Archived Topic

Good or Lucky?

by Yzzazz · 10/13/2016

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Yzzazz
With the win over perennial B10 powerhouse MSU, it seems to me that BYU fans and pundits are willing to forgive a 3-3 record full of heartbreaks and jump on the bandwagon with the expectation of a win over the other MSU. I am concerned that the Bulldogs may make the game closer than everyone expects. They could even win it. Forecasting the outcome reduces to whether BYU has actually improved measurably, or if they just caught Sparty in a down year. I think the former...but I have been oh so wrong about the cougs many times in the past. (The memory of the USU game still makes me cringe!)



The evidence for improvement--now let me interrupt and quantify this. By improvement I mean they've REALLY made a fundamental move foreward. That if BYU were to magically have the chance to go replay their games they'd win 2 out of 3 of their losses, and further, if BYU were to match up against any of those three teams again in a bowl game, BYU would win--THAT'S the level of improvement I'm thinking of.

It's not a crazy idea--it might be true.



Evidence begins with admitting BYU's limitations: new coaching staff, new offensive and defensive schemes, and star seniors that were out most or all of last year. Any team the experiences such change isn't supposed to do well, but BYU has. The two losses were razor thin and could have easily been wins. The teams played close to their competition, and sometimes were lacking key talent. Only now, in the second half at East Lansing, the cougars revealed their true nature--or so the optimists among us would explain. It was the REAL BYU we saw that blew out Michigan State.



But part of me needs to say not so fast.



BYU may not be anything other than they have been all year to this point: a pretty good team that is still learning the new schemes. Consider two points: first, that Michigan State may be much worse than everyone gives credit for. The reality for that squad is that they could actually end up staying home for the holidays. If you could look forward and know that was going to be true, then you wouldn't think the last game was such a big win. You'd have simply expected it.



Why should that be true? Well for starters Wisconsin made them look terrible. And Indiana, who may actually be terrible, made them look mediocre at best. Consider also that if Taysom had gained a bit more confidence earlier in the game rather than later, BYU might easily have scored twice more in the first half, making the game look like a complete joke.



The win over Arizona, satisfying as it was at the time, has certainly lost its luster considering the wildcats performance since then which also includes Utah's recent overpowering win. Meanwhile the loss to UCLA looks more and more suspect as the Bruin squad struggles--especially if you recall that BYU was effectively out of the game before the fourth quarter started and UCLA was able to win the game from that point on, so it seemed, merely through clock management--which their coach astutely performed.



Is it possible that BYU is only improving at the rate that you'd expect a team to perform? That the Michigan State game was not some breakout performance?



If so the Mississippi State bulldogs will catch players, and fans, by surprise. Deep into the second quarter, the cougars will realize they have a battle on their hands and fans will have to hush themselves from being tempted to talk about Tanner Mangum again. That being said, the bulldogs are down this year and though even a weak SEC team can be a stiff challenge, they may not be up to the task of coming in and knocking off a surging cougar squad at elevation while coming off a short week of preparation in front of a non-conference opponent.



In my mind, the worst case scenario here is still a win, but potential nail biter nonetheless. Something like 14 to 13. If I'm wrong and BYU has made a breakout and vindicated Tom Holmoe and the coach he helped pick and the staff that coach selected, then the game should not be close BYU should win by more than 17 points and Jamal will break some records. Of course I'm hoping for that, but I think that no one should feel let down if it doesn't go that way. It is much more likely that this week the BYU squad will return to their mean performances and the game will be a defensive struggle. Anything better than that is really good news.
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frdbtr
It's all about the offensive line when it comes to this offense. If BYU's offensive line that played in the Michigan state game shows up, BYU wins and probably easily unless it turns out to be a shootout. Watching AFR confirmed what I thought I was seeing with the Oline in the MSU game, they pointed out how well the line played and played together, it was no fluke. If BYU's offensive line had blocked like that against the utes and UCLA, BYU wins both of those games easily. Now as far as the defense is concerned, I am a little squeemish about them. (I had my hopes up for them early but WVU and Toledo have me wanting to see some consistency from them)I hope we see the defense that showed up for Michigan state but if we see the defense that we saw against toledo, BYU will have to score a bunch of points to win this one.
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YNot
Indiana isn't terrible. They're 3-2 with a loss at #2 Ohio St. (score was 24-17 in the 3rd quarter and Heisman hopeful QB JT Barrett had fewer than 100 yards on 9/21 passing). The close loss to Wake Forest wasn't a bad loss (despite the current state of Wake Forest and Indiana's football brands). Wake Forest is 5-1 with a top-20 defense.



Indiana could be decent, or even good. 2 of the 3 SI writers picked Indiana to beat #10 Nebraska this weekend.



#8 Wisconsin looked like a pretty good team in their last game - 7-14 loss to #4 Michigan on the road in the Big House.



We shall see, but there are too few data points to know what type of team Michigan St. has this year.
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Mars
Smart OP.
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Yzzazz
Painful as it may be, I think it is useful to accept the notion that BYU is just what you'd expect from a team with first year coaches, a bit of talent, and maybe just a smidgen above the perennial BYU recruits of teams past -- still good but not yet great. After all that is exactly how they showed last week. The game was dramatic and fun to win, but in the end it was a statistically normal outcome.



So here is the big problem.



If BYU is little better than the average of what they could be, then they should lose to Boise State. Unless it were true that the Broncos are quite overrated, BYU has no business expecting to take one away from them on that blue field.



I'm writing this as a way of sorting out my rationale for what to put in my cougarpredictiongame entry, so I certainly don't claim to have an airtight argument. I also acknowledge that it is hard for me to vote against the cougs, so this analysis may be a bit blue-goggled.



If I thought Boise State were about to play a statistically normal game, and BYU were about to as well, then I'd have to expect BSU to win 31 to 21. Maybe 24 if the cougs can hit a long field goal. But as I said before, that assumes Boise is not overrated.



Looking as closely as I dare, I have come to the conclusion that, yes indeed, Boise is overrated right now. Their schedule looks like a BYU schedule of old. It's not terrible, but it isn't really all that strong. BYU will clearly be their toughest challenge so far this year. I think the cougs have a better than average chance to steal one this week.



I'd be happy to have anyone counter this thinking to see if it holds up.



Given Boise is playing well, averaging 33 points a game while racking up 300 yards passing and 165 yards rushing. The line has BSU by a touchdown or more. If Boise manages these numbers in regulation (AND both teams don't hit the panic button and go into continuous up-tempo mode a la Toledo) BYU could very well lose the game.



However if Boise were to underperform its average offensive output and BYU were to outperform its own offensive output, then I think the scores get reversed, and BYU wins something akin to 27-20 in a defensively-oriented struggle.



Here is why I believe the latter is likely to happen:



1. It seems like Taysom and Jamal are total studs, so I'm thinking they will be again. Stats back this up too. BYU has outperformed their opponents allowed yards on rushing offense in nearly every game they've played (check Spiff's stats!). Its not wishful thinking. Jamal and Taysom will add to their stats.



2. Does it seem to you that BYU's offense has never really been out of the game all season so far? I think it is a good bet this phenomenon won't go away this game. The average BYU O-linesman on the depth chart has thirty pounds on the average Boise D-linesman. That would be no big deal if BYU's hogs are slow and immobile but that hasn't seem to be the case. Further, BYU's game is built around the run this year so lateral mobility is of less consequence than it might be. The ability to push the D-line back is paramount. BYU will likely have that ability.



3. BYU has held EVERY ONE of its opponents BELOW their rushing average! That is an amazing stat after the seven games they've played. No question that will carry into the Boise game. BYU's average D-Line is a shade over 10 pounds lighter than Boise's Offensive line. That's a pretty close gap in comparison to the matchups when BYU is on the field. Sitake knows "a good pass rush solves everything," as he explained in an interview this past week. BYU has good size on D-line and good speed as well. Boise will have to beat BYU with the pass, but they will likely be under pressure all night long. Bottom line their offense will struggle and will face a tougher challenge than any this year. They aren't going to make average yards, so it is safe to assume they won't make average points.



4. Boise's home games have all been their lowest scoring games. Don't know if this is weather related but it basically means those 3 points you give the home team in a betting spread are out the window.



If Boise State can't score more than 26 points (seven below their average), BYU can expect to wear them down and be ahead in the the 4th quarter.



So I'll predict BYU wins it 28 to 24 by controlling the lines, possession and game tempo.
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Mars
My questions revolve around BSU's rushing defense and their pass blocking. BYU either wins or loses this one in the trenches. We need a strong pass rush or we lose. Jamaal will get his.
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BOID
I don't know what to expect in this one. I think BSU is untested. That doesn't mean that they aren't good. It just means that we really don't know. Our line men could be better, or worse than theirs. Ours are known to be heavier, at least on offense.



Mars, I think you're correct, about this one being decided in the trenches. Both teams have good skill players.



I'll go out on a limb and guess that BYU wins; after all, what are fans for? BYU, 31 to 24.
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Yzzazz
That game was so wild, it is amazing to think that it came out about normal compared to scoring averages. I stand by the notion that given BYU plays to their statistical norm, they had no business expecting to win the game. When you throw in the jaw-dropping fake punt from inside the 10 (I will love Kalani Sitake forever for making that choice, stupid as it was!), it is crazy, crazy amazing to think BYU held Boise to 28 points. Ironically, though they let down too much on the last two drives, the defense was the reason they stayed in the game. LOTS of ifs, buts, coulda, woulda, shoulda moments--for BOTH teams--in this game. I think BYU had lots of chances to win it despite some crazy ref calls (wish we could have challenged the chop block call) and some egregious missed calls also (Kurtz soft? how about Moxey guity is more like it), but in the end, Boise won it by playing slightly better football. Nobody likes moral victories these days but this was one for the coaching staff. Lots of things for them to learn that will translate into future successes in years to come I think. Can't wait for the next visit to Blue world!
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Guest
I don't see this as a moral victory for the coaching staff at all, in fact I see this as the worst coaching performance of the season and a real black eye to the entire staff.



4th and 18, running a fake punt to the punters weak side. Probably the worst called play to ever be run in BYU history.

A defensive coverage set that was almost always out of position.

An offensive line that outweighs Boise's defense by 40-50 pounds at each position getting absolutely man handled.

An offense that stalls, kills itself with penalties repeatedly deep in BSU territory.

An offense that is moving the ball well decides to stop and kick a field goal on 2nd down 10 yards beyond what is the range of the FG kicker despite having enough time for 2 more plays.



Besides Reno Mahe there was not a single coach that coached well in this game.
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ABYUFAN
Lucky
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byufan4ever
hawkwing wrote:

An offense that is moving the ball well decides to stop and kick a field goal on 2nd down 10 yards beyond what is the range of the FG kicker despite having enough time for 2 more plays.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were right at his max range of his longest made FG. And how much time did we have left? 10 or 15 seconds? I think 1 more play max. With no timeouts remaining you gotta have at least 3 seconds left to spike (and a little more to get everyone up to the line). I think 1 more play should have been called but I don't see us getting 2 off.
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BroncoBot
byufan4ever wrote:

An offense that is moving the ball well decides to stop and kick a field goal on 2nd down 10 yards beyond what is the range of the FG kicker despite having enough time for 2 more plays.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were right at his max range of his longest made FG. And how much time did we have left? 10 or 15 seconds? I think 1 more play max. With no timeouts remaining you gotta have at least 3 seconds left to spike (and a little more to get everyone up to the line). I think 1 more play should have been called but I don't see us getting 2 off.

15 seconds. Should have run another pass to the sidelines. Hindsight says worst case scenario is a TO which wouldn't have mattered anyway now. Best case is you pick up yards and middle ground is an incompletion which stops the clock and you attempt the FG. I didn't understand not trying to pick up 5-10 more yards.
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Guest
BroncoBot wrote:
hawkwing wrote:

An offense that is moving the ball well decides to stop and kick a field goal on 2nd down 10 yards beyond what is the range of the FG kicker despite having enough time for 2 more plays.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were right at his max range of his longest made FG. And how much time did we have left? 10 or 15 seconds? I think 1 more play max. With no timeouts remaining you gotta have at least 3 seconds left to spike (and a little more to get everyone up to the line). I think 1 more play should have been called but I don't see us getting 2 off.

15 seconds. Should have run another pass to the sidelines. Hindsight says worst case scenario is a TO which wouldn't have mattered anyway now. Best case is you pick up yards and middle ground is an incompletion which stops the clock and you attempt the FG. I didn't understand not trying to pick up 5-10 more yards.

It was definitely 15 seconds, 2 plays would have been difficult, but it is doable. As it was it was a 44 yard field goal with Rhett's previous long being 35 yards.
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BroncoBot
This was the first game I can remember where timeouts became an issue...

Refreshing from last couple years where BYU basically never had TOs at the end of a game.
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mtnradio
hawkwing wrote:
byufan4ever wrote:

An offense that is moving the ball well decides to stop and kick a field goal on 2nd down 10 yards beyond what is the range of the FG kicker despite having enough time for 2 more plays.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were right at his max range of his longest made FG. And how much time did we have left? 10 or 15 seconds? I think 1 more play max. With no timeouts remaining you gotta have at least 3 seconds left to spike (and a little more to get everyone up to the line). I think 1 more play should have been called but I don't see us getting 2 off.

15 seconds. Should have run another pass to the sidelines. Hindsight says worst case scenario is a TO which wouldn't have mattered anyway now. Best case is you pick up yards and middle ground is an incompletion which stops the clock and you attempt the FG. I didn't understand not trying to pick up 5-10 more yards.

It was definitely 15 seconds, 2 plays would have been difficult, but it is doable. As it was it was a 44 yard field goal with Rhett's previous long being 35 yards.


1 play was unquestionably doable ... could have been a good move. On the other hand, Rhett his a FG earlier in game (35 yds?) ... and showed he had PLENTY of leg left as it hit the net high and hard. 44 was definitely doable ... so why risk a pick or sack? It was a strangely conservative call considering the aggressiveness of a 4th and 19 fake punt.



But, with the lack of blocking by the line, it wouldn't have mattered if it were a 12 yd kick ... it got blocked with the guys armpit two yards behind the line of scrimmage. Ouch.
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SpiffCoug
BroncoBot wrote:
This was the first game I can remember where timeouts became an issue...

Refreshing from last couple years where BYU basically never had TOs at the end of a game.

Timeouts were an issue because Taysom took a sack on that final drive causing us to have to burn that last timeout.
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frdbtr
The offensive line was being dominated. Do you risk a pass play where you give up a sack, or do you kick the field goal where the Oline gets blown up and the FG gets blocked. No win situation. The offensive line looked worse than it had in weeks and, of course, BYU's offense looked horrible because of it. Plus even if the Oline blocked well, there is no guarantee that our receivers would have even held on to the ball. Of course that does stop the clock but the ball doesn't move either.
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Mars
SpiffCoug wrote:
This was the first game I can remember where timeouts became an issue... Refreshing from last couple years where BYU basically never had TOs at the end of a game.
Timeouts were an issue because Taysom took a sack on that final drive causing us to have to burn that last timeout.

Also a panicky 8 yard run.
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