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Dick Harmon's View On Expansion

by EM_Puma · 7/29/2016

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EM_Puma
960 AM had Dick Harmon from the Deseret News on today and asked his opinion of the Big 12 expansion.



http://espn960sports.com/interviews/dick-harmon-deseret-news-6/



I think he hit it out of the park as to what exactly I feel. I think it's possible that if only 2 teams are selected for expansion that BYU could be one of them, but the probability is diminished because of: 1. West Virginia wanting a travel partner (he says it doesn't really matter who your travel partner is, but WV wants another East Coast team); and 2. The Big 12 isn't really looking for the best candidate, but they're looking for the "right" candidate. There are a lot of political issues out there that very well could influence the outcome.



Then he says it all when he basically says that if BYU isn't picked, it isn't anything to do with the most qualified school. There just isn't any other school that is currently not in a P5 conference that has the resume that BYU has and I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.



As I said, I would love to be wrong, but I only see BYU being included if the Big 12 goes to 14 teams, and as Dick said in the interview, it wouldn't be a smart business move, with the teams that are currently available, to dilute the revenue shares to 14 with the other 3 teams beyond BYU they would be adding.



Often the spoils goes to those other than the best, heck, haven't we seen that big time in the Democratic and Republican representatives this election for president? There is no common sense that tells me that either Clinton or Trump are the best qualified to be considered. Both carry far too much baggage, but most assuredly one of the two will have Pennsylvania Ave as part of their address come next year.
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Schmoe
If the Big XII doesn't take us, they'll be the ones that screwed up, not us. We'll continue to play great teams on national TV as an independent, and they'd likely end up with Houston who's not nearly as good in anything, doesn't open any new markets, and has zero national following. In or out, I'm good.
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frdbtr
BYU should get in. Like was stated above, BYU is the most qualified and was the most qualified in 2010 but IMO BYU will not get in. Politics will dictate that 2 other schools get picked.
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BlueK
Listen to the interview. It's not negative -- at least not from Dick Harmon. The first thing he says is he thinks what the B12 is dealing with is not knowing who to take along with BYU because no one else comes close. The HOSTS were the ones who got him to talk about the negative points. I didn't get the sense that Harmon is THAT worried about it. He was just addressing the points the hosts kept bringing up. But even then they didn't really talk much about the religious/cultural/social stuff you guys are.



Other than the obvious fact that BYU brings the most to the table, you have to also consider that BYU can join for 2017 while AAC schools can't -- at least not without having to pay way more money to the AAC than the team would be worth. If it's about money, why wouldn't the Big 12 want to cash in right away? That is kind of a big deal. I could see them taking one AAC team first, but not two. To just give up on adding for 2017 when there is an obvious choice available to them that doesn't carry huge penalties doesn't make sense. Granted, they've made some silly decisions in the past, but given that they paid a lot of money to make this decision based on hard data, as well as the fact that they have already said what the factors were that would be used this time, I think there are more reasons to think we'll be ok.
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BlueK
frdbtr wrote:
BYU should get in. Like was stated above, BYU is the most qualified and was the most qualified in 2010 but IMO BYU will not get in. Politics will dictate that 2 other schools get picked.


Maybe, but I don't really think so. In 2011 the P12 made it pretty clear what they thought when a couple of schools threw a childish fit when they thought Baylor might be part of the deal. So they ran off and got Colorado to make sure they didn't have to take Baylor. This time there has really been zero talk from Big 12 sources about BYU in that same way. The worst thing that has been said, and it has ONLY come from speculating media folks and NOT from anyone inside the Big 12 has been about the Sunday thing. On the other hand, the B12 has specifically said what they will make the decisions on (fanbase size, strength of entire athletics program, academics, etc.) and they are all factors that favor BYU. Sure, they can go back on that if they're idiots, but it they're THAT stupid the conference will kill itself over the next few years anyway.
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BlueK
Dennis Dodd of CBS in his last article says BYU is way in the lead. Given his personal tendency the last few years to bash BYU at any opportunity, as well as going hardline anti-expansion for the Big 12 right up until the last minute, I think it makes sense to assume he's heard something that led him to change his tune and doesn't want to be wrong again. He didn't have to say anything about BYU now. I don't think he wants egg on his face again, and like I said, it's not his style recently about this topic to give BYU props.
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EM_Puma
BlueK wrote:
Listen to the interview. It's not negative -- at least not from Dick Harmon. The first thing he says is he thinks what the B12 is dealing with is not knowing who to take along with BYU because no one else comes close.


No I didn't believe it was negative whatsoever. It was more of a realist view IMHO. That's not how I interpreted what he said, but I can see how you might arrive to that conclusion. Yes, he acknowledged that BYU was the most qualified of any contender, but he doesn't say he thinks the B12 is simply trying to find out who they add with BYU. I don't believe that was his point whatsoever.
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MTM
EM_Puma wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.



As far as the Big 12 goes I have a hard time seeing BYU getting in if they take only 2. Texas’ Guv has pretty much assured Houston is #1. And, I’ve always thought they’d go east with a tie to WV. So, I’d lean Cincinnati. But I do agree that a lot of other factors play in who is in and who is out.



Cincinnati Football has been pretty good the past 10 seasons. I think the young kids call that “trending”. And their basketball program has a richer history than BYU or Utah. I think they are a fairly easy sell.



But the Big 10 had 11 teams for a long time. Maybe BYU makes 3 and maybe for football only? Nothing says it has to be 2 or 4, right? Scheduling is imperfect one you can’t play a round robin anyway.
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Schmoe
MTM wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.
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MTM
Schmoe wrote:
EM_Puma wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


I've not seen empirical evidence to support superior TV ratings. On the contrary. I don't see BYU pulling 3s. More like 1.2s.

And there is a difference between butts in seats and revenue. I'd be curious to know how many of your 58,000 paid full ticket price and how many are there on a $10 Family Pass or bring a can of soup for a GA ticket. This is an honest question.



But this thread is about the Big-12 expansion so sorry for the threadjack.
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snoscythe
Schmoe wrote:
EM_Puma wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/darnell-dickson/does-byu-truly-have-a-national-presence-in-football/article_99a91df4-7e2d-11df-8400-001cc4c03286.html
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Schmoe
MTM wrote:
MTM wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


I've not seen empirical evidence to support superior TV ratings. On the contrary. I don't see BYU pulling 3s. More like 1.2s.

And there is a difference between butts in seats and revenue. I'd be curious to know how many of your 58,000 paid full ticket price and how many are there on a $10 Family Pass or bring a can of soup for a GA ticket. This is an honest question.



But this thread is about the Big-12 expansion so sorry for the threadjack.


We don't have to be pulling 3's to be pulling more than Utah:

Here's our two common opponents last year

2015 Season # of Viewers

Week 1: Utah v Mich 2.868M

Week 4: BYU v Mich 3.071M



Week 3: BYU v UCLA 946K

Week 12: Utah v UCLA 845K
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MTM
snoscythe wrote:



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/darnell-dickson/does-byu-truly-have-a-national-presence-in-football/article_99a91df4-7e2d-11df-8400-001cc4c03286.html


Couple of silly statements in this piece.



2006 @ Boston College "drew 2-4,000 less than most of the Eagles other home games in 2006." "A pretty good representation for the Cougars."

Teams that outdrew BYU at BC that season-Maine, Duke (2-10), Navy (by 12K)



2007@ UCLA "attendance for this game was very comparable to the Bruins other home games that season." "

"CONCLUSION: BYU draws well in southern California."

Wait. What?



Here is your road attendance last season compared to the average.

Nebraska 89.959 vs, 90.004

UCLA 67,612 vs. 66.707

Michigan 108.940 vs. 110.372

SJSU 15.652 vs, 15.231

Mizzou 42.824 vs. 65.090 (that was a weird week)

USU 22.509 vs. 21.133



This happens every time. I really didn't come here to argue. We could cite articles and statistics all week long.

You think BYU is far and away the best choice for the Big 12 just like I believe the PAC was happy to get Utah and we won't change each other's minds and that's OK.



Good luck.
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MTM
Schmoe wrote:
Schmoe wrote:
EM_Puma wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


I've not seen empirical evidence to support superior TV ratings. On the contrary. I don't see BYU pulling 3s. More like 1.2s.

And there is a difference between butts in seats and revenue. I'd be curious to know how many of your 58,000 paid full ticket price and how many are there on a $10 Family Pass or bring a can of soup for a GA ticket. This is an honest question.



But this thread is about the Big-12 expansion so sorry for the threadjack.


We don't have to be pulling 3's to be pulling more than Utah:

Here's our two common opponents last year

2015 Season # of Viewers

Week 1: Utah v Mich 2.868M

Week 4: BYU v Mich 3.071M



Week 3: BYU v UCLA 946K

Week 12: Utah v UCLA 845K


Thursday Night vs. Saturday afternoon? Of course BYU drew better.



I'll grant you UCLA although both drew a crappy number.
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Schmoe
MTM wrote:

Thursday Night vs. Saturday afternoon? Of course BYU drew better.



I'll grant you UCLA although both drew a crappy number.


Dude, the opening Thursday of college football, the second game of the entire season, with no games to compete with.
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MTM
There were 4 games on that night but I understand the point you're trying to make.
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Stirfry
MTM wrote:
MTM wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


I've not seen empirical evidence to support superior TV ratings. On the contrary. I don't see BYU pulling 3s. More like 1.2s.

And there is a difference between butts in seats and revenue. I'd be curious to know how many of your 58,000 paid full ticket price and how many are there on a $10 Family Pass or bring a can of soup for a GA ticket. This is an honest question.



But this thread is about the Big-12 expansion so sorry for the threadjack.


I've wondered about how many are on discount tickets too but it's not like that's unique to byu. Personally in 34 years of living in salt lake I've only had the opportunity or seen the opportunity of going as a ym/yw activity one time. Byu students pay for tickets as well.



I did my mba at Utah two years ago and we were all given two season tickets to football even if we didn't use them and basketball tickets were something like 1 student ID gets 6 people in per game.



It would be interesting to see a ticket revenues per game and also an actual attendance (not tickets sold) per game of both schools.
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MTM
Stirfry wrote:
Schmoe wrote:
EM_Puma wrote:
I believe that was the same case when the Big 12 added TCU and the PAC 12 added Puketah. Yes, they had some great football teams, but total sports package, butts in seats, eyes on TV, tradition, etc. BYU had them beat, but we still lost.


See, I don’t get this. I don’t see how anyone can argue that, in its totality, BYU Athletics is better than Utah’s.



Football during LaVell’s first 20 years? Sure.

Since? I’d give the edge to Utah.

Before? Not even close.



And Utah Basketball has far more tradition than BYU. 3 Final Fours and 12 Sweet 16s in my lifetime.



Is there an attendance spike for BYU road games? Hint: there isn’t. I’ve seen the TV ratings and BYU is generally middle of the road there too. Even attendance at LES is waning. BYU is fine. I just don’t see them as head and shoulders better than anyone else but it a familiar refrain.


Bigger venues, higher home attendance in both money sports, more eyeballs on TV's, more notable football achievements, nationally prominent in football for 20 years longer. Not saying that Utah is Western Kentucky, but BYU has a bigger draw, the numbers say so.


I've not seen empirical evidence to support superior TV ratings. On the contrary. I don't see BYU pulling 3s. More like 1.2s.

And there is a difference between butts in seats and revenue. I'd be curious to know how many of your 58,000 paid full ticket price and how many are there on a $10 Family Pass or bring a can of soup for a GA ticket. This is an honest question.



But this thread is about the Big-12 expansion so sorry for the threadjack.


I've wondered about how many are on discount tickets too but it's not like that's unique to byu. Personally in 34 years of living in salt lake I've only had the opportunity or seen the opportunity of going as a ym/yw activity one time. Byu students pay for tickets as well.



I did my mba at Utah two years ago and we were all given two season tickets to football even if we didn't use them and basketball tickets were something like 1 student ID gets 6 people in per game.



It would be interesting to see a ticket revenues per game and also an actual attendance (not tickets sold) per game of both schools.


Oh, geez, when I was a student at the U anybody could show up at kick off and get in.



My daughter is a student, she is not in the MUSS, and she can get in free but those are limited in supply and first come first served.



PAC-12 affiliation has made it a pretty tough ticket. To secure new season tickets in the chair seats one must make a $6500 Crimson Club donation for two consecutive years.



I'd be curious to see what demand would look like with stadium expansion. It seems like demand is there but maybe not.



Not sure what basketball demand is these days. I just know lower bowl season tickets are more expensive than I am willing to spend.
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vancouvercougar
[/quote]



Oh, geez, when I was a student at the U anybody could show up at kick off and get in.



My daughter is a student, she is not in the MUSS, and she can get in free but those are limited in supply and first come first served.



PAC-12 affiliation has made it a pretty tough ticket. To secure new season tickets in the chair seats one must make a $6500 Crimson Club donation for two consecutive years.



I'd be curious to see what demand would look like with stadium expansion. It seems like demand is there but maybe not.



Not sure what basketball demand is these days. I just know lower bowl season tickets are more expensive than I am willing to spend.[/quote]



Do you think demand would decrease for Rice Eccles if BYU is part of the BIG 12?
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scott715
That could sway some of their bandwagon fans.
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