ESPN article on "holy war".

http://www.espn.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id/103454/is-the-holy-war-warming-up-with-coaching-crossovers



Pretty good stuff. I, for one, am tired of the animosity and hatred between the two teams' fanbases. It's gotten a little out of hand.

I like it!



I've been neutral on the coaching change; On Bronco's departure, on Niumatalolo's decision to stay at Navy, and on "Sitake as the third choice." I've tried to understand the rather stubborn positions of those posters here that were disenfranchised by Bronco, and those who felt so much kinship with him that they appeared to deride Sitake in order to prove what BYU lost in Bronco.



But, me......a small voice from a dedicated fan.....I'm really warming up to what's happening with the BYU football program. And I'm happy.



I'm very proud of BYU's legacy and all who contributed to it.....even Crowton. Our past is us, and I like us.



And I'm really pleased with our present. Hopeful for a great future.

Ygridiron4ever wrote:
I like it!



I've been neutral on the coaching change; On Bronco's departure, on Niumatalolo's decision to stay at Navy, and on "Sitake as the third choice." I've tried to understand the rather stubborn positions of those posters here that were disenfranchised by Bronco, and those who felt so much kinship with him that they appeared to deride Sitake in order to prove what BYU lost in Bronco.



But, me......a small voice from a dedicated fan.....I'm really warming up to what's happening with the BYU football program. And I'm happy.



I'm very proud of BYU's legacy and all who contributed to it.....even Crowton. Our past is us, and I like us.



And I'm really pleased with our present. Hopeful for a great future.

I like this. Agree.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me about Bronco's role in the rivalry. Many Utes continue to say that Bronco made the rivalry toxic, and that things may improve now that he is gone.



Excuse me?



I don't see it. What am I missing here? Or, are these Uties just sadly delusional? As far as I could observe, Bronco was as low key as coaches could be. He never said or did anything to provoke the Utes. He never did Urban Meyer type stuff, like putting the rival's imagery in the team's bathroom urinals, or making dismissive references like "The Team Down South."



Much was made of Max Hall's "I hate the U" statement, but Max was a player, not a coach. Meanwhile, Morgan Scalley has since become a coach, but has never apologized for his public rant about hating BYU, which was relatively ignored by the local media. What makes Scalley any more justified than Hall?



Back to Bronco: If he had any fault regarding the "Holy War," it was merely that of approaching it quietly and telling his team that it was "just anther game," to be prepared for like any other game. Although that likely contributed to BYU's losses to the rival, I fail to see how it was in any way inflammatory or insulting.



Also, what in the world is this "holier than thou" nonsense? Where did this come from? Is it perhaps a paranoid delusion that arose spontaneously in the minds of anti-LDS bigots? I don't recall any BYU people trying to reference the Utes as somehow sinful, because they had beer in their stadium or some such contrast to BYU.



Perhaps the answer to these questions lies in the realm of insanity. In other words, it is illogical to expect reason from madness. While recognizing that most folks from both fan bases are decent, pleasant people, there are enough bad actors that we are, none the less, continually bombarded with this strife.



Here is where I become judgemental. I believe that the Utes initiate, and the Cougars react. What I see, is hatred, paranoia, and incoherency from the worst of the Utes. In contrast, from the worst of the Cougar fans, I see mainly after-the-fact reactionary behavior, such as loss of patience, irritation, and satirical rebuttal. Even Lenny Gomes' famous quote was reactionary, not initiatory.



However, I don't see how Bronco was a catalyst to any of this.

BOID wrote:
Perhaps someone can enlighten me about Bronco's role in the rivalry. Many Utes continue to say that Bronco made the rivalry toxic, and that things may improve now that he is gone.



Excuse me?



I don't see it. What am I missing here? Or, are these Uties just sadly delusional? As far as I could observe, Bronco was as low key as coaches could be. He never said or did anything to provoke the 'tards. He never did Urban Meyer type stuff, like putting the rival's imagery in the team's bathroom urinals, or making dismissive references like "The Team Down South."



Much was made of Max Hall's "I hate the U" statement, but Max was a player, not a coach. Meanwhile, Morgan Scalley has since become a coach, but has never apologized for his public rant about hating BYU, which was relatively ignored by the local media. What makes Scalley any more justified than Hall?



Back to Bronco: If he had any fault regarding the "Holy War," it was merely that of approaching it quietly and telling his team that it was "just anther game," to be prepared for like any other game. Although that likely contributed to BYU's losses to the rival, I fail to see how it was in any way inflammatory or insulting.



Also, what in the world is this "holier than thou" nonsense? Where did this come from? Is it perhaps a paranoid delusion that arose spontaneously in the minds of anti-LDS bigots? I don't recall any BYU people trying to reference the Utes as somehow sinful, because they had beer in their stadium or some such contrast to BYU.



Perhaps the answer to these questions lies in the realm of insanity. In other words, it is illogical to expect reason from madness. While recognizing that most folks from both fan bases are decent, pleasant people, there are enough bad actors that we are, none the less, continually bombarded with this strife. Here is where I become judgemental. I believe that the Utes initiate, and the Cougars react. What I see, is hatred, paranoia, and incoherency from the worst of the Utes. In contrast, from the worst of the Cougar fans, I see mainly after-the-fact reactionary behavior, such as loss of patience, irritation, and satirical rebuttal.



However, I don't see how Bronco was a catalyst to any of this.

I've always had this same question about why Kyle and bronco seemed to dislike each other so much. The only answer that seems to make sense is allegedly Kyle felt that bronco preached that the byu kids were better people and a higher standard of people. Kyle deeply resented it. Kyles mom aledgedly referred to bronco as "bishop bronco".



That resentment is the only explanation I've heard for why the two seemed to get along so poorly. I have no idea if it's true.



It is annoying that bronco leaving is talked about as the cure for the hate as if he was the only problem. With my blue googles it seems Chris hill and Krystkoviak are the two biggest instigators. Whitt seems pretty apathetic to us but doesn't push the hate

I personally think you hit the nail on the head in your third paragraph:

BOID wrote:
I don't see it. What am I missing here? Or, are these Uties just sadly delusional? As far as I could observe, Bronco was as low key as coaches could be. He never said or did anything to provoke the 'tards. He never did Urban Meyer type stuff, like putting the rival's imagery in the team's bathroom urinals, or making dismissive references like "The Team Down South."

I think it started getting really ugly when Urban Meyer went to Utah. It was a great rivalry between LaVell and Ron. 34-31, anyone?



But Urban's desire to win (not for his team, but for himself), and almost total lack of a moral compass, poisoned the well. Really, who puts decals in a urinal and tells young kids to literally piss on BYU? And the shame is; he didn't care about Utah anymore than he cared about BYU. He rode that pony hard and put it away wet!



I think almost everything in his professional life is an act. Even his brief hiatus for personal health and family issues was a ploy to get where he is. And yes, I will,concede that he must have a great football mind; can't deny his success....begrudgingly.



And I think a little too much of Urban rubbed off on Kyle.



Okay, my biased rant is over.

OK, that makes some sense, but was Kyle hearing this stuff directly from Bronco? Or was it from Bronco's spoken words to reporters, press conferences, etc? I wonder if Kyle took exception to Bronco's pre-game fire sides.



Also, Stirfry, good call on Chris Hill and Krystoviac. My post was already too long, but whole pages could have been written about their toxic behavior for sure!

Ygridiron:



"I think a little too much of Urban rubbed off on Kyle."



I think you have something there. I'm glad that none of That guy rubbed off on Kalani. Sitake, Lamb, Detmer, Tuiaki = real class.

BOID wrote:
OK, that makes some sense, but was Kyle hearing this stuff directly from Bronco? Or was it from Bronco's spoken words to reporters, press conferences, etc? I wonder if Kyle took exception to Bronco's pre-game fire sides.



Also, Stirfry, good call on Chris Hill and Krystoviac. My post was already too long, but whole pages could have been written about their toxic behavior for sure!

There was nothing from Bronco to Kyle or to Utes in general. The Kyle Whittingham family were deeply offended by the very idea that a guy could come into BYU and coach at an extremely high level while praising the church and holding up it's standards as important and not something to be hidden or shied away from. He and his family took this as a slight because that's now how he approaches coaching even though nothing Bronco did or said was ever directed at the way Whittingham coaches or his philosophy.

hawkwing wrote:

OK, that makes some sense, but was Kyle hearing this stuff directly from Bronco? Or was it from Bronco's spoken words to reporters, press conferences, etc? I wonder if Kyle took exception to Bronco's pre-game fire sides.



Also, Stirfry, good call on Chris Hill and Krystoviac. My post was already too long, but whole pages could have been written about their toxic behavior for sure!

There was nothing from Bronco to Kyle or to Utes in general. The Kyle Whittingham family were deeply offended by the very idea that a guy could come into BYU and coach at an extremely high level while praising the church and holding up it's standards as important and not something to be hidden or shied away from. He and his family took this as a slight because that's now how he approaches coaching even though nothing Bronco did or said was ever directed at the way Whittingham coaches or his philosophy.

Thanks, Hawk. I really didn't know. So the Whits are in on this hatred based on paranoia, and contributing to the "Holier than Thou" accusation until even Dick Harmon mentions it in his Deseret News story. Spending emotional energy being upset about "Bishop Bronco," what a life that is, huh?

BYU needed "Bishop Bronco" when he became HC. He was what we needed at that time. Now Bronco's time is over and it is time for someone new--someone more like LaVell.



The Whittinghams didn't need to comment on Bronco's methods--that added fuel to a fire started by Urban.

As much as I've been a critic of Bronco, the guy did nothing that I can recall to add to the animosity in the rivalry.



The tired and clichéd "holier than thou" accusations from non-LDS Ute fans stem more from BYU fans simply being part of a religious school in general than any real life experience. For ALUFs, the accusation comes from them trying to justify rooting against the school their Church is associated with.



I think both groups were quick to latch onto Bronco's personality and how he talked in "hushed and reverent tones," as someone recently put it, as an excuse to make the same accusations against him.



And for the record, as much as he may want to, Kyle can't deny a distinct spiritual vs secular difference in the two schools. Heck, a big reason his team is playing in the PAC 12 right now is because of the anti-LDS bias in that conference.

The holier-than-thou schtick that drove the Whittinghams' crazy came out of the spotlight on the recruiting trail where Bronco would go negative on the U's culture.

The tired and clichéd "holier than thou" accusations from non-LDS Ute fans stem more from BYU fans simply being part of a religious school in general than any real life experience. For ALUFs, the accusation comes from them trying to justify rooting against the school their Church is associated with.



I agree with this.

To me, the only aspect of the rivalry that turns toxic is when you have opposing fans that "hate" you more so for the religion you stand for. That is what has bought the deep spite and animosity between the fan bases. I talk to Utah fans constantly that don't particularly like BYU, but minus that malice, you can have fun with the rivalry and with them. It can be enjoyable (if your team actually wins a bit more than we have these last 6-7 years). It's what's driving those Utah and USU fans to go as far as getting on the fan sites of our opponents and the B12 conference members and singing a song of doom and demise toward BYU. It's not the team, it's the institution that has their ire.



I believe having the two coaches as valid friends will soften some of the rivalry, but it will have no impact on those yo-yos that hate the Church.

This conversation has got me really thinking: What is the true root of the pure hatred by Utes toward BYU. I think I might have an answer. Perhaps the true reason some Utes hate BYU so much stems back to a sign we displayed at BYU/UTAH football and bball games during the 2000 - 2001 seasons. It read, "The U of U was Your 2nd Choice." How dare we make a sign that was so blatantly rude and holier than thou. (Was it libelous? No, couldn't have been libelous, since truth is a valid defense to libel. But I digress.)



We made that sign as a joke, in fun, in jest. I could easily see a Ute making a similar sign in reverse and would not think anything of it. Would not call it holier than thou, etc. The same is not true as to BYU. In many instances, otherwise silly college-student statements, signs, etc., that are to be expected as part of a rivalry, are blown out of proportion, out of context, and add fuel to the haters. Some will view anything BYU does or stands for as justifying the hatred. In this regard, nothing is off limits in terms of what hater will view as additional evidence of why his/her opinion of BYU is correct, including a coach's demeanor, attitude, etc. Just my two cents.

Wait a minute. Aren't we really holier than they are???

tic

snoscythe wrote:
The holier-than-thou schtick that drove the Whittinghams' crazy came out of the spotlight on the recruiting trail where Bronco would go negative on the U's culture.

Which is hilarious because the U's recruiting pitch under Urban and Whittingham has been come to the U where you can be LDS on Sunday (except if we have a game) and party the rest of the days.

vancouvercougar wrote:
Wait a minute. Aren't we really holier than they are???

Quick...somebody make a big sign!!

1- Bronco reading scriptures.

2- Austin Collies quote.

3- Max Halls' rant.

4- Bronco's comment that BYU was done losing in-state pre-RMs to Utah.



Not a whole lot. Whitt's reaction was to stop pretending to be nice, even for the sake of public charities.