exploiting that.



On the topic of the tread both- we are worse this year than last year and SMC is better.

SM's entire team came back from last year right? BYU's entire team is new. Even if you say our talent upgraded, perhaps we do not account for the importance of players playing together and having that experience.

snoscythe wrote:
They looked pretty even to me. The difference was that St. Mary's was able to put together a 13-0 run in the first half, and BYU never was able to put together enough defense to make a similar run of their own.



You can even see it in the game flow graph:



170105 BYU-StMarysGameFlow.png



That one 13-0 run made all the difference. Final margin = 13.

Unfortunately, most of that 13-0 run came when Mika & LJ left the game and Bryant & Kaufusi came in.

SMC plays team ball. BYU plays hero ball. 21 assists to 9.

Mars wrote:
SMC plays team ball. BYU plays hero ball. 21 assists to 9.

byu would do well to use smc's success as a template for how a bunch of jump shooter white guys should play basketball.

I'm going to say it. SMC has a better coach. I expected this season to be a bit rough, but it's been downright chaotic at times. I hope they get it together. I'm getting tired of saying, "next year."



Even during down years for SMC, that team is focused and disciplined. They rarely detract from the game plan. When they have the talent, it's lightning in a bottle for SMC.



Rose's team are not known for being patient and disciplined. They're known for being fast, fluid, and scoring a bunch of points. Rose teams thrive off rhythm. Get us out of sync, disrupt the flow and we lose.

Gunk wrote:
I'm going to say it. SMC has a better coach. I expected this season to be a bit rough, but it's been downright chaotic at times. I hope they get it together. I'm getting tired of saying, "next year."



Even during down years for SMC, that team is focused and disciplined. They rarely detract from the game plan. When they have the talent, it's lightning in a bottle for SMC.



Rose's team are known for being patient and disciplined. They're known for being fast, fluid, and scoring a bunch of points. Rose teams thrive off rhythm. Get us out of sync, disrupt the flow and we lose.

It is interesting to consider what BYU's roster would look like coached by SMC's coach.

BYU is a young team learning how to play together. They have weaknesses that were exploited by a more experienced team. I see improvement in this team from game to game. BYU is getting better and will continue to get better. Lets give the BB team what we gave the football team this year, a chance to come together with all the change in player personnel that it went through in the off season. I feel that BYU will be much better the next time they play SMU. This team still has a chance to make it to the tourney, it just needs to continue to improve which is what I see.



By the way, Childs is a star in the making. I'm seeing him improve on defense and I'm seeing a jump shot. I don't know if he is LDS, and or planning on a mission or not but he has the potential to be really, really good. Mika is dominating and he still has his mission legs. He just doesn't look as explosive as he did as a freshman. Just wait til he has his legs back. Haws is starting to get comfortable but is streaky, probably because he is a true freshman straight off of a mission. This team has potential to be very good, they just need time.

frdbtr wrote:
This team has potential to be very good, they just need time.... and better coaching

added my thoughts to yours frdbtr. I agree with Gunk, byu has frequently been out coached since showing up to the WCC. we have the talent, but if things aren't going BYU'S WAY on offense, it all too often is a loss in the end. it's why I was down on this team back during the preseason and early season. I'm not arguing BYU has talent, but a bunch of top 100 players don't mean squat if they don't play as a team. and that's hard for any team to assemble with the amount of turnover BYU had the last year.



Childs was baptized less than a year ago. but I don't know if he has mission plans.

Qman wrote:



It is interesting to consider what BYU's roster would look like coached by SMC's coach.

i imagine the roster would look exactly the same. ;)

As SMC's or as BYU's?



Has SMC improved? Well they are ranked and going to the dance so the answer is yes.

Next year next year next year. It's always next year. We don't have a new coaching staff like the football team did. Mika could very well be gone next year. Then what? In basketball players can much more easily make an impact as a freshman compared to football. Plenty of basketball program insert new freshman every year that have an impact right away.



This is so right on:

Mars wrote:
SMC plays team ball. BYU plays hero ball. 21 assists to 9.

SMC had a really good big guy and lots of guys who could shoot (and were willing to pass the ball). BYU just had a really good big guy.

Looking back at this post: http://cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20096#p230336

I wonder if Emery is still playing with broken ribs. It's one of those things that, yeah, you can play through it, but not at 100%. He's never rested to let them heal.



And I'm going to continue to stand by my preseason expectations:



NIT early exit = Major disappointment, Rose on the HOT seat

NIT semi-finals = disappointing season

Making the NCAA tournament = Expectation

Win conference title and/or conference tourney = Exceeding expectations

Sweet 16 = Fantastic season

BroncoBot wrote:

This team has potential to be very good, they just need time.... and better coaching

added my thoughts to yours frdbtr. I agree with Gunk, byu has frequently been out coached since showing up to the WCC. we have the talent, but if things aren't going BYU'S WAY on offense, it all too often is a loss in the end. it's why I was down on this team back during the preseason and early season. I'm not arguing BYU has talent, but a bunch of top 100 players don't mean squat if they don't play as a team. and that's hard for any team to assemble with the amount of turnover BYU had the last year.



Childs was baptized less than a year ago. but I don't know if he has mission plans.

Didn't you say between 6 and 9 pre-conference losses? We're into January and still don't have 6 losses total. It has taken a while for the guards to come around, but they're getting there. SMC is a tough team to beat at their place. For that matter, how often do top 20 teams in college basketball lose at home? Essentially never. There is still a lot of season left. I still think they'll do some good things this year. A healthy Bryant seems to be able to really help them based on the last game. We're 12-5 right now. Looking at the schedule, I think we'll be 18-5 by the end of January. If they take it one at a time and focus on the task at hand, I think we win the next 6 going into the Gonzaga game.

Every time BYU loses, we get out coached. I really get sick of this attitude. It just isn't the case. Coaches coach and players play. BYU has the best BB coach it has ever had. We have dominated the utes with Rose at an unprecedented level along with going to the sweet 16 in the NCAA tourney and if it hadn't been for Brandon Davies making a honor code mistake we would have made the final 4 that year. Just because BYU hasn't dominated the WCC like fans believed we would, we want to fire this coach and try to find someone who could do better. We are 17 games into a team who has huge potential and yet fans believed that this talent would come together and dominate without having ever played together. Give it time folks, it is going to get good. SMC's team has been playing together for years. Oh and by the way, BYU has been dominating SMC recently.