Fan Bases Most Obsessed With Their Rival

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"2. Utah: This is truly a strange one. Utah is a bigger school than BYU, a secular institution, a member of the Power 5 conference and has had much more recent success (having won the past five meetings). Yet, Utes fans have such a vitriolic hate for all things BYU that borders on irrational.



Maybe it's the Notre Dame syndrome played out in a single state. BYU holds itself to a "higher standard" and that's probably why Utah's fans can't stand it." :D

The "hate" for BYU football - and for BYU itself I cannot understand. Case in point, I have 2 LDS buddies that are both RM's, one of them is on the High Council in his stake. They both despise BYU as a school - and the football program. The one High Council member and I have even gotten into pretty good arguments about BYU over flat out lies that he has heard over the past 6-7 years. Good natured rivalries I get. However, I cannot understand the depth of their dislike for BYU. I do know it runs deep and is real.

This should be prefaced with a concession. That is, that I know and acknowledge that not all Utes share this problem. However, since we all know that it is none-the-less a wide spread problem, then I forge on with the following. It's somewhat hyperbolic, but please bear with me.



I think that Ute hatred of BYU exceeds that of other, more normal school rivalries. It seems to be a deeply rooted psychopathology, somewhat similar to the Lamanites and their long established hatred of Nephites. A case can be made that it is also similar to the long history of hatred that the sons of Ishmael had for the sons of Jacob (Arab hatred of the Jews). Sure, Cougars and Utes do not go back as far as these comparisons, and so they are a bit of a stretch as far as comparisons go. Still, there is some similarity to the murmurings of Laman and Lemuel, when they complained that Nephi thought he was better than them, and that "He seeketh to make himself a ruler over us." Also, it did not please them that their father favored Nephi because of his righteousness.



One thing that continues to come up with Ute fans in their contempt for BYU, is something parallel to this. They keep the attack going by hurling the label of smug, self righteousness. How many times have we heard: "We don't like their holier-than-thou attitude?" There is also this classic line: "And this coming from an institution that prides itself in its Honor Code." The incessant search for evidence of BYU hypocrisy comes, not just from inactive Mormons and non-members, but, curiously, from active LDS Utes as well. Utah Ward members endure this from Utes, even while at church. From the latter, we frequently hear criticisms of how BYU people think that their school and teams are sanctioned/favored of the Lord, while the Utes' are not.



Are they correct? Maybe they are, regarding the beliefs of some BYU fans. Uties did certainly go berserk over Austin Collie's "Magic Happens" comments. However, I can say that when I converse with other BYU alumni or fans, I do not hear the sort of self-righteous arrogance that Utes complain of. I don't regard Collie's statements as arrogance, either. Nevertheless, it is a HUGE proverbial chip that sits on the Utes' shoulders. It's pathological, and could perhaps benefit from therapy.



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The above post nails it.



Frankly, I think there's a certain amount of disloyalty on the part of any active LDS member who roots against BYU. Non-LDS, ex-Mormons, jack-Mormons I get. By why root against the school that is owned by your Church and synonymous with it in the eyes of many non-members? Especially if you're rooting for its arch rival who, in addition to being all for a lot of things your church is against, got a PAC 12 invite partly because of anti-LDS bias, which shut BYU out. These are inconvenient questions most LDS Ute fans would rather ignore.



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Schmoe wrote:
http://www.thepostgame.com/road-saturday/201602/college-football-most-obsessed-rivalries-michigan-ucla-texas-ohio-state



"2. Utah: This is truly a strange one. Utah is a bigger school than BYU, a secular institution, a member of the Power 5 conference and has had much more recent success (having won the past five meetings). Yet, Utes fans have such a vitriolic hate for all things BYU that borders on irrational. :D

Is Utah a "a bigger school than BYU?" In what ways? Is this a common misconception?



I once asked a former University of Oregon linebacker how big he thought BYU was and the size of LES. He answered with questions: about 10,000 students? about 25,000 seats? He was shocked when he learned the facts. Especially given the comparatively smaller size of the University of Oregon and its facilities at the time. The size of the Marriott Center blew him away. It was a fun discussion and eye opening for him.



The student populations for both BYU and Utah hover around 30,000. Both have recognized post-graduate programs. The U has a medical school - does that make it "bigger?"

KingCoug wrote:
The above post nails it.



Frankly, I think there's a certain amount of disloyalty on the part of any active LDS member who roots against BYU. Non-LDS, ex-Mormons, jack-Mormons I get. By why root against the school that is owned by your Church and synonymous with it in the eyes of many non-members? Especially if you're rooting for its arch rival who, in addition to being all for a lot of things your church is against, got a PAC 12 invite partly because of anti-LDS bias, which shut BYU out. These are inconvenient questions most LDS Ute fans would rather ignore.

The above statement is really not fair at all.



First, religious loyalty is not tied to a specific educational institution. In fact, it can't. Even if you removed all non-LDS students from the school there is no way for it to accept all LDS applicants. So of those who cannot attend (due to proximity, qualifications, desired topic of study, etc.) they are somehow less "Mormon" if they cheer for the sports teams of their alma mater and not for BYU? Absurd.



Second, is it not hypocritical to say Mormons must cheer for BYU to be loyal--but residents of Utah don't have to cheer for Utah because it isn't BYU. My father is a Utah fan because he attended there, granduated, and made a living to provide for his family with the degree he obtained. So he cheers for BYU. He doesn't cheer for BYU because he has no ties there other than having a couple of his kids go there or know people who did. How is he obligated to cheer for BYU because he is Mormon? That also seems subjective and selective on what loyalties should be. There is no doctrinal or socially sound basis for judging someone based on the athletic team they support.



Third, if the University of Utah "all for a lot of things [our] church is against", why would the Church give them financial support? Yet they do. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865555628/LDS-Church-gives-4-million-for-new-University-of-Utah-law-school-building.html?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do they not discourage students from attending Utah? They don't--yet provide support for Utah students through an extensive institute program. There is no basis to say that Mormons should be loyal to BYU and not to Utah...or any other institution for that matter.



We could go on and on....but I think it is briefly said that sports fans will cheer for teams for which they have a personal connection. And that doesn't always include attendance. My EQ Pres is a Notre Dame who resides in Utah--and he doesn't cheer for either BYU or Utah. Where would he stand on the "Mormon loyalty scale"? He is a fan of that school due to family ties and experiences growing up that tie him there. Its all good. Fandom has no reflection on how loyal one is to their church.

Articles like that posted are mostly humorous, but these sorts of things are hardly black and white. Some of my best friends are Utah graduates and they are the most decent and kind people I know. They hope Utah beats BYU (just as I hope BYU wins) when they play, but otherwise don't pay too much attention. The fact of the matter is that a minority of morons (on both sides) get all the attention and this extremism is used to define the rivalry as suits them. Are there jerk Ute fans? Yes. Are there BYU jerk fans? Most assuredly. I've seen "bad" fans on both sides. They do not define the fan bases, however, and we should not allow them to.

BoiseBYU wrote:
Articles like that posted are mostly humorous, but these sorts of things are hardly black and white. Some of my best friends are Utah graduates and they are the most decent and kind people I know. They hope Utah beats BYU (just as I hope BYU wins) when they play, but otherwise don't pay too much attention. The fact of the matter is that a minority of morons (on both sides) get all the attention and this extremism is used to define the rivalry as suits them. Are there jerk Ute fans? Yes. Are there BYU jerk fans? Most assuredly. I've seen "bad" fans on both sides. They do not define the fan bases, however, and we should not allow them to.

I think you took off your blue goggles! :crazy:



But I admire your ability to see both sides. I try to do the same although I don't live in Utah and so don't have to deal with many Ute fans. It's very easy for BYU fans to say that (from their perspective) the Utah fans are the worse of the two, but then the Utah fans (from their perspective) say the exact same thing about BYU fans!

byufan4ever wrote:

Articles like that posted are mostly humorous, but these sorts of things are hardly black and white. Some of my best friends are Utah graduates and they are the most decent and kind people I know. They hope Utah beats BYU (just as I hope BYU wins) when they play, but otherwise don't pay too much attention. The fact of the matter is that a minority of morons (on both sides) get all the attention and this extremism is used to define the rivalry as suits them. Are there jerk Ute fans? Yes. Are there BYU jerk fans? Most assuredly. I've seen "bad" fans on both sides. They do not define the fan bases, however, and we should not allow them to.

I think you took off your blue goggles! :crazy:



But I admire your ability to see both sides. I try to do the same although I don't live in Utah and so don't have to deal with many Ute fans. It's very easy for BYU fans to say that (from their perspective) the Utah fans are the worse of the two, but then the Utah fans (from their perspective) say the exact same thing about BYU fans!

I also know people like you have described. Some of them are good friends. They are the normal fans. They cheer for their Utes, which is OK, and is as expected. They do not hate BYU, and I do not hate their team, yet we both hope for a victory over the other when our teams meet.



However, I do not know any BYU fans that buy tickets to Ute games vs third parties, just so that they can cheer against the Utes. I don't know any BYU fans that troll the comments section for Ute news articles. There may be a few that do; I haven't been clicking on Ute articles to take inventory of them. But, I doubt that the number compares to the ute trolls we see that come to BYU articles to attempt to sow unhappiness. Many of them pretend to be disillusioned BYU fans.



I have, on more than one occasion, sat next to Utes in LES, that were there to cheer against BYU as the Cougs played someone else. One time was when BYU hosted Notre Dame in 2004. They came dressed in Ute gear, and were very loud whenever BYU suffered any set-back in the game. They were severely chagrined when BYU eventually won the game. Their weekend was ruined, because BYU didn't get blown out. What they said when they first sat down, was: "We came to watch you lose! Let the beat-down begin!" Then we all saw the story on the Ute who flew to Lincoln, Nebraska, just last September, expecting to celebrate a BYU loss there. He even positioned himself at the Cougar team bus, so he could heckle the BYU players as they came off the bus. Local sports writers were amazed that this guy would spend money, and travel that far, just for purposes of ill will.



I've never done any of these things. I'm sure that you guys have not, either. Do you know any BYU fans who have? There really is no comparison, no balance, in this kind of activity and obsession between the two fan bases.



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Fido wrote:

The above post nails it.



Frankly, I think there's a certain amount of disloyalty on the part of any active LDS member who roots against BYU. Non-LDS, ex-Mormons, jack-Mormons I get. By why root against the school that is owned by your Church and synonymous with it in the eyes of many non-members? Especially if you're rooting for its arch rival who, in addition to being all for a lot of things your church is against, got a PAC 12 invite partly because of anti-LDS bias, which shut BYU out. These are inconvenient questions most LDS Ute fans would rather ignore.

The above statement is really not fair at all.



First, religious loyalty is not tied to a specific educational institution. In fact, it can't. Even if you removed all non-LDS students from the school there is no way for it to accept all LDS applicants. So of those who cannot attend (due to proximity, qualifications, desired topic of study, etc.) they are somehow less "Mormon" if they cheer for the sports teams of their alma mater and not for BYU? Absurd.



Second, is it not hypocritical to say Mormons must cheer for BYU to be loyal--but residents of Utah don't have to cheer for Utah because it isn't BYU. My father is a Utah fan because he attended there, granduated, and made a living to provide for his family with the degree he obtained. So he cheers for BYU. He doesn't cheer for BYU because he has no ties there other than having a couple of his kids go there or know people who did. How is he obligated to cheer for BYU because he is Mormon? That also seems subjective and selective on what loyalties should be. There is no doctrinal or socially sound basis for judging someone based on the athletic team they support.



Third, if the University of Utah "all for a lot of things [our] church is against", why would the Church give them financial support? Yet they do. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865555628/LDS-Church-gives-4-million-for-new-University-of-Utah-law-school-building.html?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do they not discourage students from attending Utah? They don't--yet provide support for Utah students through an extensive institute program. There is no basis to say that Mormons should be loyal to BYU and not to Utah...or any other institution for that matter.



We could go on and on....but I think it is briefly said that sports fans will cheer for teams for which they have a personal connection. And that doesn't always include attendance. My EQ Pres is a Notre Dame who resides in Utah--and he doesn't cheer for either BYU or Utah. Where would he stand on the "Mormon loyalty scale"? He is a fan of that school due to family ties and experiences growing up that tie him there. Its all good. Fandom has no reflection on how loyal one is to their church.

I imagine the Church continues to donate money to the U because of the part of it that is still LDS.



I don't think it's something that has a consequence of where one ends up in eternity. I sort of look at it like reading the Salt Lake Tribune or the Deseret News. Why would anyone active LDS member choose to read the Tribune over the other paper when the Tribune typically takes the counter point to all things LDS?



I often wonder if LDS Ute fans are bothered by the part of their fanbase - and it's not a small part - that is anti-LDS and uses the rivalry as a way to cheer against all things LDS. Seems to me most turn a blind eye or downplay it. Or does it bother them that their school got the PAC-12 invite, in part, because of anti-LDS sentiment in that conference? Do they ever wonder about their school if a secular, anti-religious conference like the PAC-12 thought them a good fit?



These are rhetorical questions of course. I realize LDS Ute fans don't think about any of this stuff. To do so would require a level of honesty and self reflection most of them don't possess.



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BOID wrote:

BoiseBYU wrote:
Articles like that posted are mostly humorous, but these sorts of things are hardly black and white. Some of my best friends are Utah graduates and they are the most decent and kind people I know. They hope Utah beats BYU (just as I hope BYU wins) when they play, but otherwise don't pay too much attention. The fact of the matter is that a minority of morons (on both sides) get all the attention and this extremism is used to define the rivalry as suits them. Are there jerk Ute fans? Yes. Are there BYU jerk fans? Most assuredly. I've seen "bad" fans on both sides. They do not define the fan bases, however, and we should not allow them to.

I think you took off your blue goggles! :crazy:



But I admire your ability to see both sides. I try to do the same although I don't live in Utah and so don't have to deal with many Ute fans. It's very easy for BYU fans to say that (from their perspective) the Utah fans are the worse of the two, but then the Utah fans (from their perspective) say the exact same thing about BYU fans!

I also know people like you have described. Some of them are good friends. They are the normal fans. They cheer for their Utes, which is OK, and is as expected. They do not hate BYU, and I do not hate their team, yet we both hope for a victory over the other when our teams meet.



However, I do not know any BYU fans that buy tickets to Ute games vs third parties, just so that they can cheer against the Utes. I don't know any BYU fans that troll the comments section for Ute news articles. There may be a few that do; I haven't been clicking on Ute articles to take inventory of them. But, I doubt that the number compares to the ute trolls we see that come to BYU articles to attempt to sow unhappiness. Many of them pretend to be disillusioned BYU fans.



I have, on more than one occasion, sat next to Utes in LES, that were there to cheer against BYU as the Cougs played someone else. One time was when BYU hosted Notre Dame in 2004. They came dressed in Ute gear, and were very loud whenever BYU suffered any set-back in the game. They were severely chagrined when BYU eventually won the game. Their weekend was ruined, because BYU didn't get blown out. What they said when they first sat down, was: "We came to watch you lose! Let the beat-down begin!" Then we all saw the story on the Ute who flew to Lincoln, Nebraska, just last September, expecting to celebrate a BYU loss there. He even positioned himself at the Cougar team bus, so he could heckle the BYU players as they came off the bus. Local sports writers were amazed that this guy would spend money, and travel that far, just for purposes of ill will.



I've never done any of these things. I'm sure that you guys have not, either. Do you know any BYU fans who have? There really is no comparison, no balance, in this kind of activity and obsession between the two fan bases.



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I've not experienced or witnessed that, but to the degree it happens, it is sure twisted. What a pathetic way to go about one's life.

BOID wrote:

BoiseBYU wrote:
Articles like that posted are mostly humorous, but these sorts of things are hardly black and white. Some of my best friends are Utah graduates and they are the most decent and kind people I know. They hope Utah beats BYU (just as I hope BYU wins) when they play, but otherwise don't pay too much attention. The fact of the matter is that a minority of morons (on both sides) get all the attention and this extremism is used to define the rivalry as suits them. Are there jerk Ute fans? Yes. Are there BYU jerk fans? Most assuredly. I've seen "bad" fans on both sides. They do not define the fan bases, however, and we should not allow them to.

I think you took off your blue goggles! :crazy:



But I admire your ability to see both sides. I try to do the same although I don't live in Utah and so don't have to deal with many Ute fans. It's very easy for BYU fans to say that (from their perspective) the Utah fans are the worse of the two, but then the Utah fans (from their perspective) say the exact same thing about BYU fans!

I also know people like you have described. Some of them are good friends. They are the normal fans. They cheer for their Utes, which is OK, and is as expected. They do not hate BYU, and I do not hate their team, yet we both hope for a victory over the other when our teams meet.



However, I do not know any BYU fans that buy tickets to Ute games vs third parties, just so that they can cheer against the Utes. I don't know any BYU fans that troll the comments section for Ute news articles. There may be a few that do; I haven't been clicking on Ute articles to take inventory of them. But, I doubt that the number compares to the ute trolls we see that come to BYU articles to attempt to sow unhappiness. Many of them pretend to be disillusioned BYU fans.



I have, on more than one occasion, sat next to Utes in LES, that were there to cheer against BYU as the Cougs played someone else. One time was when BYU hosted Notre Dame in 2004. They came dressed in Ute gear, and were very loud whenever BYU suffered any set-back in the game. They were severely chagrined when BYU eventually won the game. Their weekend was ruined, because BYU didn't get blown out. What they said when they first sat down, was: "We came to watch you lose! Let the beat-down begin!" Then we all saw the story on the Ute who flew to Lincoln, Nebraska, just last September, expecting to celebrate a BYU loss there. He even positioned himself at the Cougar team bus, so he could heckle the BYU players as they came off the bus. Local sports writers were amazed that this guy would spend money, and travel that far, just for purposes of ill will.



I've never done any of these things. I'm sure that you guys have not, either. Do you know any BYU fans who have? There really is no comparison, no balance, in this kind of activity and obsession between the two fan bases.



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I've also never seen a bumper sticker that says "I'm for BYU and whoever Utah is Playing," but I have seen the Utah version a number of times.

So I had one of those awkward "I wish this guy would just stop talking" moments last night. After a long day at work and dreading going home and making something for dinner--not to mention the fridge is getting pretty picked over and we need to go grocery shopping--I texted my wife offering to pick up a Subway sandwich after work.

I walked in and there was an older couple with 3 small kids--looked like Grandpa and Grandma with the grandkids. They finished placing their order and were getting the veggies selected. Suddenly the guy turns to me and says loudly "Are you a BYU fan?". I look down and realize I'm wearing my BYU shirt and reply "Yes". Then he loudly asks "So what do you think of this whole basketball thing?" I just shrug my shoulders and start to order my sandwiches. He loudly proclaims, "Oh....that makes me SO mad!" About now, Grandma is patting his arm and telling him to be quiet as the grandkids are ready to pay for their sandwiches.

I guess living in Davis County (Ute country) makes some BYU fans feel the need to publicly backslap and discuss sports with everyone they come across. To me it felt more like a spectacle that was drawing the attention of everyone in the store who was just there to get something to eat.

On the flip side, later that evening I ran to the church for an activity and on my way out, a guy in a Ute jacket on his way in held the door open for me (in my BYU shirt) and we exchanged pleasantries as we passed. I much prefer the later interaction that I do the prior. Ah, life in Utah....