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BSU in the MWC

by frdbtr · 1/5/2010

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frdbtr
Frankly, I hope it doesn't happen. At least while Chris Peterson is BSU's head coach. He has been the coach for 4 years and they have exactly 4 losses in those 4 years. I don't care what conference you play in that is awesome. I don't want BSU in the conference because I don't want to lose to them every year.
A
ABYUFAN
If they were in the MWC perhaps TCU would get a neew helmet on thier sled dummy :whistle:



WHile I don't think that we would lose to BSU every year, I do think that they are a great team. I spent new years in Boise and was delighted to see the amount of civic pride there is for the Broncos... much more than when I went there.
D
Dcr36
Most arguments that stronger conferences make to teams in weaker conferences are BS, but there's one that I'll readily concede whenever debating the merits of the MWC with a Pac-10 or Big XII person: not so much that you play better teams, but you play MORE good teams.



As somebody pointed out in the "Would BYU win the Pac-10" thread, BYU probably COULD beat every team in the Pac-10 this year. Does that mean they'd run the table? Not so much. Getting your team prepared to face (at least) a solid team each week takes its toll. The chances of a screw-up increases: an off-game against a weak opponent still often equals a win; an off-game against a talented and opportunistic team almost always equals a loss. I imagine that coaches have a harder time hitting the right motivational buttons on their players when they have to hit them for 5-7 games a year, instead of 1-2.



I'm not going to argue that the MWC is a quality conference top-to-bottom, but it does have 4 teams who I feel can pose a legitimate threat to most other football teams ("big 3" + air force) any given week. Factor in that most teams have a out-of-conference game that looms heavy, and a bowl game at the end, and that's 5 games that BYU, AF, Utah, and TCU have to take very seriously each year. That's not SEC-worthy, obviously, but its a good number. Meanwhile,for the last two years, I don't think anyone in the WAC has posed a serious threat to BSU. So BSU has largely been able to focus on keeping their game consistent enough to avoid trap games, while being able to invest a good deal of time and effort into both Oregon and TCU both years. (This year, think about how much prep time BSU had for their two real tests: one was the season opener and the other was a January bowl game!) So what happens if BSU joins the MWC? They could dominate; that's possible. But I think it would be much harder for BSU to maintain what they've done this decade if the schedule becomes a bit more consistent and a bit more challenging. I require no more evidence that BSU can win the big games, but as for whether they can do it more than twice a year, I think that still remains to be seen.



On the other hand,that does mean that BYU will have to face another quality opponent year-in year-out as well.



(I also think its important to not suddenly consider BSU an unbeatable juggernaut; while being very good, they had an off-year three years ago and are still 2-4 in their last six bowl appearances, which I think is somewhat telling as it deals with quality non-conference opponents. Utah has also won 2 BCS titles, and I don't think anybody here considers Utah a year-in, year-out unstoppable force.)
C
CAFB_04-12
If BSU joins the MWC what you'd have is a rotating big 4 (BYU, Utah, TCU, and BSU) similar to the big 3 issue we have now. Each year a different team has dominated the others but the others have dominated the rest of the conference. If BSU plays TCU, Utah, and BYU every year there is no way they get to 12-0 all the time like they do in the WAC.



That said, it is very impressive what they have done in the past several years, even against big time opponents in BCS bowls.
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frdbtr
Dcr36 wrote:
Most arguments that stronger conferences make to teams in weaker conferences are BS, but there's one that I'll readily concede whenever debating the merits of the MWC with a Pac-10 or Big XII person: not so much that you play better teams, but you play MORE good teams.



As somebody pointed out in the "Would BYU win the Pac-10" thread, BYU probably COULD beat every team in the Pac-10 this year. Does that mean they'd run the table? Not so much. Getting your team prepared to face (at least) a solid team each week takes its toll. The chances of a screw-up increases: an off-game against a weak opponent still often equals a win; an off-game against a talented and opportunistic team almost always equals a loss. I imagine that coaches have a harder time hitting the right motivational buttons on their players when they have to hit them for 5-7 games a year, instead of 1-2.



I'm not going to argue that the MWC is a quality conference top-to-bottom, but it does have 4 teams who I feel can pose a legitimate threat to most other football teams ("big 3" + air force) any given week. Factor in that most teams have a out-of-conference game that looms heavy, and a bowl game at the end, and that's 5 games that BYU, AF, Utah, and TCU have to take very seriously each year. That's not SEC-worthy, obviously, but its a good number. Meanwhile,for the last two years, I don't think anyone in the WAC has posed a serious threat to BSU. So BSU has largely been able to focus on keeping their game consistent enough to avoid trap games, while being able to invest a good deal of time and effort into both Oregon and TCU both years. (This year, think about how much prep time BSU had for their two real tests: one was the season opener and the other was a January bowl game!) So what happens if BSU joins the MWC? They could dominate; that's possible. But I think it would be much harder for BSU to maintain what they've done this decade if the schedule becomes a bit more consistent and a bit more challenging. I require no more evidence that BSU can win the big games, but as for whether they can do it more than twice a year, I think that still remains to be seen.



On the other hand,that does mean that BYU will have to face another quality opponent year-in year-out as well.



(I also think its important to not suddenly consider BSU an unbeatable juggernaut; while being very good, they had an off-year three years ago and are still 2-4 in their last six bowl appearances, which I think is somewhat telling as it deals with quality non-conference opponents. Utah has also won 2 BCS titles, and I don't think anybody here considers Utah a year-in, year-out unstoppable force.)


I agree with this post. I don't think that BSU is unbeatable. But I do believe that they are what they showed last night in beating TCU and that is a very good and fast team that if added to the MWC would probably win it more often then not. Also, I don't believe that BSU would make the BCS want our conference any more then it already does (which is not at all).
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gmj81
I agree with most sentiments in this thread so far. First, if the MWC is worthy enough for a BCS bid already without BSU, then it's clear that they'll find a way to exclude us with BSU, when we are already a stonger conference than the Big East (plus they only have 8 teams!) and arguably others as well in terms of non-conference and bowl success. I love the 9 team format in place, it's perfect. But if the dominoes start falling to the point that where the Big Ten adds a twelfth to get a conference championship and the Pac-10 follows suit, we may need to do add BSU in addition to others just to keep up and add a conference championship of our own. Personally I hate the conference championship game. The BCS proponents talk about not wanting to "lengthen" the season any (playoff) for the student athletes but when the money is there (conference championship game) they certainly are in favor of it. But I think we need to keep our ears to the open and get some moles out there so that if it appears that is the direction things are going, we can jump on some of the top non-AQ teams before another conference does. But more than likely, the BCS conferences won't settle for top non-AQs, they'll just want to rape and pillage the other BCS conferences for profitable teams. The Big Ten will try to steal Rutgers or Pitt and the Pac-10 will start entertaining the notion of adding Colorado again and so on and so forth. I'd frankly love it if the majority of the Big East "football" schools got raided and the MWC was able to take their place in the BCS by adding a few more geographically logical teams (Boise, Fresno, etc.). Then the Big East "basketball" conference would also be downsized and wouldn't be getting 8-10 teams into the dance every year.
J
JUSTBYU
Dcr36 wrote:
Most arguments that stronger conferences make to teams in weaker conferences are BS, but there's one that I'll readily concede whenever debating the merits of the MWC with a Pac-10 or Big XII person: not so much that you play better teams, but you play MORE good teams.



As somebody pointed out in the "Would BYU win the Pac-10" thread, BYU probably COULD beat every team in the Pac-10 this year. Does that mean they'd run the table? Not so much. Getting your team prepared to face (at least) a solid team each week takes its toll. The chances of a screw-up increases: an off-game against a weak opponent still often equals a win; an off-game against a talented and opportunistic team almost always equals a loss. I imagine that coaches have a harder time hitting the right motivational buttons on their players when they have to hit them for 5-7 games a year, instead of 1-2.



I'm not going to argue that the MWC is a quality conference top-to-bottom, but it does have 4 teams who I feel can pose a legitimate threat to most other football teams ("big 3" + air force) any given week. Factor in that most teams have a out-of-conference game that looms heavy, and a bowl game at the end, and that's 5 games that BYU, AF, Utah, and TCU have to take very seriously each year. That's not SEC-worthy, obviously, but its a good number. Meanwhile,for the last two years, I don't think anyone in the WAC has posed a serious threat to BSU. So BSU has largely been able to focus on keeping their game consistent enough to avoid trap games, while being able to invest a good deal of time and effort into both Oregon and TCU both years. (This year, think about how much prep time BSU had for their two real tests: one was the season opener and the other was a January bowl game!) So what happens if BSU joins the MWC? They could dominate; that's possible. But I think it would be much harder for BSU to maintain what they've done this decade if the schedule becomes a bit more consistent and a bit more challenging. I require no more evidence that BSU can win the big games, but as for whether they can do it more than twice a year, I think that still remains to be seen.



On the other hand,that does mean that BYU will have to face another quality opponent year-in year-out as well.



(I also think its important to not suddenly consider BSU an unbeatable juggernaut; while being very good, they had an off-year three years ago and are still 2-4 in their last six bowl appearances, which I think is somewhat telling as it deals with quality non-conference opponents. Utah has also won 2 BCS titles, and I don't think anybody here considers Utah a year-in, year-out unstoppable force.)


What do you mean that our schedule is not SEC worthy. Look at the blockbuster teams that Florida played this year.

9/05 Charleston Southern 1-0 (0-0) W 62-3

9/12 Troy 2-0 (0-0) W 56-6

9/19 Tennessee 3-0 (1-0) W 23-13

9/26 @ Kentucky 4-0 (2-0) W 41-7

10/10 @ No. 4 LSU 5-0 (3-0) W 13-3

10/17 Arkansas 6-0 (4-0) W 23-20

10/24 @ Mississippi State 7-0 (5-0) W 29-19

10/31 vs. Georgia 8-0 (6-0) W 41-17

11/07 Vanderbilt 9-0 (7-0) W 27-3

11/14 @ South Carolina 10-0 (8-0) W 24-14

11/21 FIU 11-0 (8-0) W 62-3

11/28 Florida State 12-0 (8-0) W 37-10

12/05 vs. No. 2 Alabama 12-1 (8-0) L 32-13

1/01 vs. No. 3 Cincinnati 13-1 (8-0) W 51-24

Complete Team Schedule

They played three ranked teams all season. Their 4 ooc games were powerhouses Charleston Southern, Troy, FIU & Florida state. I would say that Florida only played four games this year in which they were tested at all. So Florida doesnt need to get up for each and every game they play each year either. I think that BYU needed to get up for more games this year.
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Dcr36
JUSTBYU wrote:



What do you mean that our schedule is not SEC worthy. Look at the blockbuster teams that Florida played this year.

9/05 Charleston Southern 1-0 (0-0) W 62-3

9/12 Troy 2-0 (0-0) W 56-6

9/19 Tennessee 3-0 (1-0) W 23-13

9/26 @ Kentucky 4-0 (2-0) W 41-7

10/10 @ No. 4 LSU 5-0 (3-0) W 13-3

10/17 Arkansas 6-0 (4-0) W 23-20

10/24 @ Mississippi State 7-0 (5-0) W 29-19

10/31 vs. Georgia 8-0 (6-0) W 41-17

11/07 Vanderbilt 9-0 (7-0) W 27-3

11/14 @ South Carolina 10-0 (8-0) W 24-14

11/21 FIU 11-0 (8-0) W 62-3

11/28 Florida State 12-0 (8-0) W 37-10

12/05 vs. No. 2 Alabama 12-1 (8-0) L 32-13

1/01 vs. No. 3 Cincinnati 13-1 (8-0) W 51-24

Complete Team Schedule

They played three ranked teams all season. Their 4 ooc games were powerhouses Charleston Southern, Troy, FIU & Florida state. I would say that Florida only played four games this year in which they were tested at all. So Florida doesnt need to get up for each and every game they play each year either. I think that BYU needed to get up for more games this year.


Well, I don't want to turn a thread into a SEC merits argument, so I'll agree with you that Florida's out-of-conference scheduling is ridiculous. (I would also say, however, that while Tenn. and Ark. aren't "great" teams, they are "testing teams" along the lines of AF. A good team like Florida or Alabama could conceivably lose to them. I see at least 6 games on there that require you to at least bring your B+ game. I do agree that this schedule isn't substantially harder than a MWC schedule with a good OOC game or two, however.)
K
KYCoug
JUSTBYU wrote:

What do you mean that our schedule is not SEC worthy. Look at the blockbuster teams that Florida played this year.

9/05 Charleston Southern 1-0 (0-0) W 62-3

9/12 Troy 2-0 (0-0) W 56-6

9/19 Tennessee 3-0 (1-0) W 23-13

9/26 @ Kentucky 4-0 (2-0) W 41-7

10/10 @ No. 4 LSU 5-0 (3-0) W 13-3

10/17 Arkansas 6-0 (4-0) W 23-20

10/24 @ Mississippi State 7-0 (5-0) W 29-19

10/31 vs. Georgia 8-0 (6-0) W 41-17

11/07 Vanderbilt 9-0 (7-0) W 27-3

11/14 @ South Carolina 10-0 (8-0) W 24-14

11/21 FIU 11-0 (8-0) W 62-3

11/28 Florida State 12-0 (8-0) W 37-10

12/05 vs. No. 2 Alabama 12-1 (8-0) L 32-13

1/01 vs. No. 3 Cincinnati 13-1 (8-0) W 51-24

Complete Team Schedule

They played three ranked teams all season. Their 4 ooc games were powerhouses Charleston Southern, Troy, FIU & Florida state. I would say that Florida only played four games this year in which they were tested at all. So Florida doesnt need to get up for each and every game they play each year either. I think that BYU needed to get up for more games this year.


Now that's what I call blue goggles 8) How many teams besides Florida can you name that played 9 Bowl teams? Including 2 BCS Bowl teams. Their record against the 9 Bowl teams was 9-1 with a loss to the most likely BC$ NC. I think they had plenty of Testing this year.



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville KY
K
KYCoug
Sorry I meant their record was 8-1. Problems with math today!
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Italics
frdbtr wrote:
Frankly, I hope it doesn't happen. At least while Chris Peterson is BSU's head coach. He has been the coach for 4 years and they have exactly 4 losses in those 4 years. I don't care what conference you play in that is awesome. I don't want BSU in the conference because I don't want to lose to them every year.


gee, that's the spirit :sick:
J
jonnylingo
We don't need or want BSU.
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Metal Bubba
KYCoug wrote:

What do you mean that our schedule is not SEC worthy. Look at the blockbuster teams that Florida played this year.

9/05 Charleston Southern 1-0 (0-0) W 62-3

9/12 Troy 2-0 (0-0) W 56-6

9/19 Tennessee 3-0 (1-0) W 23-13

9/26 @ Kentucky 4-0 (2-0) W 41-7

10/10 @ No. 4 LSU 5-0 (3-0) W 13-3

10/17 Arkansas 6-0 (4-0) W 23-20

10/24 @ Mississippi State 7-0 (5-0) W 29-19

10/31 vs. Georgia 8-0 (6-0) W 41-17

11/07 Vanderbilt 9-0 (7-0) W 27-3

11/14 @ South Carolina 10-0 (8-0) W 24-14

11/21 FIU 11-0 (8-0) W 62-3

11/28 Florida State 12-0 (8-0) W 37-10

12/05 vs. No. 2 Alabama 12-1 (8-0) L 32-13

1/01 vs. No. 3 Cincinnati 13-1 (8-0) W 51-24

Complete Team Schedule

They played three ranked teams all season. Their 4 ooc games were powerhouses Charleston Southern, Troy, FIU & Florida state. I would say that Florida only played four games this year in which they were tested at all. So Florida doesnt need to get up for each and every game they play each year either. I think that BYU needed to get up for more games this year.


Now that's what I call blue goggles 8) How many teams besides Florida can you name that played 9 Bowl teams? Including 2 BCS Bowl teams. Their record against the 9 Bowl teams was 9-1 with a loss to the most likely BC$ NC. I think they had plenty of Testing this year.



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville KY


No doubt. Plus, it's kind of hard to bring up the Florida State game when they blew us out.
S
Schmoe
Nine bowl teams, but how many of them got their OOC wins all at home and played an FBS team, two Sunbelt teams, and a conf USA team? So that means they only need two in-conference teams to make a bowl, which is why the SEC schedules are a joke.
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gmj81
KYCoug wrote:

What do you mean that our schedule is not SEC worthy. Look at the blockbuster teams that Florida played this year.

9/05 Charleston Southern 1-0 (0-0) W 62-3

9/12 Troy 2-0 (0-0) W 56-6

9/19 Tennessee 3-0 (1-0) W 23-13

9/26 @ Kentucky 4-0 (2-0) W 41-7

10/10 @ No. 4 LSU 5-0 (3-0) W 13-3

10/17 Arkansas 6-0 (4-0) W 23-20

10/24 @ Mississippi State 7-0 (5-0) W 29-19

10/31 vs. Georgia 8-0 (6-0) W 41-17

11/07 Vanderbilt 9-0 (7-0) W 27-3

11/14 @ South Carolina 10-0 (8-0) W 24-14

11/21 FIU 11-0 (8-0) W 62-3

11/28 Florida State 12-0 (8-0) W 37-10

12/05 vs. No. 2 Alabama 12-1 (8-0) L 32-13

1/01 vs. No. 3 Cincinnati 13-1 (8-0) W 51-24

Complete Team Schedule

They played three ranked teams all season. Their 4 ooc games were powerhouses Charleston Southern, Troy, FIU & Florida state. I would say that Florida only played four games this year in which they were tested at all. So Florida doesnt need to get up for each and every game they play each year either. I think that BYU needed to get up for more games this year.


Now that's what I call blue goggles 8) How many teams besides Florida can you name that played 9 Bowl teams? Including 2 BCS Bowl teams. Their record against the 9 Bowl teams was 9-1 with a loss to the most likely BC$ NC. I think they had plenty of Testing this year.



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville KY


Nearly half the teams in college football make it to bowls each year so I don't see how that is much of a benchmark of a rigorous schedule. BYU likely would have had the same record (8-1) or maybe 7-2 against that same schedule. And the only reason most of those teams went bowling is because they loaded up on non-conference patsies:



Tennessee (7-6) - lost bowl; Western Kentucky, UCLA, Ohio, Memphis

Kentucky (7-6) - lost bowl; @Miami (OH), Louisville, Louisiana Munroe, Eastern Kentucky

LSU (9-4) - lost bowl; @UW, Louisiana-Lafayette, Tulane, Louisiana Tech

Arkansas (8-5) - won bowl; Missouri State, Texas A&M, Eastern Michigan, Troy

Georgia (8-5) - won bowl; @#9 Oklahoma State, Arizona State, Tennessee Tech, @#7 Georgia Tech

South Carolina (7-6) - lost bowl; @NC State, FAU, South Carolina State, #18 Clemson

Florida State (7-6) - won bowl; Miami, Jacksonville State, @#7 BYU, South Florida

Alabama (12-0) - ???? bowl; #7 Va Tech, FIU, North Texas, Chattanooga

Cincinnati (12-1) - lost bowl; Southeast Missouri State, @Oregon State, Fresno State, Illinois



So that's a opponent total/bowl record of 77-39/4-4 ----> in win% ----> 0.663/0.500 (awaiting one game)



Contrast that with TCU's bowl opponents' record:



Clemson (9-5) - won bowl; Middle Tennessee, #15 TCU, Coastal Carolina, @South Carolina

SMU (8-5) - won bowl; Stephen F. Austin, @UAB, @WSU, @#11 TCU

AFA (8-5) - won bowl; Nicholls State, @Minny, @Navy, Army

BYU (11-2) - won bowl; @#3 OU, @Tulane, FSU, USU

Yewtah (10-3) - won bowl; USU, @ Oregon, @San Jose State , Louisville

Wyoming (7-6) - won bowl; Weber State, @ Colorado, Texas, @FAU

BSU (14-0) - won bowl; #16 Oregon, Miami (OH), @Bowling Green, UC Davis



So that's a opponent total/bowl record of 67-26/7-0 ----> in win% ----> 0.720/1.000



I really don't see a whole lot of disparity there that would lead me to believe that a MWC schedule is significantly easier than an SEC one. We have to play more difficult non-conference games than they do, they play a few more difficult conference games than we do. Looks pretty much like a wash to me.



Another thing I noticed besides all the home games against patsies (except Georgia who deserves mention for tough scheduling) for the SEC is that they conveniently space those games out between their conference games. So they aren't really playing tough games "week-in-and-week-out" like they and the BCS proponents would have us believe, are they? Nice little built-in bye weeks. What a load of crap... The MWC couldn't handle a SEC schedule "week-in-and-week-out".
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frdbtr
Italics wrote:
Frankly, I hope it doesn't happen. At least while Chris Peterson is BSU's head coach. He has been the coach for 4 years and they have exactly 4 losses in those 4 years. I don't care what conference you play in that is awesome. I don't want BSU in the conference because I don't want to lose to them every year.


gee, that's the spirit :sick:


All I ever hear on this board is that we need BSU, we need BSU so the BCS will want us as part of their exclusive club. I don't see it that way. All BSU will do is significantly make our schedule harder every year and the BCS will still give the MWC the finger. No thanks. We can put them on our OOC schedule if we want them (like we have). I just hope that Chris Peterson is not the coach when we finally meet them or it may be ugly. I saw a team last night in that bowl that would have pummeled BYU on its best day (BYU's current team).
M
Mars
frdbtr wrote:
All I ever hear on this board is that we need BSU, we need BSU

Probably because it's true...
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gmj81
Metal Bubba wrote:

No doubt. Plus, it's kind of hard to bring up the Florida State game when they blew us out.


Just about every team but the top 5-10 teams in the country lose games to teams they shouldn't every year.



Examples:



BYU to FSU

Miami to Clemson

West Virginia to South Florida

Stanford to Cal

Oklahoma State to Houston

Texas Tech to Houston

Houston to UTEP or UCF

Notre Dame to Navy or UConn



Those are just this year and from the top 25. Every year there are bunches of games like that. Consistency is what sets apart the teams in the top 5-10. The FSU loss is clearly not consistent with the rest of BYU's games, even the TCU game. TCU was clearly the better team and their season proves they should have been considered for the NC game they were consistent every game but the last one.
A
ABYUFAN
gmj81 wrote:

TCU was clearly the better team and their season proves they should have been considered for the NC game they were consistent every game but the last one.


Maybe we can dust off the old "The better team was disappointed to be in this lesser bowl - they knew that they deserved to be in the better bowl so they didn't show up" argument in support of TCU. People use it against MWC victories all the time, maybe we can now use it in the MWC's favor ;)
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gmj81
I really hate that excuse. I hate it when other teams use it on MWC teams, I hate it when BYU used it in last year's Vegas Bowl. But I suppose it's safe to say that occasionally some of the teams might feel that way.



However, it was clear that TCU was just not playing their game last night. I don't think the BSU defense had everything to do with it either although they certainly had a lot to do with it. Whether it was because TCU "didn't want to be there" or because they'd never experienced the noise of a closed-roof stadium or what, they just seemed out-of-sorts. BSU was the better team that day, but I would still take TCU 7 times out of 10. But all you ever have is one game, which is why I hate the "didn't want to be there" excuse. All you have is one game to prove you were the better team. Don't make any crap excuses for a loss. So to BSU I give major props and hope that they get some #1 votes from the AP. But I still don't want them in our conference... unless we are forced to go to a championship game format (requiring 12 teams).
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